Feminine and masculine traits

[notme]

Salam

It seems to me that all positive masculine traits (focus, protectiveness, physical strength) are also good traits in women, and all positive feminine traits (overview thinking, nurturing, cooperative) are also good traits in men. It seems to me that only the toxic traits should be fought against in either gender.

Are there any positive traits that are unique to one gender? 

[notme]

Note that I'm not talking about outward physical traits, such as beards (though some women do have them.)

[Reza]

7 minutes ago, notme said:

Are there any positive traits that are unique to one gender? 

Even posing such a question is blasphemous for the post modernist institutions today.

[Ralvi]

Woman’s introspection and intuition

man’s groundedness and ability to fight

im not quite sure how to express my traits better lol but were able to sometimes see the overall picture better or sometimes microanalyze in life 

honestly though the sexes help one another in these traits one way or another. So these traits completely aren’t independent. In fact I think they arise due to the opposite sex

Edited March 24, 2019 by Ralvi

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Leadership is a masculine trait even in an Islamic view. 

[Ali bin Hussein]

The good characteristics of women are the bad characteristics of men: pride, cowardice and stinginess. If a woman has pride she will not allow herself to be taken advantage of; if she is stingy she will guard her wealth and her spouse’s wealth; and if she is cowardly she will be cautious of everything that confronts her.’ (Imam Ali)

I'm not sure of the exact refferance. (Any help ?)

"Nevertheless, Imam Ali considers the best characteristics of women as the worst attributes of man"

(Article by Abbas Ali Shameli Al Islam.org)

Edited March 24, 2019 by Warilla

[notme]

34 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

Woman’s introspection and intuition

man’s groundedness and ability to fight

Are introspection and intuition never found in men? Are men negatively affected by having these traits?

Are groundedness and ability to fight never found in women? Are women negatively affected by having these traits? (I've had to fight before, and I'm very glad I could, though I'd rather have avoided it.) 

[notme]

33 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Leadership is a masculine trait even in an Islamic view. 

Fatima Zahra. Lady Zainab. Lady Khadija. 

[notme]

45 minutes ago, Warilla said:

The good characteristics of women are the bad characteristics of men: pride, cowardice and stinginess. 

Maybe it's a language issue, maybe this was translated badly. But definitely excessive pride, cowardice, and stinginess are bad characteristics in a human, regardless of gender. 

Tell me this: when you are looking for a wife, would you give preference to a proud, stingy, cowardly woman? Would you attribute any of those characteristics to the ladies of the family of the Prophet (عليه السلام)? 

Edited March 24, 2019 by notme
Reduced long quote

[Ali bin Hussein]

33 minutes ago, notme said:

Maybe it's a language issue, maybe this was translated badly.

But definitely excessive pride, cowardice, and stinginess are bad characteristics in a human, regardless of gender. 

Tell me this: when you are looking for a wife, would you give preference to a proud, stingy, cowardly woman?

That's why I posted the hadith and seperate quote from the article on Islam.org to confirm the position.

Yes I would as it's advice from Imam Ali and as I don't have those characteristics it would balance our lives once married.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Warilla

[Ali bin Hussein]

8 hours ago, notme said:

Would you attribute any of those characteristics to the ladies of the family of the Prophet (عليه السلام)? 

Why not ? if the hadith is authentic then it's the best characteristics for a woman according to the best of men after Rasool.

Now if the hadith is not authentic or its misunderstood that's a diffirent matter.

[notme]

2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

That's why I posted the hadith and seperate quote from the article on Islam.org to confirm the position.

Yes I would as it's advice from Imam Ali and as I don't have those characteristics it would balance our lives once married.

So you would choose a proud stingy coward to raise your children? 

Maybe you define these words differently from how I do. 

I can understand some level of pride being a positive characteristic - but in a man as much as in a woman, so let's just disregard that one for now.

How would it benefit the family for the wife to be a stingy person? Protectiveness over the family's possessions is not the same as stinginess. Frugality is not the same as stinginess. And both frugality and protectiveness would be positive characteristics in a man.

How in the world would anyone benefit from being a coward or choosing a coward to raise their children? Caution is not the same as cowardice, and is also a positive trait in a man. 

