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In the Name of God بسم الله
Haji 2003

Germany's vision for Islam in the West?

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Their argument that a  “German Islam” or “European Islam” would be a “contradiction of the universality of Islam which illuminates all ages and places at the same time.” is the most interesting to me.

The only question is, are they preaching “Turkish Islam”, or simply “Islam”? Are they contradicting their own claim at universality? And who decides whether a qualifier is needed?

Just questions, without knowing what “German Islam” or “Turkish Islam” actually entail beyond a few specifics in the article.

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This isn't acceptance, it is an attempt by the German Govt to control the Imams and leaders of the Muslim communities so they could steer them toward their secular agenda. 

They are trying to turn Germany into another Egypt or KSA where the secular government determines everything that goes on in the masjids, from what subjects they talk about, don't talk about during khutba to who is on the board of directors. They want to make Islam into a 'State Religion' as Christianity and Judaism have become. This would be a big disaster for the Muslim communities in Germany. 

The only way us Shia have been able to avoid falling into this trap is that the system of khums is not dependent on any government and it is given directly by the people and given directly to the Marjaa' without having to go 'through' the hands of corrupt government officials. 

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34 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

They are trying to turn Germany into another Egypt or KSA where the secular government determines everything that goes on in the masjids, from what subjects they talk about, don't talk about during khutba to who is on the board of directors. They want to make Islam into a 'State Religion' as Christianity and Judaism have become. This would be a big disaster for the Muslim communities in Germany. 

But according to the article, the Turkish government essentially controls 900 of the 2400 mosques. Should the German government be ok with that?

European countries do not know how to handle their Muslim populations, so it makes sense they would try to regulate mosques in various ways. How effective this will be is another question.

I agree that it can have negative consequences for the Muslim community, but it is a predominantly non-Muslim society with its own laws, with the limitations and contradictions therin.

Muslim countries themselves have similar set ups with mosques, churches and synagogues, right?

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47 minutes ago, Reza said:

But according to the article, the Turkish government essentially controls 900 of the 2400 mosques. Should the German government be ok with that?

European countries do not know how to handle their Muslim populations, so it makes sense they would try to regulate mosques in various ways. How effective this will be is another question.

I agree that it can have negative consequences for the Muslim community, but it is a predominantly non-Muslim society with its own laws, with the limitations and contradictions therin.

Muslim countries themselves have similar set ups with mosques, churches and synagogues, right?

Yes, and most Muslim countries also have corrupt, secular governments which attempt to control what goes on in the masjids by paying Imams and others and making their pay dependent on 'obedience' to the government in ways that are not part of Islam. For example, in KSA, the Imams are paid by Saudi Royals (which most everyone can agree are corrupt individuals). They will not say anything against, for example nonsense (Bin Sultan) even though the whole rest of the world is denouncing him for his thuggish behavior. This is not part of Islam, we are supposed to condemn Oppression and Injustice wheverever and whenever we see it and in whatever way we are able. This is wajib, and part of Amr Bil Maroof...

Some people will probably say, 'Oh you're only saying this because you're Shia and those leaders are Sunni and if, for example, the Iranian Govt did some act of oppression or injustice you wouldn't say anything'. What I would say to that is, show me the specific act of injustice, and bring evidence for it from 'non biased' sources and sources that are not well known for fabricating evidence and I will examine it, and if it is legitimate I will condemn it and also the government. I have the freedom to do that because I am not paid by the Iranian government and I have no financial or personal stake in this government's success or failure. Because as a Muslim, and follower of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), this is our wajibat, and this is more important than any government or political system which is temporary, and these come and go. 

But when a government starts to pay Imams and leaders in the Masjid, unless that government is headed by a Masoom or at least a leadership that are followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) and their only goal is Amr Bil Maroof....wa Nahiya Al Munkhar, then you will see very quickly that those masjids and those leaders begin to modify their message according to the wishes of the government because their livelihood is at stake. This is an extremely negative thing for the community and the cause of misguidance for most Muslim communities on Earth at the present. 

This is, btw, the same process by which the original message of Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) became corrupted. In the beginning, Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) had disciples (hawariyeen) who were honest and sincere and tried their best to preach and stick with the original message which was taught by Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) according to the Injeel. It was only when some of the preachers who never knew Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) , I.e. Paul of Tarsus (la), went toward the Roman State (the secular state), that the message of Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) became the 'State Religion' under the Roman Emperor Constantine, that the message of Prophet Esa((عليه السلام)) became corrupt and all sorts of innovations(bida') were introduced that were not in the original mesage, for example, the made up concept of 'Trinity'. This was done because Emporers, such as Constantine and their modern day equivalents (characters like Trump, May, and Merkel) are only interested in maintaining their power. They couldn't care less about a thing like 'Truth' or 'Justice'. The epic battle that all the Prophets(may peace be upon all of them) and their sincere followers have fought from Day 1 was with this group of Emperors and power hungry individuals. 

One thing I like about living in the US is that the US Government does not give one penny toward the masjids, so they are free in what they say, at least to a greater extent than most other places. So you routinely hear condemnation of US government policy in strong ways from the minbar, when this policy or policies harms Muslims or harms humanity in general, which is the way it should be. Also, when the government does a policy which is good and actually helpful (not very common these days, unfortunately) you also hear praise for this policy, but this is genuine praise that comes from a perspective of thought and contemplation, rather than from an official government memo, as it is in most places. 

