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In the Name of God بسم الله
AmirioTheMuzzy

How LGBT Sex-activists Push their Agenda

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Salaam

Are you the one posting this all over Reddit as well?

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Guest Itsme

This was an amazing video, but my only question is: why does Iran allow people who are fully biologically male to undergo gender reassignment and become "females"? 

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2 hours ago, Guest Itsme said:

This was an amazing video, but my only question is: why does Iran allow people who are fully biologically male to undergo gender reassignment and become "females"? 

I don't think Iran allows this. I think Iran only allows gender reassignment for intersex people. I do not know though.

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10 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I don't think Iran allows this. I think Iran only allows gender reassignment for intersex people. I do not know though.

This is not what is being told in documentaries and information sites about the issue. I have always doubted it, but the only information that has reached me all the time is that it recognizes transsexuality. And even in many cases, passes homosexuality as transsexuality.

It is a shadowy thing, but as it has already passed so much time, and nobody seems to make it clear, I understand that anyone not fitting in the original gender can undergo the sex reassignment process.

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18 hours ago, Guest Itsme said:

This was an amazing video, but my only question is: why does Iran allow people who are fully biologically male to undergo gender reassignment and become "females"? 

It wasn't amazing at all. Half of what they say is a lie. "Gay people promote pedophillia and beastality". That's not what it's about. It's about acceptance. These guys take one person's extreme views and apply them to all LGBT supporterrs. Which is ironic, because it's the same logic people use to say "All Muslims are Isis". They're fear-mongering and hate the West for promoting tolerance. They haven't once said why they think being gay is bad. There was one video where they said it's OK to bully gay people. (They showed an example of a learning objective that was "bad": Teaching kids not to bully other kids based on race, gender, sexuality. Their videos, while not promoting terrorism, are likely to produce terrorists, or people shooting up gay nightclubs. Islamic Pulse's videos are dangerous for society. They promote hatred, which is the opposite of what the Prophet wanted. The Prophet said to treat all people with respects and the two monsters in the Mackinations series do the opposite of that.

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8 hours ago, Bakir said:

This is not what is being told in documentaries and information sites about the issue. I have always doubted it, but the only information that has reached me all the time is that it recognizes transsexuality. And even in many cases, passes homosexuality as transsexuality.

It is a shadowy thing, but it has already passed so much time, and nobody seems to make it clear, I understand that anyone not fitting in the original gender can undergo the sex reassignment process.

Iranian authorities legalize sex change even if you are not an hermaphrodite. If you have some feelings with the same sex than you and you can’t change they encourage you to change sex. However when you become a man or woman you are supposed to be that sex and thats all and not a "gender fluid" or some stuffs like that. Iranian authorities consider that when you are a man or a woman you act like a man or a women and not otherwise even if you change your sex (so if you were a woman and become a man you will act like a man and not like a woman).

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33 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Iranian authorities legalize sex change even if you are not an hermaphrodite. If you have some feelings with the same sex than you and you can’t change they encourage you to change sex. However when you become a man or woman you are supposed to be that sex and thats all and not a "gender fluid" or some stuffs like that. Iranian authorities consider that when you are a man or a woman you act like a man or a women and not otherwise even if you change your sex (so if you were a woman and become a man you will act like a man and not like a woman).

Yeah, that's what I guessed. It's a way to avoid homosexuality mostly. A wrong approach I must say, as sexual orientation and identity are two different things.

I believe we lack education in homosexuality in Islam within our communities. Changing sex is not the best solution we can get, for any part (neither it is beneficial for the State's economy, nor it is for the individual).

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On 4/6/2019 at 6:17 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Yes

Damn, you're not posting the videos because you agree with it. You're posting it to show people that it's bad. I officially love you. (Not in that way) You're awesome.

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On 4/8/2019 at 1:47 AM, Bakir said:

Yeah, that's what I guessed. It's a way to avoid homosexuality mostly. A wrong approach I must say, as sexual orientation and identity are two different things.

I believe we lack education in homosexuality in Islam within our communities. Changing sex is not the best solution we can get, for any part (neither it is beneficial for the State's economy, nor it is for the individual).

Salaam brother,

How r they different? What do you think should be the solution / support / education for each?

