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In the Name of God بسم الله
notme

Feminine and masculine traits

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25 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

They already gave equal rights to Women because of the Feminist Movement 

No. Western culture puts the entire burden of family on women and reduces men to useless children. This isn't good for anyone. "Feminism" is hopefully still a work in progress. If it's done, it's a terrible failure. 

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5 hours ago, notme said:

That's fine, but I was hoping for examples. 

I can think of the example of a co-wife, in which jealous protectiveness over her husband against the other wife would be inappropriate, but shouldn't a mother jealously protect her young child? Perhaps the appropriateness of the trait is on its application, just like in the case of leadership? 

And if that is the case, the trait isn't the problem, the action is. 

 

To translate gheera into jealousy or protective jealousy is a very incorrect translation from my understanding and a poor understanding of the concept of gheera.

Although gheera has to do with protecting it has nothing to do with jealousness; for example:

If a man would talk inappropriately to my sister or mother, I would confront him out of gheera. In such a scenario jealousy has nothing to do with it, who would I be jealous of in such a case? The guy? My sister or mother?

Gheera in of itself is a divinely inspired reaction that is inert with men's nature, although it can be removed with effort, all men are initially born with gheera. You can even see it in young boys sometimes. There are other emotions/reactions that are divinely inspired within humans also, such as the sense of nurturing and taking care of elders, or to be kind to children, etc.

All these emotions/reactions that are divinely inspired are put in us to safeguard society, our faith and by extension humanity as a whole and motivate us to  perform amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar.

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6 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

 

To translate gheera into jealousy or protective jealousy is a very incorrect translation from my understanding and a poor understanding of the concept of gheera.

Can it be translated into English?

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

Can it be translated into English?

Maybe not, maybe the concept needs its own word in english that is currently lacking.

Jealousy in of itself has a very negative connotation to it and rightfully so, it usually stems from a lack of self esteem.

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11 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Damn, the comments of some of the women here reflect a serious case of position hungryness....to stand shoulder to shoulder with men. Why y’all so thirsty to compete with men. This is isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it, O desperately competitive women.

Smh it’s scary to see how the toxic and self destructive ideas celebrated by modern society are starting to pollute the minds of some of our own.

Stay safe people, stay sane.

 

1 hour ago, notme said:

No. Western culture puts the entire burden of family on women and reduces men to useless children. This isn't good for anyone. "Feminism" is hopefully still a work in progress. If it's done, it's a terrible failure. 

Not all the time.I don't know who you were around.The Western men I knew worked,listened to their wives suggestions just to get sex.However,Muslim Men are obsessed with controlling women in more aspects and generally feel even more entitled.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Jaan Sister Mehrazar,

Welcome to ShiaChat!

Our standards as Muslim women is to please our Creator and create a warm, comforting, positive vibes in our household.  

Why would I care what non Muslims think of me, if I follow Islamic principles?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Mehrazar said:

 

Not all the time.I don't know who you were around.The Western men I knew worked,listened to their wives suggestions just to get sex.However,Muslim Men are obsessed with controlling women in more aspects and generally feel even more entitled.

I'm in the southeastern United States. Most people who I know are non-Muslim and mostly middle to lower middle class white folks. 

Even in families where a man works, usually the woman also works, and then comes home and works some more while the man relaxes. The mother usually does 90% of household and child caring tasks, even in families where both parents work full time. This isn't every "Western" family arrangement, but certainly too many, maybe even a majority. 

And too often, mothers are abandoned by the father to raise the child or children alone, and our society criticizes her for the sacrifices she must make, while praising the male if he even so much as sends court ordered minimal child support payments and shows up for court ordered visitations. This happens especially among poorer women who I've known, though I couldn't say whether poverty is the cause or the effect. 

Edited by notme
Typo.

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This ^ is a result of feminism asserting that women can do it all. Hopefully they meant capability. In practice though, it has come to be an expectation. It unduly burdens women and degrades men. This is what I'm talking about when I say feminism, if it is a completed project, is a failure. I'm content to assume it's still in progress and will eventually reach a point where it places women at the status and value that Islam has always asserted that we already have, if only it were practiced. 

