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In the Name of God بسم الله

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It is reported that one day the rain and thunder became severe for Jesus (‘a) so that he sought some place of shelter. Then a tent was set up for him in the distance, so he came to it. All at once, (he saw) there was a woman in it, so he turned from it. Suddenly, he saw a cave in a mountain, then he came to it. Then, all at once (he saw) there was a lion in it.

So he rested his hand against it (the cave), and said, “My God! For everything there is a shelter, but You put no shelter for me.” Then Allah, the Supreme, revealed to him, “Your shelter is in the abode of My Mercy. By My Greatness, on the Resurrection Day, verily, I will marry you to a hundred houris created by My hand, and verily for your wedding I will provide food for four thousand years, each day of which is like the lifetime of the entire world.

And I will command a crier to cry out, ‘Where are the ascetics of the world? Be present at the wedding of the ascetic Jesus the son of Mary.’

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11 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Thank you Maisam. However, neither of these narrations could be considered authentic, unless one holds the view that all narrations in Nahjul Balagha are authentic, which I don't.

 

Why does authenticity matter?

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18 minutes ago, Guest Enquirer said:

Why does authenticity matter?

Because we ought to verify whether an Imam (عليه السلام) has actually made those statements or not. If we do not verify, we may accept and follow teachings that were not taught by our Imams (عليه السلام).

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There are many narrations that encourage Muta'a. Having sex for pleasure, through Muta'a, is encouraged in Islam. 


Here's an authentic narration (and remember this is only one among many that encourage Muta'a)

وبالاسناد عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد ، عن سعد بن سعد ، عن إسماعيل الجعفي قال : قال أبو عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : يا إسماعيل ، تمتعت العام ؟ قلت : نعم ، قال : لا أعني متعة الحج ، قلت : فما ؟ قال : متعة النساء ، قلت : في جارية بربرية ، قال : قد قيل يا إسماعيل تمتع بما وجدت ولو سندية .

And by the isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Sa`d b. Sa`d from Isma`il al-Ju`fi.  He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: O Isma`l, have you done mut`a this year?  I said: Yes.  He said: I do not mean the mut`a of Hajj.  I said: So what then?  He said: The mut`a of women.  I said: With a Berber slave girl?   He said: It had been said, O Isma`il, do mut`a with what you find, even a Sindhi woman.

 

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16 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Because we ought to verify whether an Imam (عليه السلام) has actually made those statements or not. If we do not verify, we may accept and follow teachings that were not taught by our Imams (عليه السلام).

Nahjul balagha is considered authentic by Ayatullah Sistani (عليه السلام)

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I am not saying that mutah for pleasure is wrong.

What I am saying is that while on one hand Islam strongly encourages nikah and mutah, on the other hand it also tells us that fullfiment of sexual desire is not an absolute necessity. Marriage is wajib only for those who have fear of falling into sin. This means it is possible for a man to remain unmarried and still remain chaste all his life without ever committing a single sexual sin (like Isa(عليه السلام). I'm not saying a Muslim should become celibate. I'm saying that if the situation so demands, life-long chastity is not considered an impossible target to achieve in Islam (with divine help). 

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9 minutes ago, Maisam Haider said:

I am not saying that mutah for pleasure is wrong.

What I am saying is that while on one hand Islam strongly encourages nikah and mutah, on the other hand it also tells us that fullfiment of sexual desire is not an absolute necessity. Marriage is wajib only for those who have fear of falling into sin. This means it is possible for a man to remain unmarried and still remain chaste all his life without ever committing a single sexual sin (like Isa(عليه السلام). I'm not saying a Muslim should become celibate. I'm saying that if the situation so demands, life-long chastity is not considered an impossible target to achieve in Islam (with divine help). 

Muta'a (Fulfillment of sexual desires) is the sunna of The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). It is strongly encouraged, and there are plenty of authentic narrations to support this. 

I cannot imagine how a Muslim could be considered Muttaqi, if he or she, deliberately, and by choice, rejects the sunna of The Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

And since it is the sunna of our Prophet and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and highly encouraged, without strong evidence, I cannot imagine Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) chose to ignore it. 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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Everyone knows that sleeping around, and not under the context of a loving relationship or the occasional fling here or there, wether by halal or haram means, is wrong societally and it may likely ruin the reputation of both men and women. You can try to justify it however you want, but no one likes a person who is unwilling to control himself. The same applies for men in search of a permanent wife. No man likes a woman who has been around the block too many times. Why do you think women lie about their partner count? 

