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In the Name of God بسم الله
notme

Feminine and masculine traits

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16 hours ago, notme said:

I'm in the southeastern United States. Most people who I know are non-Muslim and mostly middle to lower middle class white folks. 

Even in families where a man works, usually the woman also works, and then comes home and works some more while the man relaxes. The mother usually does 90% of household and child caring tasks, even in families where both parents work full time. This isn't every "Western" family arrangement, but certainly too many, maybe even a majority. 

And too often, mothers are abandoned by the father to raise the child or children alone, and our society criticizes her for the sacrifices she must make, while praising the male if he even so much as sends court ordered minimal child support payments and shows up for court ordered visitations. This happens especially among poorer women who I've known, though I couldn't say whether poverty is the cause or the effect. 

There are some Westerners who do understand that Women are weaker physically and not suited to physically demanding jobs however unlike some Muslim men on this forum,they do not brag about being leaders of the household.Instead,they think of Marriage as a partnership.I have seen many Intelligent Women around me who are consulted by their husbands for a lot of decisions and their gender is not constantly thrown at them.Being a man does not automatically mean you will be just,sensible and emotionally stable.Imam Ali had told us to not have pride.This is not just for Women.It's for all Muslims,Male and Female.

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17 hours ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Jaan Sister Mehrazar,

Welcome to ShiaChat!

Our standards as Muslim women is to please our Creator and create a warm, comforting, positive vibes in our household.  

Why would I care what non Muslims think of me, if I follow Islamic principles?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

 

Besmehi Ta'aala.

Sister,ShiaChat belongs to a lot of communities with their own cultures,ways of thinking.Shia Islam is not monopolized by a particular race,community,family,individual.If Women want to comfort their husbands,fine.Every Woman has the freedom to decide what role she wants to play in her marriage.That is true Feminism,Freedom of Choice.It's just that parents also have to train the male side to work on their egos,develop their intelligence,have an open mind about different kinds of women,not consider it Unmanly to help their wives in housework and generally Respect women.Sister,do you know in Psychological Studies there are more dumb men than women.How can some women give the reigns of decision-making into their hands without being consulted.It can lead to dangerous results.

Fi Aman Illah,

:)

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

What you stated here is very true and indeed very sad. May Allah help your cousin and bring punishment to all men who play with the feelings of women who are already in an emotionally vulnerable state. But this doesn't have anything to do with what I posted. My post was about marriage dynamics. I am in no way stating that men can be leaders in every male-female interaction. Women are powerful and strong and they should exercise their power and strength and rights when dealing with all men outside of their marriage.  

Being on equal terms in marriage as per the western or feminist notion is not going to improve the quality of marriage nor decrease the divorce rate. Had it been so, the divorce statistics from the western world would have been saying so. 

In the Western world,Women initiate 75 per cent of divorces.It is not a bunch of entitled males asking for a divorce.

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5 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

In the Western world,Women initiate 75 per cent of divorces.It is not a bunch of entitled males asking for a divorce.

Initiating a divorce says nothing. It's Islam who gave power to the women so man cannot treat her like cattle. Read Surah Mujadilah. I find your posts completely irrelevant to what we are discussing here. Maybe you would like to start a separate topic?

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28 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

not consider it Unmanly to help their wives in housework 

"Help their wives with housework"? This language presupposes that housework is only for women and men are doing a favor by "helping" with something that isn't their responsibility. While that may be the case in some families, is should not be an assumption. 

Did Imam Ali ask Fatima "which chore do you want me to do" or did he see a task which needed to be done, and do it? I honestly don't know for certain, but based on what is written about his character, I'm guessing the second. 

Men who feel pleased with themselves because they took out the trash when their wife asked have a long way to go. 

Edited by notme
Typo.

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38 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

 

I don't know why you quoted my words, and then didn't address any of them. 

Doesn't matter though. No worries. 

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Sister I know it's not only for Women.There are different people from different backgrounds on ShiaChat so they wouldnt think "Housework is also a man's thing" They would think in other terms.My own parents share the household chores :)

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10 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

Sister I know it's not only for Women.There are different people from different backgrounds on ShiaChat so they wouldnt think "Housework is also a man's thing" They would think in other terms.My own parents share the household chores :)

The language you use speaks more than just what is intended. When you refer to an adult man as "helping with chores" you demean him, make him into a child, and you unconsciously assign responsibility for the well-being of the house to the women.