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Guest GuestofDunya
On 4/8/2019 at 1:05 AM, Mohammadi_follower said:

Iranian authorities legalize sex change even if you are not an hermaphrodite. If you have some feelings with the same sex than you and you can’t change they encourage you to change sex. However when you become a man or woman you are supposed to be that sex and thats all and not a "gender fluid" or some stuffs like that. Iranian authorities consider that when you are a man or a woman you act like a man or a women and not otherwise even if you change your sex (so if you were a woman and become a man you will act like a man and not like a woman).

Interesting how Islamic pulse is also talking about the “transgender” topic in lgbt.. not sure how they reconcile this with their views, since they seem to support Iran’s policies.

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5 hours ago, Guest GuestofDunya said:

Interesting how Islamic pulse is also talking about the “transgender” topic in lgbt.. not sure how they reconcile this with their views, since they seem to support Iran’s policies.

This is not the same thing. By transgender we talk about people who are biologically a man or a woman but psychologically they think otherwhise ( they think they are in reality part of the other sex or don’t have a particular sex without changing biologically their sexual attributes) while in Iran like I said when authorities permit you to change sex you are supposed to act after that according to the laws that the country attribute to your present sex.

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8 hours ago, Guest GuestofDunya said:

Interesting how Islamic pulse is also talking about the “transgender” topic in lgbt.. not sure how they reconcile this with their views, since they seem to support Iran’s policies.

Why is that interesting?

LGBT litteraly stands for:

lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender.

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On 4/7/2019 at 5:47 PM, Bakir said:

Changing sex is not the best solution we can get

What would you say is the better solution to people who wish to have sex and relationships with the same gender in an Islamic society without getting punished according to sharia?

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I am actually not really surprised finally that few Muslim countries apply sharia laws fully nowadays. Brunei which is a pro western and rich countries had many problems recently for applying sharia, so I don't want to imagine what would happen for poorer Muslim countries. 

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

What would you say is the better solution to people who wish to have sex and relationships with the same gender in an Islamic society without getting punished according to sharia?

Your answer is within your question. There is no room for this officially in an Islamic society. When such cases are identified, sex reassignment shouldn't be encouraged. It is as dangerous and psychologically damaging as dysphoria is for transexual individuals.

Homosexuality, as a condition, shall be acknowledged and accepted. Same sex unions, however, are not acceptable within an Islamic society. Thus, people having this condition shall either leave the country due to an ideological clash or choose what I honestly believe it is our most islamically appropriate fate: celibacy. This is where education enters. Demonizing our condition without having any idea of its dimensions, and proposing unreasonable solutions as sex reasignment is what I call ignorance. Some points:

1. Many homosexuals lack sexual drive due to the influence of their Islamic beliefs, as well as the prolongued lack of sexual interest (this is for example my case).

2. Many homosexuals find their religion even more influential and inherent to them than their sexual orientation, even if they can't change it (they can't change their beliefs either).

3. Many homosexuals find it easier to control their desires than to fit in an Islamic society due to marriage/social pressures.

4. Many homosexuals, even if ocassionally/eventually may be sexually active, acknowledge it as a sin and try to get control over their own desires, the best way they can.

This is a sexual orientation, which is a very different condition from gender dysphoria and transexuality. Education is required to understand it, to know how it affects us homosexuals, to know how it affects our religion, and to understand in which way we can live as Muslims and at the same time have this condition. Education is also required for society to understand what it is to be homosexual, and that it doesn't necessarily imply certain lifestyle, ideology, or desires.

Many Muslim gays I've had the pleasure to meet are willing to sacrifice much more than I've ever expected merely for their religion, and are amazing individuals and Muslims. Others aren't excelling in any way, but try to keep in good terms with their faith. For me these people aren't any less Muslims, nor need any sex change nor anything except respect and support. They are people, nothing else. They are not a problem someone has to solve.

Changing our sex isn't our Islamic duty, nor a sign of taqwa in any way. Plus, desires vanish with the pass of time. Being a woman implies much more than having sex with a guy, and being gay implies much less than that actually.

Edited by Bakir

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On 4/7/2019 at 11:05 AM, Mohammadi_follower said:

Iranian authorities legalize sex change even if you are not an hermaphrodite. If you have some feelings with the same sex than you and you can’t change they encourage you to change sex. However when you become a man or woman you are supposed to be that sex and thats all and not a "gender fluid" or some stuffs like that. Iranian authorities consider that when you are a man or a woman you act like a man or a women and not otherwise even if you change your sex (so if you were a woman and become a man you will act like a man and not like a woman).

do you have a source for this? As personally I'm not sure if that is true.