No matter how many women you find for mutah, I very much doubt that a Muslim man’s partner count will be in the 20s-50s like the average non-Muslim, simply because the community is way more tight-knit and prone to gossip, and a man won’t always be willing to give his daughter to be the source of someone’s temporary pleasure. It’s much harder to find women willing to do mutah than it is to commit Zina with someone you’ve met at a bar. 

Why are some trying to defend sleeping around? Most decent men would never do so. Just because something is acceptable, does not mean it doesn’t create a psychological impact on one’s self. Everyone knows that the more sexual partners one has, the less likely you are to be satisfied sexually in a permanent marriage because you’ll have experienced too many people to develop a commitment mindset. 

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Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) did not deliberately choose to remain unmarried. He remained unmarried because it was not possible for him to keep a wife. He was not allowed by Allah to keep any possessions. He did not have a home. He once picked up a nail he found on the ground one day to mend his shoe, but jibrael came down immediately and told him that Allah doesn't allow him to use that nail. So if he couldn't even posses a nail, how could he marry and maintain a wife. 

The lesson we learn from his life is that if someone is in a similar position where it is impossible for him to get married or do mutah (for example if an unmarried man is imprisoned for life), then he is expected to remain fully chaste and sin-free. This is because fullfiment of sexual desire is not an absolute necessity of life. Those who have the means to get married or do mutah, should do it. And those who don't get the means, should remain sex-free, even if it means life long celibacy (like Isa(as)).

 

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Maisam, if what you say about Isa (عليه السلام) is true, then clearly it is a very exceptional case, and wouldn't apply to ordinary individuals. 

If it's impossible for one to do Muta'a or Nikah, then of course, it wouldn't be expected of them to do so, and by not doing so, they wouldn't be disobeying God. However, it's quite rare for ordinary individuals to be in such position. 

Let's keep in mind that under exceptional cases, even eating Haram food is permitted, too. For example, if a man is stuck in prison for life, and they only serve pork in that prison, then it wouldn't be sinful for him to eat pork there.

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Why are some trying to defend sleeping around? Most decent men would never do so. Just because something is acceptable, does not mean it doesn’t create a psychological impact on one’s self. Everyone knows that the more sexual partners one has, the less likely you are to be satisfied sexually in a permanent marriage because you’ll have experienced too many people to develop a commitment mindset. 

 

It is fine as long it is done in Halal way and can avoid any type of sinning. Mut'ah is for sure better than individuals who can't control themselves or find a way and thus they rely to haram way. For people who seek development in their faith for surely will come to the point that they will start lack interest sexually in permanent marriage. This is actually very good thing because a person now is not much derived on sexual desires of his nafs. 

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21 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

For example, if a man is stuck in prison for life, and they only serve pork in that prison, then it wouldn't be sinful for him to eat pork there.

Yes pork would become permissible because he has no other option. But sexual sins will still not become permissible. For example, if an unmarried person is imprisoned for life and will never be able to get married or do mutah, it will still remain haram for him to do any sexual sins like masturbation. This is because fullfiment of sexual desire is an optional thing, it is not a necessity of life. Sexual desire can be suppressed to the point of being like non-existant, like our Imams(عليه السلام) did when they were imprisoned. 

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9 minutes ago, Maisam Haider said:

This is because fullfiment of sexual desire is an optional thing, it is not a necessity of life. Sexual desire can be suppressed to the point of being like non-existant,

Fulfilment of sexual desires is not optional. You're right. He can't masturbate. Instead, thanks to our physiology/biology, our sexual desires will be fulfilled through nocturnal emissions. 

Sexual health and desires are blessings from God. I find it mind-boggling that some people believe it must be suppressed for one to be spiritual. 

Enjoying God's blessings, through legal means, does not make us any less spiritual. 

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10 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

There's nothing holy or spiritual about starvation, hunger or sexual.

Nothing spiritual about fasting, you mean to say?

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34 minutes ago, starlight said:

Nothing spiritual about fasting, you mean to say?

Fasting and starvation are completely different. (I can't believe I need to say this!)

And let's make this very clear:

When we fast, sex, food, and drinks are on the same level. They're all forbidden equally. Like food and drinks, sex also quenches a need. They're equally important and necessary, for our physical and spiritual health. And when we fast, we put them all aside to obey God's commands.

Edited by SoRoUsH

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Salam, 

At this point, I've said all I needed and wanted to state. 

There are plenty of authentic narrations on the rewards of Muta'a and its encouragement. Muta's main purpose has been and is fulfilment of sexual desires. I won't state these narrations here. 

This'll be my last post in this discussion, and I'll leave you with an important authentic narration here .