I'm sure it must be a difference in interpretation. Otherwise, it's unfathomable. 

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

8 hours ago, notme said:

Fatima Zahra. Lady Zainab. Lady Khadija. 

Role models certainly. How many were Imams (leaders?) 

Imam Ali led Fatimah al Zahra, Imam Hussain followed by Imam Sajjad were the leaders in Lady Zeinab's time (عليه السلام). And the Prophet saw was the leader of Lady Khadijah. There is nothing negative about this either, merely facts.

[notme]

10 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Now if the hadith is not authentic or its misunderstood that's a diffirent matter.

Exactly. 

If it contradicts Qur'an, other accepted hadith, doesn't match up to the lives of the Prophet's family, or just defies common sense, one must question its validity and interpretation. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by notme

[Ali bin Hussein]

5 minutes ago, notme said:

 1)Frugality is not the same as stinginess.

2)How in the world would anyone benefit from being a coward

3)I'm sure it must be a difference in interpretation. Otherwise, it's unfathomable. 

4) Common sense

1) they are synonyms open any thesaurus or dictionary

2) the hadith gives the reason

3) what you find unfathomable is not important.

4) Common sense is subjective

Edited March 24, 2019 by Warilla

[notme]

2 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Role models certainly. How many were Imams (leaders?) 

There are leaders who are not The Leader. Agree? 

And not every man is The Imam. Also agree? 

[notme]

Just now, Warilla said:

1) they are synonyms open any thesaurus or dictionary

2) the hadith gives the reason

3) what you find unfathomable is not important.

But it's wrong. 

[Ali bin Hussein]

8 hours ago, notme said:

But it's wrong. 

According to you.

[notme]

Is a mother not a leader of her children? Even if not a mother, a woman is sometimes a leader of her sisters and neighbors. 

[notme]

8 hours ago, Warilla said:

According to you.

Fine. If it's what you want, I wish you the stingiest, most cowardly, and most proud wife ever. Peace. 

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Just now, notme said:

There are leaders who are not The Leader. Agree? 

Some can posess some masculine traits such as leadership and decision making

Just as males can posess feminine traits like nuturing.

2 minutes ago, notme said:

And not every man is The Imam. Also agree? 

They can be the "Imam" of their homes, families. Men according to the Qur'an are protectors and maintainers of women. It would be challenging to hold that authority without being the leader.

[notme]

1 minute ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Some can posess some masculine traits such as leadership and decision making

Just as males can posess feminine traits like nuturing.

Right. And that is exactly my point. 

It seems to me that a woman is not hurt by having positive stereotypically masculine traits, and neither is a man hurt by having positive stereotypically feminine traits. 

For example, if a woman is naturally a leader, she should embrace and cultivate this trait in a religiously appropriate way, and if a man is naturally a nurturer, he should embrace and cultivate this trait in a religiously appropriate way. Neither should be insulted, degraded, or considered "less feminine" or "less masculine". 

I am unable to think of any character traits that are unique to one gender, and I'm unable to think of a way that a trait which is positive for one gender is negative for the other. That's what I'm looking for: examples which disprove my hypothesis. 

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

5 minutes ago, notme said:

For example, if a woman is naturally a leader, she should embrace and cultivate this trait in a religiously appropriate way, and if a man is naturally a nurturer, he should embrace and cultivate this trait in a religiously appropriate way.

Yes one needs to know when to switch off. So a woman at her workplace should be in her masculine, otherwise no one would take her seriously. However assuming she is married and comes home, she needs to revert to her natural feminine, lest there be a clash - assuming her husband is naturally in his masculine.

Such a relationship would only function if one is opposite to the other. A woman who is naturally dominant would only work well with a male naturally submissive and goes along with her decision making, etc. A dominant male in that situation would lead to conflict.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

[notme]

4 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Such a relationship would only function if one is opposite to the other. A woman who is naturally dominant would only work well with a male naturally submissive and goes along with her decision making, etc. A dominant male in that situation would lead to conflict.

