Feminine and masculine traits

[King]

Women make for great leaders, in the kitchen.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

"However assuming she is married and comes home, she needs to be an obedient submissive little dolly that helps her husbands ego blast through the roof".

Why all the bitterness? Exactly what do you find wrong with woman obeying her husband. 

[2Timeless]

1 minute ago, starlight said:

Why all the bitterness? Exactly what do you find wrong with woman obeying her husband. 

Dearest sister, that comment was intended to be more humourous. Please don't make such negative assumptions. 

I do believe obeying ones husband blindly in everything is quite foolish. What have you educated yourself for? Why has Allah given you a brain? Women are not sheep to be led. I as a woman, have an equal mental capacity to my male counterpart. As a wife, I will not be looking for reasons to fight and argue, but I will discuss and negotiate things with my husband. Will agree and disagree. Marriage is about compromise on both parts. That is the essence of marriage. I'm sorry if other women/men have such a bitter outlook to a woman who recognises her self worth.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

8 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

"However assuming she is married and comes home, she needs to be an obedient submissive little dolly that helps her husbands ego blast through the roof".

 

 

Who hurt you?

[2Timeless]

6 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 

 

Who hurt you?

Lol seems like the older generation can’t handle some humour. Stings when someone bursts your bubble eh? 

Anyway, I'll be the bigger person considering the age gap. 

Also, pretty inconsiderate and just plain rude. If I really were hurt as you were insinuating, don’t you think it's a little more on the rude and irresponsible side ? For all you know, anyone here could've been through serious trauma related to this topic, e.g. domestic abuse and violence etc. Please be more mindful.

Edited March 24, 2019 by 2Timeless

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Lol seems like the older generation can’t handle some humour. Stings when someone bursts your bubble eh? 

Anyway, I'll be the bigger person considering the age gap. 

No it's fine, one can usually tell who is actually married on here by their views 

[Ali bin Hussein]

21 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

For all you know, anyone here could've been through serious trauma related to this topic, e.g. domestic abuse and violence etc. Please be more mindful.

Welcome to the internet. You are a username.

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum 

Alhamd'Allah women have a choice in this life to make our homes a living hell or a sweet heaven.  If she wants to wear the pants in the house she either marries a pansy or there will be constant fights if she decides to marry a man with dignity, honor, and his God given right of being the head of the house.

Both can't play that role.  Otherwise dear sisters, don't have children save them the pain of your divorce.  

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

[2Timeless]

It's honestly sad how women downplay themselves so much and disregard their intellect. Either way, each to their own. As long as everyone is happy, keep doing what you will.

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum dear sister 

I understand we do not see eye to eye in many issues, but as life runs its course and you experience marriage first hand, I hope you learn to take the institution of marriage from Islamic principles and not western standards.

You have pointed out earlier,  there are people who come from abusive households.  Yes, many young ladies are turned off by marriage when they see the two most loved people they care for, hurt each other.  However, this doesn't need to be a vicious cycle carried on with future marriages. If anything we learn from the mistakes of our parents, understand our rights, have respect to the head of the household, each partner understands the roles and duties to undertake in raising a Muslim family. 

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Laayla

[Islandsandmirrors]

1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

I'm sorry if other women/men have such a bitter outlook to a woman who recognises her self worth.

Yessss, preach! The women in our Ummah are chronically low in self-esteem, due to negative gender roles, instead of understanding that we are just as mentally and emotionally capable to make good decisions and believe in a marriage of partnership, not of dominant/submissive dynamic.

neither my husband nor I wear the pants in the relationship. We have a very equal relationship and no one seeks to dominate the other. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[Soldiers and Saffron]

8 hours ago, notme said:

Are there any positive traits that are unique to one gender? 

Gheera.

[Islandsandmirrors]

What I don’t understand is this: why would anybody, man or woman, seek to dominate their spouse? That is not a stress-free, easy relationship. Why would anyone want someone who stresses themselves out like that? Why not just relax with your spouse? Don’t try to be anybody but yourself. 

[notme]

25 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

What I don’t understand is this: why would anybody, man or woman, seek to dominate their spouse? 

A good leader has no need to dominate.

Family structure is not about who is superior. It is just an order to things. 

[Islandsandmirrors]

I disagree with some people thinking that men who don’t seek dominance are weak or somehow inferior/not masculine enough. While there are weak men, a man’s strength is not in his ability to control and dominate. A man’s strength is based on his patience and character. 

