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Akbar673

Standard Anti-Shia attacks & how to respond to them

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:salam:

So as someone who has spent some time on many Sunni forums in the past, seeing the same tired and pathetic attacks that they use on Shi'a to both marginalize and to delegitamize us, in not only the eyes of Moderate Sunnis, but also in the eyes of the rest of the world. I thought it would be best if we created a list of the same analogies that they use on us and to list the proper way to respond to them in order to discredit the accuser, as well as to get the word out as to the truth of what they are accusing us of.

Please feel free to add to this list whatever you think is missing. I'm creating this list as not only a way to get the truth out there to defeat our attackers, but to also educate lesser knowledgable Shi'a on the truth. Once we have a good list going then we can work on discussing the accusations and formulating a response to those attacks.

Here we go with an initial list that I came up with...

  1. Occultation 
  2. Mutah
  3. Taqiyah
  4. Insulting Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ayesha, etc...
  5. Status of the Sahaba
  6. Azadari/Matam
  7. Imamate
  8. Infallibility of not only the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) but previous Prophets (عليه السلام).
  9. Abu Talib was not a Muslim
  10. Mushaf of Fatima (عليه السلام)
  11. Khums
  12. Praying only 3x a day
  13. Predestination
  14. Corruption of the Qur'an
  15. Karbala more holy than Mecca (Ziyarat of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as more important than Haj)
  16. Loyalty to Iran at the expense of their homelands.
  17. Treatment of Baha'I in Iran (this is a new one that the West is using to discredit Iran as lacking Human Rights)
  18. The Siege of Baghdad in 1258

Please add to this list whatever you think is relevant. 

I think its important that we first create a master list of everything that our enemies use against us so that we can educate not only ourselves but others on this in order to defeat them. Once that list is done we can then begin an analysis of the list point by point.

Knowledge is power.

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Good idea, please add these:

Abu Bakr led the prayers when the Prophet saw was ill

Abu Bakr was mentioned in the Qur'an as being the companion with the Prophet in the cave

Prophet's judgement of character - why would he be close with certain individuals, ie Ayesha and Abu Bakr if they did so much wrong.

Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will the Prophet to be buried next to wrongdoers

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) eventually giving baya to Abu Bakr 

Why didn't Imam Ali resist against Abu Bakr

Why did Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) relinquish his claim and cede to Muawiyah

"I don't see how that matters" or "it was just politics" in regards to succession

Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will Abu Bakr, Uthman and Umar to be caliphs if they were in the wrong

"Why don't you just get over it? " in regards to commemorating Karbala

"There are no historic accounts of Imam al Askari having a child" (existence Imam Mahdi aj)

"33:33 is talking about the wives of the Prophet, why would it change subject in the same verse?" 

"Name an ayatollah who is hafiz" or "why are your clerics tajweed so poor"

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9 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Good idea, please add these:

Abu Bakr led the prayers when the Prophet saw was ill

Abu Bakr was mentioned in the Qur'an as being the companion with the Prophet in the cave

Prophet's judgement of character - why would he be close with certain individuals, ie Ayesha and Abu Bakr if they did so much wrong.

Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will the Prophet to be buried next to wrongdoers

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) eventually giving baya to Abu Bakr 

Why didn't Imam Ali resist against Abu Bakr

Why did Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) relinquish his claim and cede to Muawiyah

"I don't see how that matters" or "it was just politics" in regards to succession

Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will Abu Bakr, Uthman and Umar to be caliphs if they were in the wrong

"Why don't you just get over it? " in regards to commemorating Karbala

"There are no historic accounts of Imam al Askari having a child" (existence Imam Mahdi aj)

"33:33 is talking about the wives of the Prophet, why would it change subject in the same verse?" 

"Name an ayatollah who is hafiz" or "why are your clerics tajweed so poor"

Yes, but aren't these topics that can be incorporated into the responses to their attacks? Those all seem to be responses to their attacks, not necessarily the attacks themselves. Your points are more along the lines of Shi'a attacks on Sunnis.

I.e. the question you posted about "Why did Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) relinquish his claim and cede to Muawiyah" is something that can be used in the response we give to the Wahabbi attack on Shi'a regarding Imamate.

