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RepentantServant

I'm debating an atheist & I would like a good response to these questions

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Earlier today, I posted on my snapchat story saying how God created time and space. He created the phenomenon of causation. Thus, a being that created the universe & the constants that govern it, is not bound by them.

And a girl responded to me by saying, ' How can you prove God created time and space. '   In which case I gave her the whole 'He is an unlimited being, while we ourselves are limited. We can't comprehend Him with our limited minds' and that sort of argument. I also mentioned God has no beginning, nor an end etc. (I'm not going to type out my entire response for the sake of time as I'm sure most of you already know & understand what my main argument was). 

This was all through messages that I saved in our chats, so everything is word for word. I told her I'd take my time to address each of her points directly.

And she responded by saying: 'You'll have to elaborate more on what it means for God to have no beginning nor an end. How is it possible? Why do you call the human mind limited? In what way are we limited and why would we? We've created air crafts that cross oceans in hours, we've created technology where we have the whole world in the palm of our hands available for anytime we please. You say we barely understand ourselves and the world around us but how could you say this when we have outstanding scientists, physicists, astrophysicists that have intensely dedicated their lives to understanding how the universe works and how it was created and all their bases are heavily supported by real evidence and proven right time and time again. (With that being said, nothing is ever 100% accurate). With all due respect to your opinions, but your answer or argument is somewhat of an insult to human intellect. There are many things we definitely can not comprehend but the work of all these scientists have gotten us closer and closer to the truth than any other time in the world. And they continue to get closer to the truth and try incredibly hard to make sense of the world which has gotten us very far. You preach we are limited when we constantly push the limits to understand why and how we are here. How is God unlimited? What does that even mean? And I still didn't get a valid answer for how God created time and space. It makes no logical nor scientific sense.'

Now I already have many things I could say, but I'd rather hear some ideas and brainstorm. She also mentioned this is a topic she's passionate about, and that she isn't doing this to argue with me, rather she's genuinely asking questions for knowledge. 

 

 

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I'd start with making a point of how we are bound to the physical, the material world - whereas God, the creator, is not. We have a beginning and end point through the set limitations of this state of life from birth to death. We are in Dualism, whereas God is not.

Perhaps question her why she holds onto Materialism as the Absolute, rather than a form of Idealism (which many forms of Physics these days seem to be indicative of).

Also remind her that Science (well, true science at least) is the study of the world within our limited ways of testing and hypothesizing the way it functions, it can only really describe "what" most of the time. It is not here to (nor can it) prove or disprove God, or even the Prophets - That is rather in the realm of PHILOSOPHY. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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I can't help but chuckle.  I think she got you goood.

But on a more serious note: 

You should agree with her and tell her that the human intellect is essentially unlimited.  But this unlimited human-intellect is what you are calling God.  

The point I am making is that you have to speak to her in her own language.  For her the word God means something limited, a mere imagination.  So stop using the word "God".  For her, there is something about the human being that is unlimited, perhaps she calls it the human mind, intellect.. or whatever.

Now, in order for you to go this route, you would need to, first of all, see God in the human being.  Try to separate for her what is truly unlimited in the human from what is limited in the human.  Each and every single thing has two faces, a limited face and an unlimited face.  In every thing you can choose to see God or not.     

 

 

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5 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The world of science is rapidly merging into the world of the mystic, as scientists are expanding their understanding to grasp the unavoidable truth that the world is not divided, not constituted of multiple ‘things’ and events, but is a unified whole.....................

This was something I was considering mentioning myself but thought it would over-complicate things. However, your post is very great Shams :)

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

You should agree with her and tell her that the human intellect is essentially unlimited.  But this unlimited human-intellect is what you are calling God.  

this premise is not correct in reality.
also, this premise will not convince him, because she is doubtful about the possibility of unlimited existence,
she didn't understand the meaning of unlimited because of this word:

21 hours ago, RepentantServant said:

In what way are we limited and why would we? We've created air crafts that cross oceans in hours, we've created technology where we have the whole world in the palm of our hands available for anytime we please. You say we barely understand ourselves and the world around us but how could you say this when we have outstanding scientists, physicists, astrophysicists that have intensely dedicated their lives to understanding how the universe works and how it was created and all their bases are heavily supported by real evidence and proven right time and time again

she thinks whereas we can improve our knowledge we are unlimited, while if we were unlimited we didn't need improvement of knowledge.
if she accepts God is unlimited because he can improve himself this is not God, this God is not most perfect, and has defectiveness
in fact if we can improve we are not unlimited, we are imperfect.
yes the path of perfection is open for us unlimitedly but this is not the meaning of unlimited existence 

