Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
SyedOfBarha

The necessity of sin

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam,

I came across the following tradition in Sahih Muslim and I wondered if Shia books of Hadis have recorded something similar.  Would appreciate if someone could shed light on it. Does Shia faith believe in the necessity of Sin, which is what this hadis implies?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not seen such a Hadith in Shi'a sources as such, but there are some traditions about selfishness, narcissism and self-satisfaction

There is a Hadith from Imam Ali(علیه السلام):
 سيئة تسوءك خير من حسنة تعجبك 

The sin that upsets you is better than doing the good thing that makes you satisfied with your self

Another hadith from Imam Sadiq(علیه السلام):
 إن الرجل ليذنب الذنب فيندم عليه، ويعمل العمل فيسره ذلك، فيتراخى عن حاله تلك، فلأن يكون على حاله تلك خير له مما دخل فيه 
Someone commit sin and regrets it
And he does a good thing that makes him happy and then this happiness makes him out of regret.

Whereas the previous state (ie regret of guilty) is better for the state it was entered into.

Edited by Sayed Hossein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another Hadith:
Allah knows that sin is better for a believer than narcissism and self-satisfaction of good deeds
And if it were not so, Allah would never allow believers commit the guilty.
 عَلِمَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَ‏
أَنَّ الذَّنْبَ خَيْرٌ لِلْمُؤْمِنِ مِنَ الْعُجْبِ وَ لَوْ لَا ذَلِكَ مَا ابْتَلَاهُ بِذَنْبٍ أَبَداً.

 

also :

-عنه (عليه السلام) - في رجل يعمل العمل وهو خائف مشفق ثم يعمل شيئا من البر فيدخله شبه العجب به -: هو في حاله الأولى - وهو خائف - أحسن حالا منه في حال عجبه.
- عنه (عليه السلام): يدخل رجلان المسجد أحدهما عابد والآخر فاسق، فيخرجان منالمسجد والفاسق صديق والعابد فاسق، وذلك أنه يدخل العابد المسجد وهو مدل بعبادته وفكرته في ذلك، ويكون فكرة الفاسق في التندم على فسقه، فيستغفر الله من ذنوبه .
 الإمام علي (عليه السلام): ضاحك معترف بذنبه أفضل من باك مدل على ربه .

Edited by Sayed Hossein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

think in other way..... 

We found right route after we went in the wrong route ..... 

Mistakes are the secret of success...
Use your past memories..... 
Did you learn from mistakes and become a better person or you stayed stagnate without encountering problems in life and didnt do any mistake.... 

 You ll  become worse by not learning from mistakes.... 

Think in other way.... 
don’t give up this process.... Be honest to yourself.........

  #   Secret of Success 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2019 at 12:44 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

Salam,

I came across the following tradition in Sahih Muslim and I wondered if Shia books of Hadis have recorded something similar.  Would appreciate if someone could shed light on it. Does Shia faith believe in the necessity of Sin, which is what this hadis implies?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
 

Beautiful Hadith.  Thanks for sharing.  

May God bless Abu Hurarya’s (رضي الله عنه) soul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2019 at 9:44 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

:bismillah:

There is no doubt that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves those who offer sincere repentance. There is no doubt that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves the Tawwaboon. But this hadith is mentioning the necessity of sin, and if majority of people wont sin Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would replace them with people who sin repeatedly & then repent. I thought it is better to match the content of this hadith with the verses of Qur'an which are in my mind:

وَكَمْ قَصَمْنَا مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ كَانَتْ ظَالِمَةً وَأَنْشَأْنَا بَعْدَهَا قَوْمًا آخَرِينَ 
And how many a town which was iniquitous did We demolish, and We raised up after it another people! (21:11)

The above verse says various towns were demolished by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because of the wrongdoings of people. It is not the sunnah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to punish his servants who obeys His commands and avoid doing sins. Now lets see another verse:


هَا أَنْتُمْ هَٰؤُلَاءِ تُدْعَوْنَ لِتُنْفِقُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يَبْخَلُ ۖ وَمَنْ يَبْخَلْ فَإِنَّمَا يَبْخَلُ عَنْ نَفْسِهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنْتُمُ الْفُقَرَاءُ ۚ وَإِنْ تَتَوَلَّوْا يَسْتَبْدِلْ قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَكُونُوا أَمْثَالَكُمْ
 Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you. (47:38)

Here again replacement is mentioned but the newer generation will not be disobedient like the earlier ones. And now in last, the verse from chapter 5:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَنْ يَرْتَدَّ مِنْكُمْ عَنْ دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لَائِمٍ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ
O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's grace, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.(5:54)