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44 minutes ago, starlight said:

Initiating a divorce says nothing. It's Islam who gave power to the women so man cannot treat her like cattle. Read Surah Mujadilah. I find your posts completely irrelevant to what we are discussing here. Maybe you would like to start a separate topic?

Initiating a Divorce says a lot about the power of the Women of that community.Though I favour divorce in only exceptional cases like physical abuse by the husband,psychological disorders of the husband,extreme culture clashes.Things like this.Not because I got bored with my husband or because I don't feel happy in the marriage or I found a richer man to marry.

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3 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

Initiating a Divorce says a lot about the power of the Women of that community.

Maybe you didn't read all of my post. Islam gives the power to women to initiate divorce and Muslim women exercise this power too. 

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2 minutes ago, starlight said:

Maybe you didn't read all of my post. Islam gives the power to women to initiate divorce and Muslim women exercise this power too. 

Good :)

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7 hours ago, starlight said:

. Had it been so, the divorce statistics from the western world would have been saying so. 

Why only point out the West? For decades, the divorce rate has remained the same and has even dropped to 40%. The only time divorce rates were 50% and higher was in the 80s and 90s, when divorce rates rose sharply, since many women married for years to abusive men found no stigma to divorce them.

Whereas in Iran currently, divorce rates have exploded to up to 75%. And it’s not a country influenced by feminism. What do you say to that? 

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3 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

And it’s not a country influenced by feminism. What do you say to that? 

I don't think that's true. 

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Just now, notme said:

I don't think that's true. 

It’s not influenced by feminism like the US. Women work and hold their own in that regard, but they are still encouraged to be submissive wives and that housework is a duty upon her. That doesn’t sound like feministic to me. 

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39 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It’s not influenced by feminism like the US. Women work and hold their own in that regard, but they are still encouraged to be submissive wives and that housework is a duty upon her. That doesn’t sound like feministic to me. 

Housework is a duty upon all who live in a house, and in "The West", an awful lot of women work full time and then come home and work another full time job caring for home and family. Certainly a lot, probably a majority. 

"Submissive" is a slippery word. When you use it, what do you mean? 

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"Western feminism", as it currently exists, expects women to do everything, to be a fully functional family alone, and expects minimal or no contribution from men. I have hopes for eventual progress to a more sustainable balance. The original intent was for women to be treated as equals with men, not superhuman beings. 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

"Submissive" is a slippery word. When you use it, what do you mean? 

Meaning that if a man tells you that you’re not allowed to see your family, you’re supposed to submit and listen. If he wants to move somewhere, you have to listen. 

If he wants sex whenever, you can’t ever say no even if you’re exhausted. 

If he wants you to wear chador, you have to listen. If he hates a certain style of clothing, listen. You’re not given freeedom. You basically have to either 1. Walk on eggshells as to not make him upset and if a man has a bad temper, it’s a woman’s fault for not being able to “tame” and manipulate her husband. If a husband strays, it’s because the woman wasn’t trying hard enough, was not attractive enough, was bad in bed. 2. You have to bend over backwards to please men. That if you don’t cook, clean, etc., you are worthless as a woman and as a wife, no matter how much money you make.  

Basically, it’s only a man’s way when making major decisions and a woman is supposed to submit to him.

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

That's what you think!

Honey, I lived in Iran. Iran is not influenced by feminism. Women in Iran think feminism is crazy and stupid. Your worth as a woman in that country is still being able to be a good homemaker and raise children. Have you ever lived in Iran? Or do you base your ideas on what you see on TV by the biased media? 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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2 hours ago, notme said:

"Western feminism", as it currently exists, expects women to do everything, to be a fully functional family alone, and expects minimal or no contribution from men. I have hopes for eventual progress to a more sustainable balance. The original intent was for women to be treated as equals with men, not superhuman beings. 

Feminism as an ideology is beyond gender roles, precisely because that would also mean that partnership consists of man and woman (and thus excluding woman-woman, man-man, non-binary). There are certain wings of "feminism" that do still believe in genders per se, commonly referred as terfs (trans exclusive radical feminists). These are not considered feminists, though, for obvious reasons.

Right now, it is known that the source of sexism precisely relies in the social construct of gender roles.

I don't think it is feminism job to say that a woman must have a male partner to help her. This is not the goal of this movement. Ofc, a woman can have any partner, regardless of gender, and that partner should contribute equally to the relationship. That's common sense, though.

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