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8 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The Quantum Field Theory states that “particles” (I.e., the most reduced elements of “matter”) are nothing but “excited states” of the featureless Ground state of the energy field. In other words, the “featureless Ground,” the absolute Void, is manifesting as forms (or, at least, instrumental recordings of forms). 
Whether we call It “the featureless Ground,” or “the Absolute,” or “Allah,” It is the same One. And if we expand this Quantum Field Theory to include all of the cosmos, since ultimately everything is made of such “particles,” and begin to see everything as one undifferentiated energy-field, we also begin to lose the old sense of cause-effect relationships. For, when space is time, and matter is energy, we can no longer find a clear distinction between what is and what happens, between the actor and the action. One scientific writer says, “At the subatomic level, and consequently at all levels, the actor and the action are one.”

 Scientists have now understood and acknowledge what the Prophets of Allah have known and experienced directly for thousands of years.

 

you are right but almost most scientists don't accept metaphysic, their effort is to describe the universe with material and physic, in their view, God is not touchable, observable  and there is no effect of his action in the world and all happening can be explained by physic laws

in our view God created those constant laws that we can explain the world with those laws

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1 hour ago, Sayed Hossein said:

in their view, God is not touchable, observable  and there is no effect of his action in the world and all happening can be explained by physic laws

 

Furthermore @RepentantServant, because your friend expects God to be proven through empiricism, she is bound to be unsatisfied with your answers and think will you are using the "God of gaps"  fallacy to justify your beliefs. Somewhere along the line, you made a mistake which has led to her asking you how people are limited  and God is unlimited. If she is sincere in seeking knowledge, I'd recommend her to take a course in philosophy or familiarize herself in metaphysics.

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Salam between Shia speakers Hasanain Rajabali did more debates with atheists you can search about his debates with them for your further talks

Dan Barker vs Hasanain Rajabali - Does God not exist - 2003

Atheism and Agnoticism Q &A -Hasanain Rajabali

Evolution of God | Prof. Hasanain Rajabali

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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she thinks whereas we can improve our knowledge we are unlimited, while if we were unlimited we didn't need improvement of knowledge.
if she accepts God is unlimited because he can improve himself this is not God, this God is not most perfect, and has defectiveness
 in fact if we can improve we are not unlimited, we are imperfect.
 yes the path of perfection is open for us unlimitedly but this is not the meaning of unlimited existence 

 

This knowledge is God knowledge (Whatever exist it is from Existence that actualise it) that He have given to human beings, if human still have memory or intellect, the knowledge will be passed to one to other. But it is impossible that human in this realm can improve the knowledge unlimitedly, because one day they perish all together.

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 3/29/2019 at 5:50 AM, RepentantServant said:

How is God unlimited? What does that even mean?

These are complicated theological issues, difficult to talk about.  

Unlimited and limited are very vague and ambiguous terms; indeed one could say that God is limited. For instance I can scratch my head while God is unable to do so. 

And in the broadest sense, this could count as a "limitation". However, these kinds of definitions are not relevant when it is said that God is not limited. 

What is meant by 'unlimited' is that God is not limited in 'ability'. That is, God is unlimited in every power that He possesses.

If we define "God" as "the Creator", then we know that any faculty/power that exists does so because of God. 
From God spring all abilities and since we are defining God to be the creator/ source of all abilities, then there cannot possibly be any limit on these abilities, because God has the power to create them.

Therefore God is unlimited, since there isn't any other power that He is dependent on; He is the source of His own abilities and by being the Creator, there isn't a limit on the amount of that ability that God possesses.

I hope that might help in your discussion.   :)

wslm.

*

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

Therefore God is unlimited, since there isn't any other power that He is dependent on; He is the source of His own abilities and by being the Creator, there isn't a limit on the amount of that ability that God possesses.