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On 4/7/2019 at 11:47 AM, Bakir said:

Yeah, that's what I guessed. It's a way to avoid homosexuality mostly. A wrong approach I must say, as sexual orientation and identity are two different things.

I believe we lack education in homosexuality in Islam within our communities. Changing sex is not the best solution we can get, for any part (neither it is beneficial for the State's economy, nor it is for the individual).

I always thought homosexual Muslims should be encouraged to practice Jihad al nafs cause they have to live with not fulfilling their desire for the rest of their life in order to be on the path of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Same as a guy who is heterosexaul but has no chance of mutah s its hard to perform nor can he get married. 

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

Thus, people having this condition shall either leave the country due to an ideological clash or choose what I honestly believe it is our most islamically appropriate fate: celibacy

Do you have any Islamic backing in your conclusion with regards to celibacy as a permanent solution to homosexual tendencies? Are there any hadiths supporting that or is it your personal opinion?

Also, your scenarios seem to be built around people with a gay orientation who either abstain from commiting the sin or have done it rarely and deeply regrets it. However, what would you say is the solution for a Muslim with gay orientation who do not have the strength to abstain and gives in over and over again?

Finally, do you believe that all cases of people with gay orientation are permanently fixed in that orientation or that they can shift and in such cases what do you believe is the factor that sets one case apart from the other?

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2 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Do you have any Islamic backing in your conclusion with regards to celibacy as a permanent solution to homosexual tendencies? Are there any hadiths supporting that or is it your personal opinion?

Also, your scenarios seem to be built around people with a gay orientation who either abstain from commiting the sin or have done it rarely and deeply regrets it. However, what would you say is the solution for a Muslim with gay orientation who do not have the strength to abstain and gives in over and over again?

Finally, do you believe that all cases of people with gay orientation are permanently fixed in that orientation or that they can shift and in such cases what do you believe is the factor that sets one case apart from the other?

It's hugely a personal opinion due to the lack of sources, not in Islamic texts, but in our scholarly interpretation. So far, the norm is that if we fear sin, we shall marry to avoid it. This makes absolute sense and may be potentially efficient for heterosexuals. However, it is exactly the contrary for homosexuals, as you accept, through marriage, a responsibility you may/will fail to meet towards your wife. In the other hand, it won't satisfy your needs, but create a problem for you. As per our Islamic sources, we know homosexual practices, in any way, are strictly forbidden. So, that leaves us celibacy as the most appropriate path, but again, this is not a scholarly opinion (nor there is one as far as I know).

As for the case of someone who is not able to control himself, that person is not homosexual, but suffer from an illness. In al Kafi (v5), the Prophet saww was informed about a homosexual. He asked the companions who informed him if he did it in his house, enjoying his privacy, or outside, out of control. They said he acted upon his desires in his house. He then told them that person is not suffering from any illness, but enjoying his (sinful) desires. If it was an illness, he would have no control over where he does it. But as he does, that means he's not ill, but perfectly conscious of his acts. Homosexuality is an orientation, but you decide what you do.

Lastly, change may be possible, as sexuality is fluid. But generally speaking, you don't change it consciously. In my experience, without any effort from my behalf, I'm closer to asexuality than anything else. Not because I'm celibate, but because I actually lack romantic/sexual desire. This is a notable change I feel within myself that, even though not a pleasing and significantly bitter sweet feeling, it is convenient.

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12 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I am actually not really surprised finally that few Muslim countries apply sharia laws fully nowadays. Brunei which is a pro western and rich countries had many problems recently for applying sharia, so I don't want to imagine what would happen for poorer Muslim countries. 