See what I mean ?

We need to compile a list of common Wahabbi attacks, we can add responses to those attacks during the discussion of each point.

Edited by Akbar673

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I'm sorry but I do not see how these can be construed as Shia "responses".

Being previously Sunni and speaking with Sunnis, these are common questions or statements I have heard and come across from Sunnis.

In regards to Imam Hassan v Muawiyah, if anything the issue is framed against our concept of Divine appointment...why would Imam relinquish to a corrupt leader for eg

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Points I would like to see a response to which I have heard:

1. Why do Twelvers have so few source Hadith books/how can we rely on Twelver 'Mutawatir' Hadith when they are only Mutawatir according to an individual Hadith compiler (or with few supporting narrations in other books)? I think I have heard of there being 20 or so books of Twelver hadith whereas Sunnis apparently have hundreds of books from across the Islamic world which corroborate a lot of what is already in the Sahihus Sittah which would prove Hadith to be Mutawatir from multiple sources rather than being reliant on the judgement of one Hadith compiler.

2. How can you trust Zurarah? One of the attacks I have heard is that the positive Hadith about him are narrated by his children could show bias.

3. Why do most Twelvers believe that Fatimah miscarried at the hands of Umar when most narrations are weak and the versions of events all differ?

4. The Prophet SAW commanded Ali for raised graves to be levelled and for no one to take graves as places of worship or to build structures/Masajid over them, and they were being levelled during the time of Imam Shafi'I (which is long before the time of Ibn Abdul Wahab). So why do Twelvers have so many shrines and have a Masjid at Karbala.

5. Can it not be argued that the Twelvers copied the idea of occultation from the Shia of Muhammad Bin Ali Al Hanafiyyah who were the first to claim (many years before Twelvers) that their Mahdi had gone into occultation to return at a later time to establish justice?

6. Is the Twelver Shi'ism the same as the Twelver Shi'ism of early Shia scholars like Sheikh Suduq who believed things like only thr Ghulaat chang the Adhaan to add Ali Waliullah, etc?

7. Why are most Twelver Hadith weak/the narrators unknown?

8. Why are there so few Sahih narrations which go back to the Prophet SAW?

9. Is it just assumed that narrations going back to the Imams go back to the Prophet SAW?

10. Many Twelvers claim that Sunni hlHadith constitute propaganda from Banu Ummayah; how can this be substantiated given that many Hadith were compiled during the Abbasid period when anything pro Banu Ummayah was clamped down on?

11. If Twelvers can claim Sunni Hadith are manipulated by the Ummayids, can Sunnis not claim that Twelver Hadith is tainted by extreme Kufan propaganda?

12. The early Imams lived in Madinah whereas Hadith narrators were from Kufa - to what extent can we trust the Kufans for narrations?

13. What actually is the criteria for Sahih and Da'if hadith according to Twelvers, and do Twelvers even care (like are weak Hadith accepted anyway normally)? It doesn't seem to matter whats aunthentic on the pulpit but when it comes to debates with Sunnis, Twelvers reject various Hadith as being 'weak'.

14. Is it not a form of Taqiyyah to tell Sunnis that they respect Sahabah or do not hate Aisha or Umar or Abu Bakr etc given the concept of Raj'ah where the Mahdi will raise the Imams and the 'enemies of the Ahlul Bayt' and they will proceed to toruture them and get revenge on them.

15. It is claimed Twelvers rarely mention Allah on the Mimbar but always go on about the Ahlul Bayt and their stories and so on. This isn't to say Allah doesn't matter, but is this not obsessive?

16. Why do Twelvers reinterpret 'Abi' to mean 'uncle' rather than 'father' for the idol making relative of Ibrahim AS?

17. Do Twelvers have a comprehensive biography of the life of the Prophet SAW or other Prophets and Messengers which are not reliant upon Sunni Hadith or historical works and only upon Twelver Hadith?

18. Do Twelvers have Israeliyaat Hadith? 

19. Was Ali really born in the Ka'aba and are there authentic narrations for this? Why does it matter (or doesn't it)?

20. Why do Twelvers pretend to pray behind Sunnis when really they pray on their own but just synchronise their movements with the Jamaat?