I hope that might help in your discussion.   :)

 

Dan Barker vs Hasanain Rajabali - Does God not exist - 2004 (just from Muslim side) 

 

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Guest NoGodbutAllah

As Theists or Atheists, there comes a point in time when even our intellect can not make sense of the reality of existence. I don't doubt that we possess an intellect hitherto unknown, the capacity for insight, reflection, and as humanity the push towards advancements in so many fields. However, it is a sign of intellect to recognise what it has no place in trying to limit.

We both accept that something has always had to exist, by nature or necessity of its own existence, or nothing would exist. Let us for sake of argument, say that the material universe, or a multiverse, or some kind of quantum realm or alternative model (based on physical reality) has always existed. This itself is so beyond the comprehension of the human being, which would ask: well where did that come from?  There has to come a point in time where something has had to simply exist, by nature or necessity of its own existence, and the human mind can not comprehend something "just existing". 

While the scientific method is a very useful - albeit not entirely perfect - tool as discerning how the material world around us works, it can not help us ascertain questions surrounding the origin of existence itself, whereby you need rational arguments. Even with rational arguments, we still don't solve the mystery as to how something can just exist, because it is beyond our comprehension, as we often look for an origin for everything. 

However, we can use our rational mind to ascertain the properties of something that can not just exist. As Theists or Atheists, we both believe something has always had to exist - as mentioned shortly prior -by nature or necessity of its own existence, or nothing would exist. We believe that the material universe and physical reality can not exist necessarily - it is contingent. If something is necessary, it merely exists. If it has always just existed, it can not come into being, undergo change, decay, or have arbitrary properties. The constants of our universe could have been anything else, the universe itself came into being, its laws came into being when they once did not exist, and it too will undergo a freeze death. Within it, the components are subject to decay, change, and alteration and are one intrinsically just existent in one state.

Whatever has always just existed can not be limited like this. It must be immaterial, spaceless, formless, transcendent and with the power to bring the universe into being. That is what we refer to when we say 'God'  or 'Allah'. Of course, there is more to touch on and elaborate as to the  attributes, but this should suffice as a introduction.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Sayed Hossein said:

this premise is not correct in reality.
also, this premise will not convince him, because she is doubtful about the possibility of unlimited existence,
she didn't understand the meaning of unlimited because of this word:

Then we should make her understand but in her own language.  

 

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17 hours ago, Sayed Hossein said:

you are right but almost most scientists don't accept metaphysic, their effort is to describe the universe with material and physic, in their view, God is not touchable, observable  and there is no effect of his action in the world and all happening can be explained by physic laws

in our view God created those constant laws that we can explain the world with those laws

Quantum Phsyics can only be understood and made to make sense of metaphysically.  Scientists of today are coming to realize this more and more.  

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18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Quantum Phsyics can only be understood and made to make sense of metaphysically.  Scientists of today are coming to realize this more and more.  

We hope so but unfortunately, as I know they will not interfere metaphysics in the scientific method, there are exceptions  in everywhere but we must take the general way as a base for  reasonable negotiation

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2 hours ago, Sayed Hossein said:

yes but in right meaning and in away that would not against our beliefs

I thinks we should just throw away our beliefs as they are all wrong.  

We should only accept what we know for certain... and this is our immediate experience. Anything else is useless and not worth our time.  

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Guest Observer

The reality is this, there is no argument for the existance of God or His being or His how, etc you can explain and argue His case based on explaining what He is, simpley because even before your trying to explain Him, you already have a problem of explaining His other creation like the universe etc , we can’t explain and logic can’t be used to address his reality as proof of an argument about His existance

we can only use logic of relation to argue about His existence so like circumstantial evidence , our own belief in God requires faith, it is based on faith and nothing else, and hence the only way to prove to a person God is for that person to find God himself, but that person has to actually attain a certain level of faith on their own and purify themselves to a certain degree before God Himself presents His existence to that individual

Even the Imams when they argues about the existance of God argues from the point of view of His creation, such as how things run like a clock, the perfection in the mechanism the order in creation, the inverted and exerted relation between things based on need of their survival such as we have lungs atmosphere has air etc

So actual belief in God requires faith and faith alone, or at least purity to see the overall picture of life and its various realities, and that is what makes a person believe in God, really even the Qur'an doesnt tell you to argue with people, but rather just declare what you believe and move on and the whole religion Dawah is not supposed to be based on arguments of existence but rather dmonstration of how that religion and faith makes u a better and more moral and functional person, the proof is supposed to be in your tolerance and patience and gentleness and just general betterment of a person , so religion is supposed to show its proof by your difference in character and how it is more better for a person , which is the whole point