 

    وعن محمد بن إسماعيل ، عن الفضل بن شاذان ، عن صفوان بن يحيى ، عن ابن مسكان ، عن عبدالله بن سليمان قال: سمعت أبا جعفر ( عليه السلام ) يقول : كان علي ( عليه السلام ) يقول : لولا ما سبقني به بني الخطاب ما زنى إلا شقي .

And from Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan from Safwan b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from `Abdullah b. Sulayman.  He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: `Ali عليه السلام would say: Were it not for what the Bunay al-Khattab preceded me with, none but a wretch would have fornicated.

 

Wa salamu Alaikom

Edited by SoRoUsH

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49 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Fasting and starvation are completely different. (I can't believe I need to say this!)

Abstinence, self control !!

If there weren't any spiritual benefits Allah wouldn't have told Muslims to control these physical needs. 

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullah

We must thank our brother @SoRoUsH for presenting a source-based perspective rather than judging based on social conventions and perceptions.

Islam has given us guidelines and rulings and unfortunately as a society we still tend to make our own rules and judgements on what is right and what is wrong leading to situations where people fall into haram because what is mustahab or sometimes even wajib has been socially rejected.

The title of the topic is Zina and why it's haram. The answer is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made it so. I refer everyone to the post made by our guest brother AbdulKarim on page 1 which sums up this topic very well.

Wallahu a'lam 

 

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11 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Everyone knows that sleeping around, and not under the context of a loving relationship or the occasional fling here or there, wether by halal or haram means, is wrong societally and it may likely ruin the reputation of both men and women. You can try to justify it however you want, but no one likes a person who is unwilling to control himself. The same applies for men in search of a permanent wife. No man likes a woman who has been around the block too many times. Why do you think women lie about their partner count? 

No matter how many women you find for mutah, I very much doubt that a Muslim man’s partner count will be in the 20s-50s like the average non-Muslim, simply because the community is way more tight-knit and prone to gossip, and a man won’t always be willing to give his daughter to be the source of someone’s temporary pleasure. It’s much harder to find women willing to do mutah than it is to commit Zina with someone you’ve met at a bar. 

Why are some trying to defend sleeping around? Most decent men would never do so. Just because something is acceptable, does not mean it doesn’t create a psychological impact on one’s self. Everyone knows that the more sexual partners one has, the less likely you are to be satisfied sexually in a permanent marriage because you’ll have experienced too many people to develop a commitment mindset. 

No one is defending people committing Zina, but I for instance replied to your logic that did not make sense.

All your thread has no logic. And stop painting out as if non-Muslims are sl*ts and our Muslim girls are so pious, sitting at home innocently. 

This thread is full of ignorant connotations. This is proof of how the Muslim communities living in the West and Europe have no clue whats so ever about what happens around them. Thats why Muslim communities living in Europe and United States will never evolve, because they keep going backwards.

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^ Lol you THINK that many non-Muslims aren’t sleeping around. That’s what I thought too until I learned the truth. The majority do. 

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If someone publicly stated a broad, judgemental and prejudicial, negative stereotype about Muslims, we would quickly condemn it as Islamophobia.  

What is it called when someone writes a post stating a broad, judgemental and prejudicial, negative stereotype about non-Muslims?

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

^ Lol you THINK that many non-Muslims aren’t sleeping around. That’s what I thought too until I learned the truth. The majority do. 

You are totally right here. Most non-Muslim men and women in this generation are in the double digits. How that is not common knowledge and obvious defeats me. 

To the brothers on here who are saying that X is technically permissible, can I remind you that there are many things that are technically permissible but can be abused and harm society, and there comes a stage where common sense has to be used here. While most men on here would probably marry a woman with a commitment mindset, Shia Islam doesn't exactly promote what people are claiming on here.

I mean, this is an extreme example , but if a woman didn't consulate her marriage, she could engage in sexual practises with dozens of men a day under Mutah, charge for it, live off that money without the need for any Iddah period. Is anyone here going to defend that? 

There is a reason we were given Aql, while rough boundaries exist, God didn't create blind sheep with no sense of context and intelligence. It has also been proven that having several partners (I think it was 5-6?) in one study led to higher marriage breakdown. I'll try to cite that later.

The need for food/water is on an entirely different level to that of sex. Sex is seen as far more sacred. What is the punishment for eating haram verses fornicating/having adultery, and which would one feel more guilty about and which would have a greater effect on society?

I would really advise people to be careful when posting Ahadith and discussing these issues so publicly, without important caveats as some sort of reactionary response, because I can almost guarantee you that we have an audience on here from the Sunnis who are going to use and weaponise what is said. 