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@Abu Hadi

Right on brother 

there is so much risk and potential for corruption it’s almist guaranteed 

the last lines of the articles seriously rubbed me the wrong way. They have ulterior motives

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I was born in Belgium. I am proud of my roots but I also know that once a piece of metal is bend it cannot be straightened as it was before. Metaphorically speaking of course. I don't bother with such politics when the sides are so different. I mean Europe and Islam are very different from each other.

I await for the emergence of the Imam of our time (May Allah subhana wa tala) hasten his appearance soon so we can witness the wonderful barakah of a Utopian peaceful world on Earth. I long to see that day but I may never witness it in my lifetime.

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4 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

The only way us Shia have been able to avoid falling into this trap is that the system of khums is not dependent on any government and it is given directly by the people and given directly to the Marjaa' without having to go 'through' the hands of corrupt government officials.

To its credit, and almost counter-intuitively, the IRI has not been in the business of sponsoring multiple places of worship at a state level.

As you correctly point out, the Germans are only offering to do what secular Muslim regimes have been doing, so they are not best placed to criticise the Germans.

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5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

 

The only way us Shia have been able to avoid falling into this trap is that the system of khums is not dependent on any government and it is given directly by the people and given directly to the Marjaa' without having to go 'through' the hands of corrupt government officials. 

:salam:

Might be different in the US but this is not true here. Twelver organizations are as much quiet on touchy issues such as LGBT or zionist agendas as Sunni ones. 

 

I personally blame all those in charge for making akhlaq or Muawiyah recurrent topics while occulting current issues that are perverting our souls. Such compromise goes against the revolutionary spirit of Shiism and would make Imam Mahdi ashamed of us.

Look at what happened to Sheikh Sekaleshfar when he got kicked out of his center and sent back to Iran. Now everyone got the message and everyone is scared. 

Funny you speak of Khums, I think it has almost become a scam to collect a tax and not fulfill your duty towards the community.

Edited by realizm

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17 minutes ago, realizm said:

Look at what happened to Sheikh Sekaleshfar when he got kicked out of his center and sent back to Iran. Now everyone got the message and everyone is scared. 

Funny you speak of Khums, I think it has almost become a scam to collect a tax and not fulfill your duty towards the community.

Salam as I know he kicked out from Germany because he explained Islamic ruling about punishment of Hemosexuality that is red line for germany like as holocust but Germany doesn't has about collecting Khums by him because it makes Shia Islamic center of Hamburg as greatest Shia center until now but it because founded with revolutionary Iranian before succession revolution in Iran ,germany & Europe afraid from its affection on European Muslims but they don't have any problem by collecting Khums by Khoei foundation because ithe doesn't relate to Islamic revolution but both centers have minimum affect on Shia of Europe if both centers were active like as Turkish mosques & wahabi mosques all Muslims in Europe were Shia Muslims even Muslims with sunning roots that migrated to europensure would become Shia like as whathe hapend in Belgium by affect of Islamic revolution of Iran even we had a martyr from Belgium that foughthe for Iran , during Iran-Iraq war that he was a sunning then converted to Shia & came to Qom for further studie's buthe after start of Iran -Iraq war he can't stand at hawza & rushed to battlefront & became a martyr.

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56 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as I know he kicked out from Germany because he explained Islamic ruling about punishment of Hemosexuality that is red line for germany like as holocust but Germany doesn't has about collecting Khums by him because it makes Shia Islamic center of Hamburg as greatest Shia center until now but it because founded with revolutionary Iranian before succession revolution in Iran ,germany & Europe afraid from its affection on European Muslims but they don't have any problem by collecting Khums by Khoei foundation because ithe doesn't relate to Islamic revolution but both centers have minimum affect on Shia of Europe if both centers were active like as Turkish mosques & wahabi mosques all Muslims in Europe were Shia Muslims even Muslims with sunning roots that migrated to europensure would become Shia like as whathe hapend in Belgium by affect of Islamic revolution of Iran even we had a martyr from Belgium that foughthe for Iran , during Iran-Iraq war that he was a sunning then converted to Shia & came to Qom for further studie's buthe after start of Iran -Iraq war he can't stand at hawza & rushed to battlefront & became a martyr.

:salam:

To be more precise Sheikh Sekaleshfar got kicked out of Australia. No center I know of spoke against that injustice whether Khoeist or Khameneist.

As an Iranian living in Iran you have to know how things are here. This revolutionary spree may have been true in the 80s, but nowadays you either follow the rules or leave. Unfortunately many  scholars choose the first option.

I didn't know about the Belgian shahid, but I know of French Jerome Kamal Courcelles who was a student in Qom and was martyred during an operation against MEK in Kurdistan. 

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48 minutes ago, realizm said:

didn't know about the Belgian shahid, but I know of French Jerome Kamal Courcelles who was a student in Qom and was martyred during an operation against MEK in Kurdistan

It's true I made mistake on his nationality but Islamic revolution had great rule for converting many Zaidis & sunnies to twelvers that Ahlul Bayt TV made a documentary about them .

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