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How many members disagree with the following? And please elaborate why. 

Men and women have an equal intellectual capacity to make informed decisions as a team, as partners about things that concern both their lives. 

Women also possess stereotypically 'masculine' traits such as leadership. This is shown through Lady Zainab's leadership after the Imam (عليه السلام) was martyred. It is shown through our own mothers' leadership in leading the home and leading her children through their lives and teaching them valuable life experiences. Just because she does not possess identical leadership as her husband, does not mean she does not possess the characteristic of leadership at all. 

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@2Timeless

I doubt you'll find anyone to disagree with that, but I'd be interested in reading explanations of those who do. 

Nonetheless, Islam assigns the role of Head of the Household to the husband. This is a work assignment, not a statement of value. The Qur'an makes it clear that men and women are of equal status spiritually. 

My guess regarding the reason for this is because if women were assigned responsibility, men would do nothing. (I hope I'm wrong, but have low expectations.) Maintaining a household and family is meant to be a partnership, divided about equally between partners. 

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I think some people don’t understand that you can still value marriage as a partnership, and not a man solely making major decisions in a relationship (because sometimes those decisions are wrong. A man is not Allah’s spokesperson. Men are capable of making mistakes in decisions.) and a wife still doing nice things for her husband. 

For instance, my husband expressed that my hair could use a change, as it was all one length and down to my tailbone. I was also feeling like my hair needed a change. So I showed him the bangs and possible layers I liked, and so we agreed on bangs, and although he liked my natural hair color, I decided to dye my hair brown. 

I walked in the very next day and got my hair done. Dyed it, cut it, and although it was a small change, my husband complimented my hair a lot. Strive for win-win situations, like my husband says. Not win-lose. 

I always strive to look, smell, and dress my best around my husband, and yet, our marriage is still equal. You can have both. Just because you value a partnership, it doesn’t mean that you’d automatically become a she-butch wannabe, who neglects herself. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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On 3/24/2019 at 8:54 PM, Maryaam said:
 
Careful, King….  
 
In addition to quelling hunger pains, lovingly prepared food is a soothing, emotionally restorative delight; it is comforting nourishment for the soul…. Every day, every week, every month, every year - you, and all your senses, come to expect and depend upon the fragrances of the kitchen and the colourful, aromatic, steaming dishes produced and beautifully presented - solely to please and comfort you.  :cuddle:
 
Hmmm….  Or is that the sole purpose???  :shifty:
 
This consistent and dependable devotion to you (and your stomach), from the chief cook and bottle washer, fosters your ever increasing dependence on her.  And then...from your increasing dependency evolves her ever increasing control!  
 
The kitchen is the ultimately the central physical and emotional operational base of the home, and whoever leads that, leads all! :woot:
 
Women’s greatest strength is that, despite ongoing proof to the contrary, they are continually underestimated.  :itsok:

awww sister, please contribute in the Ate/Eating/Will Eat thread.   hahah  What's cooking in your kitchen?

Blessed is your future husband. :muslima:

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I just have a message to any guy who comes across this thread:

Take a chill pill and don't ever feel the need to dominate your women. If you are actually bothered to appear as the 'dominant one', that doesn't even come across as natural. Value the opinion of your women, because they can be more sensible than you. Your women can make better and more reasonable decisions. It's good to accept defeat at times. Realise that marriage is not a game, it's not about you. Marriage is like a partnership and both spouses should feel that they are being heard. Fiqh doesn't give you certain rights so you can become arrogant. If you actually abuse your rights, then you're a weak person.

Just wanted to get this out there! I hope men in our communities don't feel the need to dominate.

 

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15 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

image.png.36824210ca39f128f737ac87dda8217d.png

 

image.png.55c1dd399102ada17e57aea50960520c.png

 

image.png.6a33512f233db92193e6bc811f83e1c8.png

image.png.fc76b790515994f77506d8843426b6ca.png

 

damn... exaggeration is mainly a womans forte, but I think its really polluted the brains of men.

 

the worlds going to end?!!!!!! 