All of the Imams and Prophets converted people not based on arguing etc but usually their sublime character was what attracted people to them, and when they acted this way it wasnt to impress a person but genuine action which then in turn was noticed and remembered and then thought about later on and eventually drawn people to truth

In reality Imams and Prophets could have shown miracles to people but they never subsided on this to prove their case, and usualy people would come up with some justification for it anyway, like Jinn or trickery or some other nonsense that they usually did spout

So best bet is don’t even argue with them, God says in the Qur'an that he is the one who guides and misguides and that He doesnt guide until a person genuinely is looking for guidance , arguing is just a waste of time and even if you argue based on science they always find some excuse for what u say, cause lets face it science is not even truth its just some human definition that could be wrong anyway , so of course it might be used as a counter argument that leave u without a response because it was false ot begin with, and if u deny science they just say ur un-intelligent so which way u go u can’t win

Usually if I talk to non believers of God I don’t try to convince them about God's existance through science, rather I ask what problem do you have with the existence of God? Cause usualy most atheists the reason they are atheist is because they can’t fathom why a God would allow so much death and suffering inthe world and usualy thats their root cause of disbelief , and id rather talk about that with them , they say why do babies die, why do children get disease, why arent rapists punished instantly, why is so much death allowed and donbody intervenes, why is there animals that devour other animals in really excruciating and gorish ways, why do lions eats gazelles, why did God make one if it was going to be food for other, etc , and they argue how thats cruel and unlucky if the creature happens to be born a gaezelle, so for them it makes more sense to believe that by chance these things ended up cause nobody would create such an cuthroat and devestating system full of death and destruction and suffering etc only evil would create such things etc and hence the find it easier to accept that it was by chance that things ended up the way they did and nobody's fault cause it can’t be possible that somebody is that evil to allow and create such a system etc

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Brother, these may help:

Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله‎‎) debating Atheists. Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq  (عليه السلام) debating an Atheist.

 

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:43 PM, eThErEaL said:

I thinks we should just throw away our beliefs as they are all wrong.  

We should only accept what we know for certain... and this is our immediate experience. Anything else is useless and not worth our time.  

I am not certain that this is right, so Im going to throw it away as it's  useless : )

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On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 4:50 PM, RepentantServant said:

Earlier today, I posted on my snapchat story saying how God created time and space. He created the phenomenon of causation. Thus, a being that created the universe & the constants that govern it, is not bound by them.

And a girl responded to me by saying, ' How can you prove God created time and space. '   In which case I gave her the whole 'He is an unlimited being, while we ourselves are limited. We can't comprehend Him with our limited minds' and that sort of argument. I also mentioned God has no beginning, nor an end etc. (I'm not going to type out my entire response for the sake of time as I'm sure most of you already know & understand what my main argument was). 

This was all through messages that I saved in our chats, so everything is word for word. I told her I'd take my time to address each of her points directly.

And she responded by saying: 'You'll have to elaborate more on what it means for God to have no beginning nor an end. How is it possible? Why do you call the human mind limited? In what way are we limited and why would we? We've created air crafts that cross oceans in hours, we've created technology where we have the whole world in the palm of our hands available for anytime we please. You say we barely understand ourselves and the world around us but how could you say this when we have outstanding scientists, physicists, astrophysicists that have intensely dedicated their lives to understanding how the universe works and how it was created and all their bases are heavily supported by real evidence and proven right time and time again. (With that being said, nothing is ever 100% accurate). With all due respect to your opinions, but your answer or argument is somewhat of an insult to human intellect. There are many things we definitely can not comprehend but the work of all these scientists have gotten us closer and closer to the truth than any other time in the world. And they continue to get closer to the truth and try incredibly hard to make sense of the world which has gotten us very far. You preach we are limited when we constantly push the limits to understand why and how we are here. How is God unlimited? What does that even mean? And I still didn't get a valid answer for how God created time and space. It makes no logical nor scientific sense.'

Now I already have many things I could say, but I'd rather hear some ideas and brainstorm. She also mentioned this is a topic she's passionate about, and that she isn't doing this to argue with me, rather she's genuinely asking questions for knowledge. 