 

I'll find more questions later. Not every question is directly an attack on Ithna Ashariyyah but they could imply defect or incompleteness of knowledge, so I have included these types too.

Edited by Ar.alhindi

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Salam,

Why do some Shias insult some of the companions of the Prophet (S) when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never insulted them and in fact would protect them and make sure no one harms them?  

A case in point:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) advised Umar not to fight in the front lines while Umar was a caliph because he didn’t want Umar’s life to end too early as he was the Caliph of Muslims.  If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) cared so much for life while Umar was a caliph how dare certain Shias curse Umar?  If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) ordered Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to protect Uthman’s life while he was a caliph who Shias accuse of practicing nepotism, then how dare certain Shias curse him when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) desired to protect him?

 

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On 3/26/2019 at 6:00 PM, Akbar673 said:

 

  1. Occultation 
  2. Mutah
  3. Taqiyah
  4. Infallibility of not only the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) but previous Prophets (عليه السلام)
  5. Mushaf of Fatima (عليه السلام)
  6. Khums
  7. Corruption of the Qur'an
  8. Karbala more holy than Mecca (Ziyarat of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as more important than Hajj

.

 

On 3/26/2019 at 7:23 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

Points I would like to see a response to which I have heard:

1. Why do Twelvers have so few source Hadith books/how can we rely on Twelver 'Mutawatir' Hadith when they are only Mutawatir according to an individual Hadith compiler (or with few supporting narrations in other books)?

2. How can you trust Zurarah?

3. Why do most Twelvers believe that Fatimah miscarried at the hands of Umar when most narrations are weak and the versions of events all differ?

5. Can it not be argued that the Twelvers copied the idea of occultation from the Shia of Muhammad Bin Ali Al Hanafiyyah

6. Is the Twelver Shi'ism the same as the Twelver Shi'ism of early Shia

7. Why are most Twelver Hadith weak/the narrators unknown?

11. If Twelvers can claim Sunni Hadith are manipulated by the Ummayids, can Sunnis not claim that Twelver Hadith is tainted by extreme Kufan propaganda?

12. The early Imams lived in Madinah whereas Hadith narrators were from Kufa - to what extent can we trust the Kufans for narrations?

13. What actually is the criteria for Sahih and Da'if hadith according to Twelvers,

14. Is it not a form of Taqiyyah to tell Sunnis that they respect Sahabah

17. Do Twelvers have a comprehensive biography of the life of the Prophet SAW which are not reliant upon Sunni Hadith or historical works ?

These are some questions. Im keen to know the 12er answers. 

Edited by Warilla

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On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

1. Why do Twelvers have so few source Hadith books/how can we rely on Twelver 'Mutawatir' Hadith when they are only Mutawatir according to an individual Hadith compiler (or with few supporting narrations in other books)? I think I have heard of there being 20 or so books of Twelver hadith whereas Sunnis apparently have hundreds of books from across the Islamic world which corroborate a lot of what is already in the Sahihus Sittah which would prove Hadith to be Mutawatir from multiple sources rather than being reliant on the judgement of one Hadith compiler.

Salam Shias don’t have just one Hadith compiler also having more books doesn’t prove that Sunni Hadiths have more authenticity for example like as many books written by Christians based on Christianity & scientists Belief that Earth is center of galaxy but it refuted by few books even now many cemented ideas that repeats in every book can be questioned but we as Shias compare every Hadith with Qur'an that is only reliable book 

 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

2. How can you trust Zurarah? One of the attacks I have heard is that the positive Hadith about him are narrated by his children could show bias.

It’s like as why Sunnis trust so much to Abuhuraira although if you research about Zurarah you will understand that he wasn’t a liar like as Abuhuraira & also was top student & companion of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) that was always most of times with Imam that students of Inam Sadiq (عليه السلام) like as abuhanifa we’re founders of Sunni school of taughts althought they weren’t top notch students as Zurrah (رضي الله عنه) but Abuhuraira just joined to Prophet (pbu) in two last years of his life & doesn’t receive education from him also it recorded by Sunni sources he was corrupted by wealth of enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

Why do most Twelvers believe that Fatimah miscarried at the hands of Umar when most narrations are weak and the versions of events all differ?