 

Lool what a creative and fun to read response! I'm not making a big deal out of it, that's why I never commented in a proper argumentative format in the first place, didn't really want to deepen this discussion too much. 

Well lol a lot of good things in this world are ending.

Edited by AStruggler

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10 hours ago, notme said:

This ^ is a result of feminism asserting that women can do it all. Hopefully they meant capability. In practice though, it has come to be an expectation. It unduly burdens women and degrades men. This is what I'm talking about when I say feminism, if it is a completed project, is a failure. I'm content to assume it's still in progress and will eventually reach a point where it places women at the status and value that Islam has always asserted that we already have, if only it were practiced. 

The way I see it @notme, not only feminism is an incomplete ideological construct that is still in progress, but Islam itself. "Real" Islam is not a goal we already know, but a fallacy we already accepted. There is a lot of ideas to deconstruct, and we have to be dangerously blind, as Muslims, if we cannot see it (when Islamic countries are amongst the worst in the world in virtually anything, especially women's rights. Even in earlier Islamic societies, women were treated like cattle and early Islamic philosophers and sociologist pointed that problem (as economical, academical and social).

Moreover, societies change. This is a fact that has been studied for centuries, from Ibn Khaldun to Marx. It's naive to think there is a "real" thing that works for everything in society universally and eternally. There are, indeed, certain principles humans look for, such as Justice. But we, as a society, change over time, and there are human laws that won't ever be genuinely divine in any way, except for their inspiration (laws are meant to fit the divine ideal of Justice). Considering Islam, as we understand it today, as a fully dogmatic and known complete ideology with no further progress required is also accepting slavery and being happy with it, for instance. It is also accepting war on non Abrahamic religions instead of peace. However, we can also play with words as much as we can to force a win in this debate, though, and keep our eyes closed.

Feminism and what is being called Western modern ideology in a demeaning way is, sadly for many, an unstoppable movement. And I genuinely see in this movement a small, but real, spark of hope for the Arab world.

 

As a side note, I don't mind women whose goal in life is to please their husband. But I would like that those women who don't follow that mentality weren't seen like prostitutes, called prostitutes, or treated like if they were prostitutes precisely by those men (AND WOMEN) who precisely defend the ideal of "religious women". I took this to the point of completely cutting ties with relatives with such mentality. To the hell with them and their useless fake beliefs. These people should learn how to be human first.

Edited by Bakir

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@starlight I think you shared a great post on the need of a leading role within any team. I honestly enjoyed it, but I believe it doesn't really point at the problems that are present within our communities. The cases of toxic masculinity and abuse are sadly very common to allow ourselves to talk about "happy teams" and ideals. There are many ways to be a leader, even in a company. You got the typical capitalistic boss who will exploit you till death, and you got other formulas, such as unionism that is lately getting more and more common. In unionism there may be elected leaders, but roles and power relations are highly different from the typical owner/boss who will, sooner or later, treat you like a pawn. So the thing is not who shall be the boss of any team, but HOW. There are things that shall never be tolerable, regardless if it comes from a man or a woman. We have an understanding of leadership as a privilege, because we have indeed turned it into privilege, there is a real power difference in traditional marriages within our communities. This is ingrained in our heads. I couldn't even explain to my own mother why women shall work and be an active part of society. She can't think by herself and in her own interest.

There is a power difference that is abusive. Look for instance at the case of divorced women compared to divorced men. Who will suffer most to rebuild his/her life? Who is the one who usually surrender and forgets the idea of looking for another partner? Who suffers the negative view and connotations of having experienced a divorce? Isn't that, by itself, a dangerous manipulation tool that gives power to men? My own cousin, for example, divorced her husband because he left her alone and went to Iraq, married there and didn't visit her for years. A sheykh decided to tell her he will marry her, to the point he even started flirting with her. After a few months, he ignored her and had no more interest, without giving any explanation. He probably considered he could do that to her because she is a second class woman due to her divorce. This toxic idea that "she has already been used by another man". She suffered to the point she went to hospital and is now a useless person, can't even speak correctly due to irreversible brain damage. You know the funniest part? Most people saw her like a "very modern" woman in the bad sense. To the hell with these people, and I hope for them a happy life at the hospital as well, if any.