 

 

Consider her argument and acknowledge her premises that indeed all the things she said, indicates that we (humans) are capable of many things.

Then tell her, the simple fact that we believe in a Prophet and Imams that are the definition of a Perfect Human Being and they have told us that there is a God. 

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On 3/30/2019 at 6:30 AM, Quisant said:

These are complicated theological issues, difficult to talk about.  

Unlimited and limited are very vague and ambiguous terms; indeed one could say that God is limited. For instance I can scratch my head while God is unable to do so. 

And in the broadest sense, this could count as a "limitation". However, these kinds of definitions are not relevant when it is said that God is not limited. 

What is meant by 'unlimited' is that God is not limited in 'ability'. That is, God is unlimited in every power that He possesses.

If we define "God" as "the Creator", then we know that any faculty/power that exists does so because of God. 
From God spring all abilities and since we are defining God to be the creator/ source of all abilities, then there cannot possibly be any limit on these abilities, because God has the power to create them.

Therefore God is unlimited, since there isn't any other power that He is dependent on; He is the source of His own abilities and by being the Creator, there isn't a limit on the amount of that ability that God possesses.

I hope that might help in your discussion.   :)

wslm.

*

 

"Unlimited and limited are very vague and ambiguous terms; indeed one could say that God is limited. For instance I can scratch my head while God is unable to do so. 

And in the broadest sense, this could count as a "limitation". However, these kinds of definitions are not relevant when it is said that God is not limited. 

What is meant by 'unlimited' is that God is not limited in 'ability'. That is, God is unlimited in every power that He possesses."

You are limited by your perception and your awareness of space time it's like a square saying a cube cannot exist because in 2d space the idea of 3d simply seems like skewed dots.

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

That would be a good place to start, just keep on applying that to everything else now.

You don't throw away anything arbitrarily. You be truly critical and skeptical - you take everything, step back and look at both the small and big picture. The small-picture itself can be the most deceiving to the Ego however. 

Even though any atheists would scoff at me saying it (well it's kinda guaranteed by category anyway) but if I wasn't critical and skeptical of myself and my beliefs in every respect, I would not have ended up becoming a Muslim in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, HakimPtsid said:

You don't throw away anything arbitrarily. You be truly critical and skeptical - you take everything, step back and look at both the small and big picture. The small-picture itself can be the most deceiving to the Ego however. 

Even though any atheists would scoff at me saying it (well it's kinda guaranteed by category anyway) but if I wasn't critical and skeptical of myself and my beliefs in every respect, I would not have ended up becoming a Muslim in the first place. 

Well, the point I am making is that anything that is subject to doubt, ambiguity, or uncertainty will inevitably reveal itself to be unreal and therefore false.  So as far as the metaphysical level is concerned (not the level of convention) there is no need (and frankly no room) to start judging something, it ought to be seen for what it really is (namely transient, illusory, and apparently real).  That is what I mean by “throw it away”.  But what you are saying still has value at a more conventional level.

Edited by eThErEaL

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Guest Thales
On 3/30/2019 at 1:26 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

 

 

I don't know if that atheist is ignorant or a liar (usually they're both), but Thales DID NOT say organisms are made from water, he said EVERYTHING is made from water, including mountains, fire, and dirt. And that everything will go back to being water eventually. He also believed that the Earth floats on water. So not really the same as the what the Qur'an said. The atheist is yet again, and as ever, wrong. 

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Alhamdulilah, By nature souls want to believe in Allah but for disbelievers it’s more rebellion. They hate the idea of having to to submit to Allah and his laws. They would rather be free of accountability then having to submit to Allah. They want to be their own Gods or worship their own gods which can even be science.  Funny how in the moment of extreme danger, God is the first name people call out for help, even Atheist. We don’t make the Muslims. You can talk to her until she’s blue in the face but if she is deep in disbelief (rebellion) no logical sound argument will make sense to them. It’s whats in the heart. 

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On 3/29/2019 at 1:50 AM, RepentantServant said:

In what way are we limited and why would we? We've created air crafts that cross oceans in hours, we've created technology where we have the whole world in the palm of our hands available for anytime we please.

Lol the arrogance is strong. Seems all she knows is what we do know and nothing about what we don't know.

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