These narrations are not weak except you deny strong Sunni hadiths from sahib Sitah but story of her death from  illness comes from weak narrations that propagate by Wahabists to make excuse for second caliph 

 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

4. The Prophet SAW commanded Ali for raised graves to be levelled and for no one to take graves as places of worship or to build structures/Masajid over them, and they were being levelled during the time of Imam Shafi'I (which is long before the time of Ibn Abdul Wahab). So why do Twelvers have so many shrines and have a Masjid at Karbala.

A raised grave & later shrine built over grave of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) few days after his martyrdom but it destroyed by Ummayid & Abbasids multiple times & rebuilt by Shia Imams & Muslims everytime but grave of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was hidden except for few ones until time of Harun the Abbasid caliph & time of Imam Kadhim (عليه السلام) because of hatred of ummayids & abbasid caliphs toward him until time of Imam Kadhim (عليه السلام) also if the Hadith was strong why Muslims built shrine over grave of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & put it as place of worship that mentioned in Sunni sources too also Qur'an approves rising buildings that name of Allah mentiones on them 24/7 like as Shia Imams shrines 

 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

5. Can it not be argued that the Twelvers copied the idea of occultation from the Shia of Muhammad Bin Ali Al Hanafiyyah who were the first to claim (many years before Twelvers) that their Mahdi had gone into occultation to return at a later time to establish justice?

6. Is the Twelver Shi'ism the same as the Twelver Shi'ism of early Shia scholars like Sheikh Suduq who believed things like only thr Ghulaat chang the Adhaan to add Ali Waliullah, etc?

 

It’s opposite the idea of occultation comes from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that verified by Imam Ali(عليه السلام)  and both Shia & Sunnis belived to it before Muhammad Hanafyia but it derived to wrong way like as done by Ismailis by support of anti Shias like as ummayids & zubairis that most of doubts started by zubairis that followed by ummayids & Abbasids 

adhan not changed by Shias also ‘ Ali Waliullah’ used by companions like as Salman Farsi (رضي الله عنه) & ITV verified by Prophet Muhammad (pbu) but he didn’t make it compulsory  

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

7. Why are most Twelver Hadith weak/the narrators unknown?

8. Why are there so few Sahih narrations which go back to the Prophet SAW?

9. Is it just assumed that narrations going back to the Imams go back to the Prophet SAW?

 10. Many Twelvers claim that Sunni hlHadith constitute propaganda from Banu Ummayah; how can this be substantiated given that many Hadith were compiled during the Abbasid period when anything pro Banu Ummayah was clamped down on?

11. If Twelvers can claim Sunni Hadith are manipulated by the Ummayids, can Sunnis not claim that Twelver Hadith is tainted by extreme Kufan propaganda?

12. The early Imams lived in Madinah whereas Hadith narrators were from Kufa - to what extent can we trust the Kufans for narrations?

13. What actually is the criteria for Sahih and Da'if hadith according to Twelvers, and do Twelvers even care (like are weak Hadith accepted anyway normally)? It doesn't seem to matter whats aunthentic on the pulpit but when it comes to debates with Sunnis, Twelvers reject various Hadith as being 'weak'.

7.its just your claim 

8.9.every hadith from Shia Imams backs to Prophet (pbu) but for shortening we don’t mention it ,it is a book of ‘Jami’ that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) written by Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & rest of Imams  narrated from it that whole of it will show by Imam Mahdi (aj) after his reappearance that a portion of it that is necessary until time of reappearance narrated by Shia Imams (عليه السلام) during their lifetime also we have Imam Mahdi(aj) as living Imam that in charge of preservation of Qur'an & Shia hadiths 

10 .both Abbasids & ummayids had same policy their difference were on following what branch the ummayid branch or Abbas lineage but both had same agenda as each other 

11.because we have Imam Mahdi (aj) that fixes errors & Qur'an for judging hadiths 

12.Imams weren’t always in Medina all of them were forcing specially last 4 Imams before Imam Mahdi (aj) forced by Abbasids to move to other cities other than Medina into current Iraq under their supervision so they were more near to Kufa than Medina also Kufa was a center for Shias until time of 11th Imam that most of their students were coming from Kufa that after 11th Imam Cities like as Najaf & Karbala became more important than Kufa but after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) Kufa will become center of his government like as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