Salam , I don't see real doing of Sharia law in Sunni countries because base of their jurisprudence comes from enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) that mixed pre Islamic Arab laws with some Islamic rules also practicing Sharia law in Iran wasn't completely successful  because many of some traditions & laws that inherited from Shah Era also there is still lack of good training for stuff that are applying sharia law which many times they act very harsh that their videos are releasing by anti regime groups so many time forced Iran to postpone applying many religious laws because of mistakes of sharia stuff that spreads immediately in media by  Anti regime groups that a group of them call themselves as anti islsm & sharia law that they are receiving support from westerner countries the irony is that Farsi  speaking wahabi channels are supporting them & sometimes they are inviting them to their channels & pay them money from KSA

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10 hours ago, TryHard said:

do you have a source for this? As personally I'm not sure if that is true.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

Perspective of a western Shia journalist on lgbt

I agree with most of it but being gay isn't a crime as he claims but they can punished when they break Islamic law that for verifying it in Shia fiqh 4 men most see whole of action & intercourse  clearly that raping happens & that four witness must remain steadfast on their claim if one of them fall in doubt or denies his witness ,the three remaining witness must be punished & guilty person will release also if they remain on their word they most be first persons that will punish that person & if one of refuses nobody can punishes guilty person &  three remaining witness must be punished & guilty person will release

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I agree with most of it but being gay isn't a crime as he claims but they can punished when they break Islamic law that for verifying it in Shia fiqh 4 men most see whole of action & intercourse  clearly that raping happens & that four witness must remain steadfast on their claim if one of them fall in doubt or denies his witness ,the three remaining witness must be punished & guilty person will release also if they remain on their word they most be first persons that will punish that person & if one of refuses nobody can punishes guilty person &  three remaining witness must be punished & guilty person will release

Yes alhamdulillah I have always thought of it as a deterrent since there’s not much probability for 4 ppl to see. But do you know if it has to be in public or can it be in private (4 ppl walk in a room). 

I was not aware of the 3 ppl issue. How are the 3 remaining witnesses punished, maybe that 1 person fell back on his word because he was scared of the punishment for the homosexual?

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Re the gender reassignment thing.... It seems to be common (quite generally, not just among religious people, although I have seen it in shiachat) that people assume gay people who take the passive sexual role are playing the role of a female, or want to be female or something like this. I think this feeds into the idea of reassignment as a solution to the problem of homosexuality. It's also quite misguided, imo. As already pointed out, it's about orientation, not gender. For a start, I don't think these active/passive concepts even apply to lesbians at all. For men, they are men who are attracted as men to men and most of them do not limit their sexual options according to perceived notions of male/female roles.  You might as well give someone a horse's tail as gender reassignment surgery for all the relevance it has to male/male or female/female attraction. Basically it is a way for straight people to shoehorn gay people into something that they can get their head around. 

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Gender identity is a separate issue from sexual preference. They are related, but not the same. Not every homosexual is body dysphoric. 

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4 hours ago, notme said:

Gender identity is a separate issue from sexual preference. They are related, but not the same. Not every homosexual is body dysphoric. 

Actually, the norm is that homosexuals don't suffer from dysphoria (or at least how trans do). Otherwise you might be trans and straight, and have nothing to do with homosexuality.

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7 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Actually, the norm is that homosexuals don't suffer from dysphoria (or at least how trans do). Otherwise you might be trans and straight, and have nothing to do with homosexuality.

I have always assumed that the majority of trans people are homosexual, but I know at least one who is not, and I don't know that many people, so it's not improbable that my assumption is wrong. 

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9 hours ago, Ejaz said:

I have sometimes a lot of difficulties to consider this person a Shia or even just a Muslim. 

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2 hours ago, TryHard said:

I meant in Iran if one is gay do they automatically encourage sex change operation as a solution there?

Salam , no but if they want to do it we have religious & medical support system for it because ,it’s hard for them with this situation in our community & also they face problem from their family there is no automatic policy exists 

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8 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Yes alhamdulillah I have always thought of it as a deterrent since there’s not much probability for 4 ppl to see. But do you know if it has to be in public or can it be in private (4 ppl walk in a room). 

I was not aware of the 3 ppl issue. How are the 3 remaining witnesses punished, maybe that 1 person fell back on his word because he was scared of the punishment for the homosexual?

Salam it’s about private because a sane persons won’t do it in public & it’s virtually impossible that you find these 4 witness with this situation also Shia fiqh punishment mostly is for committing sins in public but ignores sins in private except sinner himself/herself comes to court & confesses to his/her sin four separate times that it’s completely rare & as I know only happened for murders cases that murderer couldn’t satisfy his/her soul & keeps that secret anymore but it doesn’t happen for sexual sins 

the witnesses must be 4 men & reducing number of witnesses to lesser than that make any testimony invalid but it can be in different forms like as 3 man  & two woman or two man & four woman combination that is just a formula but it doesn’t happen in reality 

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