It has been my observation that assertive women prefer more assertive, strong men and will generally happily submit to their leadership. Bossy women, on the other hand, prefer submissive men.

A good leader knows when to follow. 

[Hassan-]

I don’t usually like posting long copy-paste posts but this explains it so well.

 

His Holiness Ali (P) discarding such an incorrect concept through the analysis and interpretation of his words, states:

فاذا كانت المرأة مزهوة لم تمكن من نفسها

“If a woman continually observe a boundary and certain precautions in her own social relations, she will never be exploited and vulnerable.

لم تمكن نفساً ً 

"She never allows herself to be misused.”

فاذا كانت بخيله

"If she has the characteristic of stinginess……"

حفظت مالها و مال بعلها

".. she will safeguard her own property, that of her marital life and also that of her husband."

فاذا كانت جبانة فرقت شيئ يعرض لها

"If a woman be concerned, in social interactions she will have fright and together with precaution and apprehension driving away many calamities and contention as well.” 

Nevertheless, Imam Ali (P) considers the best characteristics of women as the worst attributes of man pointing out that from the Islamic point of view the role and position of woman is completely different from that of man in marital life. The nature and personality of woman had been created in a manner that is compatible with such characteristics and virtues. 

The martyr, Motahari states: "The reason why the characteristics mentioned in this narration are not considered in general, in its absolute state and include particular instances, is that regarding stinginess, if its general state is mentioned, it will be incompatible with the certainties of the Holy Qur’an. The verse:

…وَمَنْ يُوقَ شُحَّ نَفْسِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

"Those who are shielded from their own avarice will be prosperous." (59:9)

Considers the element of prosperity as the point opposite to stinginess. It is expected of a woman to be proud towards strangers and not towards the husband, other women and/or her relatives close to her. What is focused upon is the pride in order to safeguard chastity and perform social responsibilities.

According to the above-mentioned verse, obsession of this world is condemned and one who can rescue oneself from this obsession and free oneself from worship of worldly matters or wealth will reach the stage of prosperity. So, it is not the best characteristic for a woman not to spend out of her property. Her Eminence Zahra, (P) as an example did not have stinginess in its general state. Stinginess is for the purpose of:

المرأة راعية علي بيت اهلها 

“The woman is the supervisor and the one responsible inside the house, in the family and in relation with her husband.”

As I have mentioned, Islam considers some characteristics favorable to woman, which are undesirable for man. Definitely, the general state of these characteristics because of its incompatibility with the certainties of the Holy Qur'an is not desired. The preference and encouragement of the characteristics of pride fear and stinginess is because of the vulnerability of woman. Stinginess and niggardliness is for the conjugal property according to Imam Ali (P) who states:

اذا كانت بخيلة حفظت مالها و مال بعلها

“Of course, both woman and man are responsible to safeguard conjugal property.”

The woman has an essence called chastity, which is vulnerable in social interactions therefore, she must possess a characteristic required to guard this vulnerability. Throughout history nowhere has it been mentioned that a woman violated a man, on the contrary, there have been so many cases regarding violations against woman. 

Therefore, fear is for safeguarding the chastity of a woman and encouraging to have this characteristic is observing precaution. Accordingly, perseverance and sensitivity in defending chastity as the basis of personality and complement of woman’s dignity has been recommended to her.

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/womans-dignity-words-amir-ul-muminin-Ali-ibn-abi-talib-Abbas-Ali-shameli

[Ralvi]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Are introspection and intuition never found in men? Are men negatively affected by having these traits?

Are groundedness and ability to fight never found in women? Are women negatively affected by having these traits? (I've had to fight before, and I'm very glad I could, though I'd rather have avoided it.) 

Not that kind of fight

some women’s intuition I find men lack and can’t understand. And probably find illogical but in reality has some ground in reality or at least pattern

its a certain kind of introspection and intuition unique to women. While men have their own.

its like both sexes can’t understand each other kind of deal

and some women (becuase I can’t know all women ever) can take things too far and need some ground. Men would provide that ground. Kind of like leadership(although I find some women are capable of leading but something holds them back, I don’t know what)

like I said each sex brings these kinds traits out on each other. Like a harmony

Edited March 24, 2019 by Ralvi

[Islandsandmirrors]

I agree with you @notme. I find that gender stereotypes and gender box-ins to be quite limiting. Being assertive when needed, nurturing, cooperative, are all good traits within either gender since no one wants to be around a stingy, difficult, overly stubborn person who is unwilling to be understanding. 