14. Is it not a form of Taqiyyah to tell Sunnis that they respect Sahabah or do not hate Aisha or Umar or Abu Bakr etc given the concept of Raj'ah where the Mahdi will raise the Imams and the 'enemies of the Ahlul Bayt' and they will proceed to toruture them and get revenge on them

We respect sahabas that kept respect of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) but we condemn ones that stand against Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) the saga of torture & revenge invented by anti Shias to attack idead of Raj’ah & narrations about torture & revenge are very weak because contradicts with Qur'an & policy of rest of Ahlul Bayt & Shia Imams (عليه السلام)

 

On 3/26/2019 at 11:53 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

15. It is claimed Twelvers rarely mention Allah on the Mimbar but always go on about the Ahlul Bayt and their stories and so on. This isn't to say Allah doesn't matter, but is this not obsessive?

 16. Why do Twelvers reinterpret 'Abi' to mean 'uncle' rather than 'father' for the idol making relative of Ibrahim AS?

 17. Do Twelvers have a comprehensive biography of the life of the Prophet SAW or other Prophets and Messengers which are not reliant upon Sunni Hadith or historical works and only upon Twelver Hadith?

18. Do Twelvers have Israeliyaat Hadith? 

19. Was Ali really born in the Ka'aba and are there authentic narrations for this? Why does it matter (or doesn't it)?

 20. Why do Twelvers pretend to pray behind Sunnis when really they pray on their own but just synchronise theIr movements with the Jamaat?

15. Listen to original Shia lectures from Shia channels also Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  says nobody can’t understand him but we  can understand his existence from his creations & signs that Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are best examples for this issue 

16.his name was Azar that wasn’t name of father of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) but was like father to him also we have narrations from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that said “me & Ali are fathers of Muslims ‘ but it doesn’t mean that they are physical fathers but they are spiritual & religious fathers of Muslims 

17. It mentioned in Shia narrations by Shia Imams but not collected well as Sunni sources 

18.it’s accepted by people like as Ayatollah haidary but he says it’s very lesser than Sunni narrations & most of it inserted to Shia Hadith by common hadiths between Shia & Sunnis from Sunni sources 

19.its even proven by authentic Sunni sources , it’s important because he is only person that born inside the most holy place even about Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as it mentioned in Qur'an Lady Maryam had to go to an abandoned place & went out of Solomon templeto in order to gives birth to Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as rest of Prophets (عليه السلام) & Shia Imams born in normal & c,ean places but all of born outside any holy place so birth of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has greater meaning 

20. We really pray behind Sunnis & our prayers valid behind them but for unity we pray with intention of Single prayer with synchronization with rest of Muslims but we don’t accept the leadership of Sunni Imam in prayer but our prayers behind them are true & valid that doesn’t need repeating by ourselves as we pray in Kaaba with Jamaat but we consider Imam Mahdi (aj) as our leader in prayer during Hajj not unjust Saudi leader that leads the prayer 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 3/26/2019 at 11:30 PM, Akbar673 said:

:salam:

So as someone who has spent some time on many Sunni forums in the past, seeing the same tired and pathetic attacks that they use on Shi'a to both marginalize and to delegitamize us, in not only the eyes of Moderate Sunnis, but also in the eyes of the rest of the world. I thought it would be best if we created a list of the same analogies that they use on us and to list the proper way to respond to them in order to discredit the accuser, as well as to get the word out as to the truth of what they are accusing us of.

Please feel free to add to this list whatever you think is missing. I'm creating this list as not only a way to get the truth out there to defeat our attackers, but to also educate lesser knowledgable Shi'a on the truth. Once we have a good list going then we can work on discussing the accusations and formulating a response to those attacks.

Here we go with an initial list that I came up with...