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9 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

At this point I think SCers have a condition where they literally cannot resist bringing mutah into the mix in every single thread. :surrender:

Lots of people talking about something I would argue relatively few, if not remotely few, even practise (unless it's to talk freely before marriage).

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5 minutes ago, Guest Enquire said:

The need for food/water is on an entirely different level to that of sex. Sex is seen as far more sacred. What is the punishment for eating haram verses fornicating/having adultery, and which would one feel more guilty about and which would have a greater effect on society?

Please don't trivialize consumption of haram. It's amongst the greater sins and it's effects in the society are just as bad.

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3 minutes ago, starlight said:

Please don't trivialize consumption of haram. It's amongst the greater sins and it's effects in the society are just as bad.

This wasn't the point I was trying to make. There is no doubt eating harram publicly is without a doubt an enormous sin and has effects on society, but can you claim the punishment and the effects are the same as people being allowed to commit adultery and Zina left, right and centre? I am just trying to argue against this idea that sex is the same as food, and while we must observe due reverence when it comes to both, they can't be regarded as identical. 

What is the punishment for publicly eating harram food, verses committing adultery or Zina?

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On 4/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, SoRoUsH said:

A Muta'a could be as short as 5 minutes. It's sole purpose could be Halal sex.

Wow. So mutah could be halal prostitution?

From what I understand from your position: you think it is worse to have pre-marriage intercourse with the one you intend to marry and do eventually marry (without mutah) than to sleep around with no intention to marry by simply uttering a few magic words which makes it 'halal'?

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39 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Wow. So mutah could be halal prostitution?

Not very effectively. There is the iddah. I mean, technically yes. But the wife would have to request a much larger mahr than most men would be able and willing to pay in order to make it sustainable. 

Edited by notme

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Technically it is halal to sleep around with multiple partners as long as you follow proper Islamic guidelines.  It is true that women with past relationships are perceived negatively but that is a cultural problem for the most part, they shouldn't by default be judged harshly.  Such attitudes make it very difficult for eligible good practicing Muslims to marry again.  It is reasonable to be a bit suspicious of someone who has had a really high number of sexual partners, but we really should reserve judgement unless we know the details.  As for non Muslims, most of them do not have more than 30-40 sexual partners, the average tends to be less than 10.

Just to put things in perspective, as far as Islam is concerned, a woman that has had 10 sexual partners (through halal means) and doesn't backbite is morally superior to a woman that is a virgin but backbites times to time, all other things held equal.

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7 hours ago, BowTie said:

No one is defending people committing Zina, but I for instance replied to your logic that did not make sense.

All your thread has no logic. And stop painting out as if non-Muslims are sl*ts and our Muslim girls are so pious, sitting at home innocently. 

This thread is full of ignorant connotations. 

Agreed.

 

7 hours ago, BowTie said:

This is proof of how the Muslim communities living in the West and Europe have no clue whats so ever about what happens around them. Thats why Muslim communities living in Europe and United States will never evolve, because they keep going backwards.

This is a bit of an overreach! but I agree that you cannot build a strong community tainted with blind ignorance and bigotry.  Something we do need to be aware of so as not to inadvertently perpetuate an archaic style of demean and diminish as a (flawed) means of establishing ourselves, and as you say, with the potential to go backwards.

Edited by forte

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1 hour ago, forte said:

If someone publicly stated a broad, judgemental and prejudicial, negative stereotype about Muslims, we would quickly condemn it as Islamophobia.  

What is it called when someone writes a post stating a broad, judgemental and prejudicial, negative stereotype about non-Muslims?

How so? I conducted a poll asking how many partners one has had, have done a lot of research, and have non-Muslim friends. Many do sleep around to get over breakups, to fill a void, have a few drinks before it leading to sex. Are you saying I’m incorrect? 

To everyone: I’m not saying that Muslims don’t sleep around at all, or that we are all virginal elvish beings who have never even spoken to the opposite sex—some Muslims sleep around, just less often. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Wow. So mutah could be halal prostitution?

From what I understand from your position: you think it is worse to have pre-marriage intercourse with the one you intend to marry and do eventually marry (without mutah) than to sleep around with no intention to marry by simply uttering a few magic words which makes it 'halal'?

I know you weren't asking me, but to me it's a no brainer that of course the latter is infinitely better than the former. 

.“The fornicatress and the fornicator, scourge you each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for them withhold you from enforcing the sentence of Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.” 24:2

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21 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Sexual health and desires are blessings from God. I find it mind-boggling that some people believe it must be suppressed for one to be spiritual.

If someone can neither get married nor do mutah, then ofcourse there is no third option - he has to suppress his desire. This is not just to be spiritual, it is obligatory. 

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