Now, some men are naturally more dominant in the sense that they wear the pants in their relationships. Some men are not. Other men (and women) couldn’t care less. What to me is disrespectful and emasculating is making blanket statements that men who don’t dominate are weak. No, I think some men are naturally sweeter, value equality, and are softer personalities. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a sweet, sensitive, peaceful good guy. There is something wrong, however, with men who have the need to present themselves as macho based on a constructed and exaggerated ideal, and truthfully, those men are almost always insecure in their masculinity and can never bond with a woman. He will forever be a bachelor and become bitter and blame women for their relationship problems, or if someone as difficult as that type of personality gets married, will likely make their family miserable. No one wants a dictator, and bad boys will always lose their appeal once the lust stage is over. 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[notme]

42 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I disagree with some people thinking that men who don’t seek dominance are weak or somehow inferior/not masculine enough. While there are weak men, a man’s strength is not in his ability to control and dominate. A man’s strength is based on his patience and character. 

Did someone say that? I must have read through too quickly.

[Islandsandmirrors]

6 minutes ago, notme said:

Did someone say that? I must have read through too quickly.

I think a few people were echoing similar, somewhat black-and-white statements, yes.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[ali_fatheroforphans]

1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

While there are weak men, a man’s strength is not in his ability to control and dominate. A man’s strength is based on his patience and character. 

Yeah a dominant man could lose his temper and say abusive things to his wife. This is actually concerning and I would consider such a man to be weak. We need to focus more on stuff which actually matters, such as patience etc.

[Maryaam]

5 hours ago, King said:

Women make for great leaders, in the kitchen.

 

Careful, King….  

 

In addition to quelling hunger pains, lovingly prepared food is a soothing, emotionally restorative delight; it is comforting nourishment for the soul…. Every day, every week, every month, every year - you, and all your senses, come to expect and depend upon the fragrances of the kitchen and the colourful, aromatic, steaming dishes produced and beautifully presented - solely to please and comfort you.  

 

Hmmm….  Or is that the sole purpose???  

 

This consistent and dependable devotion to you (and your stomach), from the chief cook and bottle washer, fosters your ever increasing dependence on her.  And then...from your increasing dependency evolves her ever increasing control!  

 

The kitchen is the ultimately the central physical and emotional operational base of the home, and whoever leads that, leads all!

 

Women’s greatest strength is that, despite ongoing proof to the contrary, they are continually underestimated.  

[notme]

1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I think a few people were echoing similar, somewhat black-and-white statements, yes.

I agree with what has already been said by @ali_fatheroforphans, that a person who feels a need to dominate, to reduce others, is a weak person. This is not a favorable trait for men or women. 

[AStruggler]

8 hours ago, King said:

Women make for great leaders, in the kitchen.

Preach my brother.

[AStruggler]

8 hours ago, starlight said:

Why all the bitterness? Exactly what do you find wrong with woman obeying her husband. 

Wow great to see such sensible mominas. I thank you for your comment sister.

[AStruggler]

9 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 

 

Who hurt you?

DKM this was too good @Propaganda_of_the_Deed .

 

( @2Timeless, you’re a pretty old member here, pretty sure he knows that your not going through that stuff you mentioned in your comment towards him...)

Edited March 25, 2019 by AStruggler

[ali_fatheroforphans]

12 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Wow great to see such sensible mominas. I thank you for your comment sister.

I don't think 2t meant that there is any problem in obeying your husband. It's when women blindly submit to authority and think less of themselves. There needs to be a mutual agreement in every marriage. That's why it's important to address these sort of issues in our communities. Just because fiqh gives men some rights, it doesn't mean they develop this sort of arrogance and think they are always right. 

[Bakir]

Considering leadership a manly trait merely because of past history is being happily blind of recent history. By that rule of thumb, women are stupid because most relevant scientific progress have been done by men. This is a fact, but it's not because women are stupid, but because they were slaves to men.

Considering leadership a manly trait is an idea that keeps women far from power. And let me tell you something sisters, the farther you are from power, the more suffering and injustice you will experience in your lives (regardless of which banner is in power, be it "Islamic" or whatever). And much worse, you will get used to it and accept it.

There have been many female leaders, who haven't lead like men nor their power was necessarily associated with masculinity. There's still much work to do, but it is mostly a social construct to see leadership as a masculine trait. This social construct can even be appreciated in Thatcher or Merkel, who were female leaders showcasing masculine traits.

[AStruggler]

Damn, the comments of some of the women here reflect a serious case of position hungryness....to stand shoulder to shoulder with men. Why y’all so thirsty to compete with men. This is isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it, O desperately competitive women.

Smh it’s scary to see how the toxic and self destructive ideas celebrated by modern society are starting to pollute the minds of some of our own.

Stay safe people, stay sane.

Edited March 25, 2019 by AStruggler

[AStruggler]

6 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I don't think 2t meant that there is any problem in obeying your husband. It's when women blindly submit to authority and think less of themselves. There needs to be a mutual agreement in every marriage. That's why it's important to address these sort of issues in our communities. Just because fiqh gives men some rights, it doesn't mean they develop this sort of arrogance and think they are always right. 