  1. Occultation 
  2. Mutah
  3. Taqiyah
  4. Insulting Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ayesha, etc...
  5. Status of the Sahaba
  6. Azadari/Matam
  7. Imamate
  8. Infallibility of not only the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) but previous Prophets (عليه السلام).
  9. Abu Talib was not a Muslim
  10. Mushaf of Fatima (عليه السلام)
  11. Khums
  12. Praying only 3x a day
  13. Predestination
  14. Corruption of the Qur'an
  15. Karbala more holy than Mecca (Ziyarat of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as more important than Haj)
  16. Loyalty to Iran at the expense of their homelands.
  17. Treatment of Baha'I in Iran (this is a new one that the West is using to discredit Iran as lacking Human Rights)
  18. The Siege of Baghdad in 1258

Please add to this list whatever you think is relevant. 

I think its important that we first create a master list of everything that our enemies use against us so that we can educate not only ourselves but others on this in order to defeat them. Once that list is done we can then begin an analysis of the list point by point.

Knowledge is power.

Brother all the issues of differences you have listed are important and critical.

As for me there is valid Quranic background for most of these points except.

1. Insulting Abu Bakr ,Umar ...

You have no strong evidence from Qur'an and teachings of Ahlebayt as to Insult any one, except you can politely convey historic facts of misconduct.

2.The Issue of Abu Talib as is not basic of our beliefs , so difference of view' has no much importance.

3.Regarding Sahaba  many Shias view  is not justified and it needs to be corrected.Defnitely most Sahaba were pious people .Even if there's were some wrong doing by Sahba and I don't think it is to used a pretext to keep talking bad .

Because we know non of Sahaba were infallible.So it's quite possible that there might some wrong doing.so it's not justified neither teaching of Islam to talk bad if someone has done some mistake.

But  again there  is one more exception in Sahaba namely Muawiyah whose actions repeatedly and deliberately were against basis of Isalam and indicating enemity of Ahlebayt as .So you have justification to bring those facts to public  and disown him loudly.

3.It is not Shia belief that Karbala is holier than Mecca.Defnitely it's Mecca and Medina that' is holiest place's.

4.Regardin corruption of Qur'an there's is difference in Shia Muslim  with views on either side. 

Yes there's is also Sunni sources that' indicates corruption of Qur'an.

But at end both Shia and Sunni have  one and same Qur'an .

4.Azadari has backing from Qur'an and narrations of Prophet saww.But our some unjustified rituals and actionshas made it counter productive.

Seige of Baghdad, Loving Iran and others is political issues.That has nothing to do with Shia Islam.

At end fighting and qurereling on differences is done only by those who don't know true' teachings Islam.

Because both sects have most  common basics that is enough for one's salvation.

And qurereling on differences may lead one away from true Islam.

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22 minutes ago, islam25 said:

The Issue of Abu Talib as Is not basic of our beliefs , so difference of view' has no much importance.

 3.Regarding Sahaba  many Shias view  is not justified and it needs to be corrected.Defnitely most Sahaba were pious people .Even if there's were some wrong doing by Sahba and I don't think it is to used a pretext to keep talking bad .

Because we know non of Sahaba were infallible.So it's quite possible that there might some wrong doing.so it's not justified neither teaching of Islam to talk bad if someone has done some mistake.

He was protector of Prophet (pbu) & was in position of his deceased father also he was father of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so any disrespect to him or calling himself as unbeliever is an insulting to both Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali(عليه السلام) also based on Sunni standard for Sahabas he was from Sahaba that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) were from Sahaba but anti Shia Wahabi channels for their enmity toward Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are insulting to Abutalib (رضي الله عنه) & censoring 3 Imams as Sahabas but choose Muawiah (la) as Sahaba against them although his father & himself cursed by Prophet Muhammad (pbu) but they interrpret it as blessing from him but they attack Abitalib (رضي الله عنه) That they don’t miss any opportunity to attack Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Shias indirectly by attacking to Abutalib (رضي الله عنه) but by their attack to him they attack to prove Muhammad too indirectly but they don’t care & don’t count him as Sahaba .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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17 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

He was protector of Prophet (pbu) & was in position of his deceased father also he was father of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so any disrespect to him or calling himself as unbeliever is an insulting to both Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali(عليه السلام) also based on Sunni standard for Sahabas he was from Sahaba that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) were from Sahaba but anti Shia Wahabi channels for their enmity toward Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are insulting to Abutalib (رضي الله عنه) & censoring 3 Imams as Sahabas but choose Muawiah (la) as Sahaba against them although his father & himself cursed by Prophet Muhammad (pbu) but they interrpret it as blessing from him but they attack Abitalib (رضي الله عنه) That they don’t miss any opportunity to attack Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Shias indirectly by attacking to Abutalib (رضي الله عنه) but by their attack to him they attack to prove Muhammad too indirectly but they don’t care & don’t count him as Sahaba .

