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Follower of Ahlulbayt

Imam Ali Killed Dogs?

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The hadith under discussion is this:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن النوفلي، عن السكوني، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: بعثني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إلى المدينة فقال: لا تدع صورة إلا محوتها، ولا قبرا إلا سويته، ولا كلبا إلا قتلته.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå sent me to Madina, and said: Do not leave an image but that you have effaced it, nor a grave but that you have leveled it, nor a dog but that you have killed it. (translation from Qaim)

This report seems strange to me. First, we are allowed to keep dogs as pets for the purpose of hunting or guarding.  Also, the hadith mentions how Imam Ali was sent to destroy graves, which seems to imply that building shrines on graves is haram.

My question:

Should we not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (a) by killing dogs and levelling shrines?

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4 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

My question:

Should we not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (a) by killing dogs and levelling shrines?

:salam:

If you are fine with killing animals just for the sake of it, or destroying the graves of your dead relatives, go ahead.

Otherwise just use reason and throw the hadith.

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8 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

If you are fine with killing animals just for the sake of it, or destroying the graves of your dead relatives, go ahead.

Otherwise just use reason and throw the hadith.

That is not how Hadith studies work; unless you would otherwise concede that Sunnis are right when they say that Twelvers pick and choose and therefore cannot be trusted with preserving the Sunnah(?) 

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It is not haram according to most if not all Shi'a jurists for a person to kill a stray dog or a pig for no reason.

Also, you cannot buy a guard dog. A hunting dog is okay though.

Edited by Sumerian

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17 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

That is not how Hadith studies work; unless you would otherwise concede that Sunnis are right when they say that Twelvers pick and choose and therefore cannot be trusted with preserving the Sunnah(?) 

Unless you want to fall into the same trap as the Sunnis who preserve a sunnah regardless of its humanity, you should use reason and admit that hadith compilation was always flawed.

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2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

The hadith under discussion is this:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن النوفلي، عن السكوني، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: بعثني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إلى المدينة فقال: لا تدع صورة إلا محوتها، ولا قبرا إلا سويته، ولا كلبا إلا قتلته.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå sent me to Madina, and said: Do not leave an image but that you have effaced it, nor a grave but that you have leveled it, nor a dog but that you have killed it. (translation from Qaim)

This report seems strange to me. First, we are allowed to keep dogs as pets for the purpose of hunting or guarding.  Also, the hadith mentions how Imam Ali was sent to destroy graves, which seems to imply that building shrines on graves is haram.

My question:

Should we not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (a) by killing dogs and levelling shrines?

some scholars said کلب is کَلِب that means rabid dog

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Unless you want to fall into the same trap as the Sunnis who preserve a sunnah regardless of its humanity, you should use reason and admit that hadith compilation was always flawed.

You have to understand the wider implications, and it is a trap using your method rather than accepting what is authentic - using subjective emotion or ways of thinking to judge Hadith in spite of the Isnad causes two major issues:

1. Anyone can subsequently judge anything as inauthentic if they don't like it/it goes against their personal thoughts. This can lead to extreme deviance, refusal to follow the Sunnah, strange beliefs etc.

2. You may lose authentic teaching. Let us say for example that this Hadith or others were genuine statements from the Prophet SAW or Ali or anyone else, then you are losing their teachings and also could imply Kufr because you are disbelieving in what was taught because you don't like it or agree with it, so perhaps your opinion of the Prophet SAW or anyone else is higher or more extreme than is reality.

Such a methodology, if it has been employed by scholars, could well mean the Shi'ism practiced and understood today by the majority are just beliefs from arbitrarily selected Hadith based upon their own biases, in which case one should not follow Shi'ism; if it hasn't been employed by scholars, then you need to abandon this methodology lest you want to create a subsect of your own one day or otherwise become a Quranist.

Edited by Ar.alhindi

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25 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

You have to understand the wider implications, and it is a trap using your method rather than accepting what is authentic - using subjective emotion or ways of thinking to judge Hadith in spite of the Isnad causes two major issues:

1. Anyone can subsequently judge anything as inauthentic if they don't like it/it goes against their personal thoughts. This can lead to extreme deviance, refusal to follow the Sunnah, strange beliefs etc.

2. You may lose authentic teaching. Let us say for example that this Hadith or others were genuine statements from the Prophet SAW or Ali or anyone else, then you are losing their teachings and also could imply Kufr because you are disbelieving in what was taught because you don't like it or agree with it, so perhaps your opinion of the Prophet SAW or anyone else is higher or more extreme than is reality.