Brother I wasn’t saying anything to @2Timeless in that message of mine, I was just showing the other sister appreciation for her awesome comment.

Edited March 25, 2019 by AStruggler

[Laayla]

2 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Damn, the comments of some of the women here reflect a serious case of position hungryness....to stand shoulder to shoulder with men. Why y’all so thirsty to compete with men. This is isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it, O desperately competitive women.

Smh it’s scary to see how the toxic and self destructive ideas celebrated by modern society are starting to pollute the minds of some of our own.

Stay safe people, stay sane.

This is to bring awareness to you and other brothers what NOT to look for in a wife.  Don't just walk away, RUN!

Otherwise, you end up with a Thatcher and a Merkel, God forbid.  

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

 

[2Timeless]

2 hours ago, AStruggler said:

This is isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it, O desperately competitive women.

Using humour to avoid the question doesn't make your non-existent argument any more credible. 

Firstly, no one is making a big deal. It's just annoying to see our egotistical brothers think everything goes their way. All that is being said is that women have an equal mental capacity and that marriage is a partnership. Its not about who "wears the pants". What exactly do you disagree with brother? Do you disagree with the fact that husbands should not lead their wives like cattle? Do you disagree with the fact that a sensible man would discuss important decision with his wife and value her opinion? If you do, why don’t you just marry a doll? Would make life much easier for you. 

For those making immature statements, think about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Did he ever do anything without taking Lady Fatima's (عليه السلام) opinion? Did he dismiss her so easily? Did he lead her without a thought as to her views? Think about the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Lady Khadija (عليه السلام). Did the Prophet treat his wife like property? No. Yes, the Imams were "heads" of the family but that does not mean they lead their women as if they were dolls. A strong man does not need to assert his power and dominance on a woman. Its quiet shocking to see that some of the supposedly married members here hold such mentalities. It is not compatible with the Qur'an or the ahl al bayt. It only originates from the Stone Age hunter-gatherer mentality. 

Here's a valuable life lesson: not everything is in black and white. You're not either a submissive little wifey or a dominant crazy masculine woman. And you're not either a little weak girly-man or a 'real ' strong powerful and dominant husband. These boundaries are just silly and immature. In a healthy marriage, a husband and wife make decisions TOGETHER. What's so hard to understand about that? They discuss things together. They take inti consideration each others views and opinions and make informed life decisions on that basis. In some cases, it will end up how the husband wanted, and some cases it will end up how the wife wanted. Hate to break it to you, but marriage is all about compromise. If you want a healthy marriage, you will compromise certain things. Most importantly, men will need to learn to get over their massive egos and that theres more to life than having the last say in everything. 

Also, please do not quote me or reply to this post unless you want to have a mature, civilised discussion. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by 2Timeless

[Sumerian]

Gheera isn't good for women. 

[notme]

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

Gheera isn't good for women. 

You're the second to mention this, but nobody picked up on the first a couple pages back. Please elaborate. 

This is exactly what I'm looking for: examples which disprove or discredit my hypothesis. 

[Sumerian]

1 minute ago, notme said:

You're the second to mention this, but nobody picked up on the first a couple pages back. Please elaborate. 

This is exactly what I'm looking for: examples which disprove or discredit my hypothesis. 

well Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said it is iman for men and kufr for women. Thats all the evidence I need

[notme]

2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

well Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said it is iman for men and kufr for women. Thats all the evidence I need

That's fine, but I was hoping for examples. 

I can think of the example of a co-wife, in which jealous protectiveness over her husband against the other wife would be inappropriate, but shouldn't a mother jealously protect her young child? Perhaps the appropriateness of the trait is on its application, just like in the case of leadership? 

And if that is the case, the trait isn't the problem, the action is. 

[Sumerian]

2 minutes ago, notme said:

That's fine, but I was hoping for examples. 

I can think of the example of a co-wife, in which jealous protectiveness over her husband against the other wife would be inappropriate, but shouldn't a mother jealously protect her young child? Perhaps the appropriateness of the trait is on its application, just like in the case of leadership? 

And if that is the case, the trait isn't the problem, the action is. 

I think it only deals with wife and husband, which makes your example about co-wives correct and therefore proves why this trait is only good for men.

[notme]

11 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I think it only deals with wife and husband, which makes your example about co-wives correct and therefore proves why this trait is only good for men.

Gheera only applies to a spouse, then? Can we talk more about the translation/definition of the word? My Arabic is minimal. 

Is it a trait, or a set of actions? 

Edited March 25, 2019 by notme
Added thought.