That is ok.

But Abu Talib is not our basic pillar of Islam.

Our pillar is Tawheed , Adal , Risalat , Immamah and Maad.

Definitely the Wahhabi will pay their enmity .

 

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11 minutes ago, islam25 said:

That is ok.

But Abu Talib is not our basic pillar of Islam.

Our pillar is Tawheed , Adal , Risalat , Immamah and Maad.

Definitely the Wahhabi will pay their enmity .

 

He is not pillar of Islam but connected to both Rislat & Imamate but the Wahabists by attacking to him think that they attack Imamate doctrine of Shias but also they attack Risalat & Sahaba doctrine that is very important for traditional Sunnis .

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Has my post been lost in oblivion.  I would like to know why some Shias curse and insult the first three Caliphs when Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) tried their best to protect their lives in their capacities as Caliphs.  How and why would some Shias insult them when the the Imams helped them and protected them. If truly the Caliphs were “enemies” of Islam due to them going against EXPLICIT & OPENLY PUBLIC dictates by the Prophet (S) to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام), then why in the world would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) still try to support the Caliphs for the sake of the Ummah when the Ummah knew without any doubt that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the only rightful leader appointed by the Prophet (S)?

 

ill just answer it:

it is a big lie those Shias utter and an unjustified insult to the Caliphs (رضي الله عنه)!  :)  

Edited by eThErEaL

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

Why do some Shias insult some of the companions of the Prophet (S) when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never insulted them and in fact would protect them and make sure no one harms them?  

A case in point:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) advised Umar not to fight in the front lines while Umar was a caliph because he didn’t want Umar’s life to end too early as he was the Caliph of Muslims.  If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) cared so much for life while Umar was a caliph how dare certain Shias curse Umar?  If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) ordered Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to protect Uthman’s life while he was a caliph who Shias accuse of practicing nepotism, then how dare certain Shias curse him when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) desired to protect him?

 

Well, lets not stop on Uthman please!!! Move ahead and present the case of Muawiyah (L) too. Imam Hassan (asws) made peace treaty with him and handed over the caliphate to him. 

If you think Muawiyah (L) was a genuine LAEEN, you can do some reverse engineering to get to those who have appointed him, strengthen him and supported him throughout their tenure of caliphate.

 

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

Well, lets not stop on Uthman please!!! Move ahead and present the case of Muawiyah (L) too. Imam Hassan (asws) made peace treaty with him and handed over the caliphate to him. 

If you think Muawiyah (L) was a genuine LAEEN, you can do some reverse engineering to get to those who have appointed him, strengthen him and supported him throughout their tenure of caliphate.

 

No.  He too is not to be cursed.  So that won’t work.  

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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No.  He too is not to be cursed.  So that won’t work.  

Muawiyah has done worst crime of Islamic history. All his actions we're deliberately to malign and harm Islam and Ahlebayt as.

 

Edited by islam25

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21 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

it is a big lie those Shias utter and an unjustified insult to the Caliphs (رضي الله عنه)!  :)  

Indeed.

It was all hunky-dory, and all the companions got along so jolly well after the Prophet saw, there was a smooth, uncontested transition of power to the first caliph and everyone agreed. 

Everyone was satisfied with the 3rd caliphs rule too and he did not favour his clansmen in key governmental positions. The Prophet's grandchildren were sent to protect him from an angry mob who were laying seige to his house for no reason whatsoever.

Furthermore, once the 4th caliph was in office, there was peace in the lands and not as if Muslims were killing eachother like today.

Yes the Companions got along just fine and God is pleased with them and they with Him.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No.  He too is not to be cursed.  So that won’t work.  

Allah teaches and encourages to lan(curse) on zalimoon.So who so ever did it that too deliberately and repeatedly .

And Muawiyah definitely did it at all best of capacity .

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