Such a methodology, if it has been employed by scholars, could well mean the Shi'ism practiced and understood today by the majority are just beliefs from arbitrarily selected Hadith based upon their own biases, in which case one should not follow Shi'ism; if it hasn't been employed by scholars, then you need to abandon this methodology lest you want to create a subsect of your own one day or otherwise become a Quranist.

Or this could as well mean ahadith sources - Sunni or Shia - were inflitrated by external elements. 

In this optic it is not a matter of proving what sources are right since all can be proved to be corrupt. 

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7 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The Arabic says Al Madinah, so it's definitive.

Ok, so the question arises is that when did the Prophet (S) sent Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) to Madina with such a mission? 

14 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå sent me to Madina, and said: Do not leave an image but that you have effaced It, nor a grave but that you have leveled it, nor a dog but that you have killed it.

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9 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

The hadith under discussion is this:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن النوفلي، عن السكوني، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: بعثني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إلى المدينة فقال: لا تدع صورة إلا محوتها، ولا قبرا إلا سويته، ولا كلبا إلا قتلته.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå sent me to Madina, and said: Do not leave an image but that you have effaced it, nor a grave but that you have leveled it, nor a dog but that you have killed it. (translation from Qaim)

This report seems strange to me. First, we are allowed to keep dogs as pets for the purpose of hunting or guarding.  Also, the hadith mentions how Imam Ali was sent to destroy graves, which seems to imply that building shrines on graves is haram.

My question:

Should we not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (a) by killing dogs and levelling shrines?

SalamI only found source of this hadith is  from Abuhurairah & some snti Shia sites without a reliable source that he  excluded these two type  dogs because he was keeping these two type of dogs ,when you mention a hadith that causes doubts mention it's source your current post like as wahabists that accept any type of hadith that serves their pupae without thinking about authencity of it

 http://www.sibtayn.com/fa/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54253:الف-ـ-شهرت-او-به-كذب-و-جعل-حديث&catid=4387&Itemid=3476

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) orderd & destroyed single minarets that were higher than mosque hight 

https://hawzah.net/fa/Article/View/84048/تحقیقی-پیرامون-مناره-(1)

I read about about destroying graves that were on top of hills & had higher height than mosques but I can't  find source of it .

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19 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

Islam doesnt allow deceiving, slapping or cursing an animal let alone killing it for no reason.

This is a famous quote from Imam Ali(a):

By Allah even if I am given all the domains of the seven (stars) with all that exists under the skies in order that I may disobey Allah to the extent of snatching one grain of barley from an ant I would not do it

You just quoted an unsourced "quote" with no chain of narrators. In the domain of Fiqh this means nothing, especially when going against actual referenced narrations and the popular opinion of the jurists. Thanks.

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You forgot to ask yourself the most important question. When did the Prophet say this and for what reason? Every Hadith has a context.

There are verses in the Qur'an that says to kill the kafirs, but when you look at the context it’s talking about during battles and wars.

Edited by Hassan-

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6 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

It is in Nahj al-Balaqa, sermon 215.

As to killing animals for no reason:

The Prophet (S) said, ‘No animal, including a bird or any other kind, is killed unjustly except that it will raise a complaint against him [the killer] on the Day of Resurrection.’[Kanz al-’Ummal, no. 39968]

 

The Prophet (S) said, ‘Whoever kills a sparrow in vain, it will cry out to Allah against him on the Day of Resurrection saying, ‘O my Lord, so and so killed me in vain and did not kill me for any useful purpose.’[Kanz al-’Ummal, no. 39971]

 

 Ibn ‘Abbas narrates, ‘The Prophet (S) forbade the killing of any living thing unless it causes harm.’[Kanz al-’Ummal, no. 39981]

Kanz al-Ummal is not even a Shi'I book. You are attempting to use ungraded hadiths to prove your point, while the textual proof on the other side is clearer.

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What a strange question. In response, I would say to use your aql. Do we ever kill animals for no reason? 

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On 3/25/2019 at 5:53 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

source your current post like as wahabists that accept any type of hadith that serves their pupae without thinking about authencity of it

Not sure where you are getting this idea from; even if you oppose a group you should be fair and not slander them. 'Wahabis' are a people of Athar, so they always refer to texts and they are extremely stringent when it comes to Hadith authentication. The only possible area of contention between them and other Sunnis is the level of literalism used to interpret said texts.

Conversely I have observed your mentioned methodology from those who speak on the pulpits of Husseiniyaat - everything is okay to narrate until a Sunni debates them, after which authenticity suddenly becomes important

Edited by Ar.alhindi

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9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Kanz al-Ummal is not even a Shi'I book. You are attempting to use ungraded hadiths to prove your point, while the textual proof on the other side is clearer.