[Islandsandmirrors]

As for positive traits unique to each gender, it’s hard to say. People these days are all sorts of grey. You’d think that intuition is a woman’s thing, but I’ve met more women with zero intuition about others, and relationships, and men with incredible intuition and the ability to read someone well. 

[BTS]

5 hours ago, notme said:

Salam

It seems to me that all positive masculine traits (focus, protectiveness, physical strength) are also good traits in women, and all positive feminine traits (overview thinking, nurturing, cooperative) are also good traits in men. It seems to me that only the toxic traits should be fought against in either gender.

Are there any positive traits that are unique to one gender? 

According to me, men express their love less often then women. 

And men are more rigid in their opinion then women. 

But ofcourse it can vary from person to person.

I think men and women or maybe third gender all have same traits. Its all about stereotypes.

Edited March 24, 2019 by BTS

[BTS]

5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Leadership is a masculine trait even in an Islamic view. 

Not neccessarily. Women can lead just like men. Being Iman and Prophet is something else. It was more easy for men in Arab culture to spread Islam. As women were more conserve there.

But in everyday life where women can't lead?! Workplace, homes, schools or Government?!

Edited March 24, 2019 by BTS

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, BTS said:

Not neccessarily. Women can lead just like men. Being Iman and Prophet is something else. It was more easy for men in Arab culture to spread Islam. As women were more conserve there.

But in everyday life where women can't lead?! Workplace, homes, schools or Government?!

Men can give leadership to who ever they want. Even a child. Allah only gives leadership to men.

Women's leadership is limited one example is biology. A man could run for president for years and raise a family but a woman would have to a avoid getting pregnant to be a consistent leader.

Another example is physical traits women need to be protected by law (generally enforced by men) otherwise the rule of might favours men.

Spirituality is not the difference as seen from Qur'an.

"If any do deeds of righteousness be they male or female and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

so there must be other reasons for only Male Islamic leaders.

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Warilla

[eThErEaL]

6 hours ago, notme said:

Salam

It seems to me that all positive masculine traits (focus, protectiveness, physical strength) are also good traits in women, and all positive feminine traits (overview thinking, nurturing, cooperative) are also good traits in men. It seems to me that only the toxic traits should be fought against in either gender.

Are there any positive traits that are unique to one gender? 

Then why call them masculine and feminine? 

The reason is because these traits “predominate” in the gender.  No one would ever say they don’t exist in the opposite gender.  A woman can be very masculine if masculine qualities predominate in her.  And a man can be very feminine if feminine qualities predominate in him.  The point is that masculine qualities are masculine and feminine qualities are feminine.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by eThErEaL

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, BTS said:

for men in Arab culture to spread Islam. As women were more conserve there.

But in everyday life where women can't lead?! Workplace, homes, schools or Government?!

Women during time of Prophet (pbu) had more rule for spreading Islam & two of most wretched enemies of Prophet were  women that wife of Abulahab (la) cursed in Qur'an also based sunning history cause acceptance Islam by seconomic caliph was his sister as he made mutah forbidden by excuse of his sister

also lady Khadija  (رضي الله عنه) & lady Fatima (sa) had great rule in helping of Prophet for spread of Islam by their  wealth & support as Lady Zaynab (sa) didn't let people forgot Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) also from time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) specially in era of last four Shia Imams (عليه السلام) before born of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) their wives & mothers had great rule for keeping contact of people in touch of teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

[2Timeless]

Lol alot of the responses are conveniently ego boosts to a certain gender.

Edited March 24, 2019 by 2Timeless

[2Timeless]

5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

However assuming she is married and comes home, she needs to revert to her natural feminine, lest there be a clash - assuming her husband is naturally in his masculine.

"However assuming she is married and comes home, she needs to be an obedient submissive little dolly that helps her husbands ego blast through the roof".