Let's not fool anyone, this is the Arab world, this is what lies behind the banners of Islam. And if we don't actively fight against this garbage out of fear, if we don't get aggressive, if we allow or tolerate even the slightest, we are doomed to failure.

Edited by Bakir

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

There is a power difference that is abusive. Look for instance at the case of divorced women compared to divorced men. Who will suffer most to rebuild his/her life? Who is the one who usually surrender and forgets the idea of looking for another partner? Who suffers the negative view and connotations of having experienced a divorce? Isn't that, by itself, a dangerous manipulation tool that gives power to men? My own cousin, for example, divorced her husband because he left her alone and went to Iraq, married there and didn't visit her for years. A sheykh decided to tell her he will marry her, to the point he even started flirting with her. After a few months, he ignored her and had no more interest, without giving any explanation. He probably considered he could do that to her because she is a second class woman due to her divorce. This toxic idea that "she has already been used by another man". She suffered to the point she went to hospital and is now a useless person, can't even speak correctly due to irreversible brain damage.

What you stated here is very true and indeed very sad. May Allah help your cousin and bring punishment to all men who play with the feelings of women who are already in an emotionally vulnerable state. But this doesn't have anything to do with what I posted. My post was about marriage dynamics. I am in no way stating that men can be leaders in every male-female interaction. Women are powerful and strong and they should exercise their power and strength and rights when dealing with all men outside of their marriage.  

Being on equal terms in marriage as per the western or feminist notion is not going to improve the quality of marriage nor decrease the divorce rate. Had it been so, the divorce statistics from the western world would have been saying so. 

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

Being on equal terms in marriage as per the western or feminist notion is not going to improve the quality of marriage nor decrease the divorce rate. Had it been so, the divorce statistics from the western world would have been saying so. 

Probably, was feminism more prominent within our communities, it would increase the divorce rate alarmingly. Both in the short and long run.

As a Muslim, I may obviously feel sad for the increase of divorces, but in the end, I understand that the solution doesn't rely on making the choice to divorce harder or less appealing, but in having better life quality as a married person. In that sense, I see men less prepared and qualified for marriage within our communities than women, who from very young age are being prepared to become wives (and having a submissive role, leaving genders aside). I don't see parents worrying so much about young male kids learning to cook, to serve food, to dress in a specific way or to marry soon before hitting university age. And I'm not criticizing parents' worries here, but wondering why it's not the same for both genders, even if they hold different roles.

And cooking is hell. Not sure which member mentioned it, but the kitchen is a prison (and you guys know I love cooking). But cooking for a family, DAY AFTER DAY, seeing how people take it for granted, YEAR AFTER YEAR, and it becomes a duty you cannot evade. You even get judged for this duty. "This is salty!", "This part tastes like burnt", "You should have left it 5 more minutes at the oven", etc. Taking it for granted is the most normal consequence of getting used to see a woman in the kitchen your entire life. Cooking for the person you love is lovely, but this is just a temporal mirage.

Dunno, I think that in some way, all these feminist movements are so apparent that some of these problems get more visibility, and some men do feel shame and courage to change some missbehaviours. They grow courage to deconstruct cultural injustices towards women. If we educated men in feminism with the same obsession we educated women to hold submissive roles in society, things would be much different now. What we call gender specific qualities, the point of this thread, are qualities that are socially chased for that specific gender, thus they become common in that gender. Submission is such a quality for women, while domination is for men. Anything going against this socially constructed gender role is non-normative (a.k.a. queer).

In the end, star, I think women have been also taught to shut up, not to share their problems nor the suffering they experience (mostly for gender related issues). And that's a problem I hope feminism help to erradicate in the Muslim world. Because you women teaching men how are you experiencing different types of injustices in workplaces, marriages, families, etc. is an essential part of moving forward as a society. The harm is done, but visibility may help future generations not to live the same injustices you have already lived. Main problem I see is that talking isn't free. A woman talking is oftenly judged in the most unjust way possible.

Edited by Bakir

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