It is not important if the book is written by a Sunni or a Shia; the content and authenticity are important. Some of these narrations can be found in Shia books too.

Imam Sadiq(a) said: the worst sins are three: killing an animal [when it is not necessary], ...  (Bihar al_Anwar, vol. 64- p. 268).

Imam Ali (a) said: God curse everyone who curses an animal ( Wasael al- Shia. V. 11- p. 483).

How can cursing an animal be considered a sin but killing it for no reason be permissible?!

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12 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

It is not important if the book is written by a Sunni or a Shia; the content and authenticity are important. Some of these narrations can be found in Shia books too.

Yes it is important, because Sunni chains are weak to begin with.

12 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

Imam Sadiq(a) said: the worst sins are three: killing an animal [when it is not necessary], ...  (Bihar al_Anwar, vol. 64- p. 268).

1) no chain

2) show me the Arabic

12 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

Imam Ali (a) said: God curse everyone who curses an animal ( Wasael al- Shia. V. 11- p. 483).

How can cursing an animal be considered a sin but killing it for no reason be permissible?!

1) no chain

2) show me the Arabic

3) don't employ qiyas. What you did at the end was clear qiyas.

On the otherhand, I can quote many narrations, including the one mentioned by the O.P, which proves the permissibility of doing such a thing to a dog or a pig, not to mention the verdicts of the jurists of our madhab.

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On 3/27/2019 at 4:27 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

Conversely I have observed your mentioned methodology from those who speak on the pulpits of Husseiniyaat - everything is okay to narrate until a Sunni debates them, after which authenticity suddenly becomes important

They also are mentioning from Sunni sources too but every so called debates that I saw started by Wahabist in name of Sunnis that they bring everything without mentioning it’s source & it’s always Shia side has to bring source but at the end in best mode they become silent but don’t accept reality when sources are mentioning by Shia side but Sunni debaters are free to mention everything & don’t see it necessary to mention their source for their claims & when so called Sunnis debaters mention a source bring their interpretation from it not original source .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 3/27/2019 at 8:50 PM, Sumerian said:

Yes it is important, because Sunni chains are weak to begin with.

1) no chain

2) show me the Arabic

1) no chain

المكارم : من كتاب المحاسن عن الصادق 7 قال : أقذر الذنوب ثلاثة قتل البهيمة وحبس مهر المرأة ومنع الأجير أجره

وقال علي ( عليه السلام ) في الدواب : لا تضربوا الوجوه ولا تلعنوها ، فإنّ الله عزّ وجلّ لعن لاعنها .

Killing an animal for no reason is both immoral and illogical so how can it be permisssible in Islam? Some great scholars, such as A. Behjat, even tried not to kill flies.

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There was a scholar, Sheikh Morteza Zahed....once it was raining. A wet dog came to his home and slept next to the door.

He forced the dog to leave the place without beating him...That night he dreamed that there was fire in his hands.

He related that dream to his behaviour toward the dog; although he hadnt behave violently.

Edited by shadow_of_light

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5 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

 Killing an animal for no reason is both immoral and illogical so how can it be permisssible in Islam? 

Immoral and illogical things can be halal.

The problem is sister you are not looking at the hadiths wholistically and you are basing judgement on emotions. It looks bad so it is haram in your eyes. That's not how Fiqh works.

And the actions of scholars in and of themselves are not a great indication of permissibility and impermissibility, please bring me verdicts and fatwas.

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:bismillah:

According to the office of Sayyed Sistani in London:

Question:

Salam alykom
Are we allowed to kill dogs without a specific reason or fear for diseases?

 

Answer:

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

It is allowed in case of sufficient excuse

Wassalamu Alaykum

 

This makes sense when you look at the bigger picture and not only in one or two specific hadiths. This also seem to be in line with the Sunni view that such hadiths have a context behind them, and were not meant generally as you should go out and kill all dogs you can find.

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dog-650299.jpg

Dogs are our friends, they do more for us than any other species. 

Guide dogs for blind and deaf, bomb sniffing dogs, guard dogs, rescue dogs, drug finding dogs, police/army dogs, therapy dogs to help with the clinically depressed and sick kids, they even have dogs capable of detecting early stages of cancer and more, not to mention some who refuse to leave their owner's grave. We  honestly don't deserve them. 

This is coming from a cat person.

I can accept the answer by Sayyid Sistani.

Dogs are one of the few select animals mentioned by name in the Qur'an, and even then, not in a bad light - protecting People of the Cave.

I will defend the innocent puppers if I see injustice against them -_-

 

 

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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