And there are many verses in Qur'an which are in collision with the sunnah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned in your quoted hadith. Now lets see the verses mentioning the repentance and compare this hadith with these verses:

إِنَّمَا التَّوْبَةُ عَلَى اللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السُّوءَ بِجَهَالَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِنْ قَرِيبٍ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَتُوبُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا
Repentance with Allah is only for those who do evil in ignorance, then turn (to Allah) soon, so these it is to whom Allah turns (mercifully), and Allah is ever Knowing, Wise. (4:17)

وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّي تُبْتُ الْآنَ وَلَا الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا
 And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2019 at 12:44 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

Salam,

I came across the following tradition in Sahih Muslim and I wondered if Shia books of Hadis have recorded something similar.  Would appreciate if someone could shed light on it. Does Shia faith believe in the necessity of Sin, which is what this hadis implies?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
 

The point of this hadith is to point to the fact that this whole show is about God's display of His mercy and His forgiveness, not our display of the effort to not sin and to do good.  It is not about us, it is about Him and the manifestation of His attributes.  Many urafa have written and elaborated on this hadith and similar ones like it (such as Jalal Al-Din Ar-Rumi, and Ibn Arabi).  And secondly one ought to be careful about slandering and defaming someone like Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه), one has no right to call him a liar just because a number of hadith he has reported don't seem to make sense to us and because our inability to comprehend how he could have possibly reported so many hadith in comparison to other reporters and in consideration of how little time he spent with the Prophet (S).  

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:bismillah:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 135:

وَالَّذِينَ إِذَا فَعَلُوا فَاحِشَةً أَوْ ظَلَمُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ ذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا لِذُنُوبِهِمْ وَمَن يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَلَمْ يُصِرُّوا عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلُوا وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults-- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done. (English - Shakir) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

It is not the sunnah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to punish his servants who obeys His commands and avoid doing sins.

Thank you.  This is the key point.  And the verses you've quoted certainly contradict the Hadis.

Thanks to everyone else who replied with their thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SyedOfBarha said:

Thank you.  This is the key point.  And the verses you've quoted certainly contradict the Hadis.

Thanks to everyone else who replied with their thoughts.

Salam,

those verses prove the Hadith in question because they are pointing to the same reality; that God loves to forgive and be merciful, and that He loves a people that turn to Him.  

I find it incredibly odd how a beautiful Hadith can be viewed in an entirely different way.

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

those verses prove the Hadith in question because they are pointing to the same reality; that God loves to forgive and be merciful, and that He loves a people that turn to Him.  

Salam, 

On 3/24/2019 at 8:44 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

I think this hadith has been twisted as usually done in the Sunni hadith books.

I do think that this hadith would be mentioning the necessity of doing "astaghfar" or "towbah" instead of "comitting sins" and its content would be like this:

"If you were not to ask forgiveness, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace you ......."

For "istaghfar" It is not necessary to commit sin. Commiting sins and not obeying the commands of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have been condemned in several places in Qur'an.

وَمَا كَانَ اللّهُ مُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَسْتَغْفِرُونَ 8:33 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I find it incredibly odd how a beautiful Hadith can be viewed in an entirely different way.

I respect your point of view.  My first impression was the same as yours in that I was touched by the Hadis.  It highlights the importance of istaghfar and of Allah's mercy towards those who see istaghfar.  I am, however, trying to understand if sin is a necessity as is indicated by this Hadis.  From the Quranic verses shared above, necessity does not seem to be the case.  Allah wants us to avoid sin to the best of our abilities.  Why would he destroy someone if they reached the level of sinlessness?  Does Allah love the repentant sinner more than his humble servant who through hard work controls his nafs and reaches a state of sinlessness (or a level close to it)?

Allah knows best about the authenticity of particular narrations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

Does Allah love the repentant sinner more than his humble servant who through hard work controls his nafs and reaches a state of sinlessness (or a level close to it)?

1

Yes, that is the whole point.  He does love those who repent after sinning MORE than those who never have/will sin.  There is a secret in this.

This is precisely what made Iblis fall down.  He was the Master of worshippers, the Master of Following God's commandments... but he fell down because he was proud/arrogant due to the "perfect" slate he had as a doer of good deeds and as a "perfect" worshipper.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes, that is the whole point.  He does love those who repent after sinning MORE than those who never have/will sin.  There is a secret in this.

This is precisely what made Iblis fall down.  He was the Master of worshippers, the Master of Following God's commandments... but he fell down because he was proud/arrogant due to the "perfect" slate he had as a doer of good deeds and as a "perfect" worshipper.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2019 at 10:14 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

Should one then sin to survive in this world? 

Sounds like 'Jesus died for our sins'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/23/2019 at 11:44 PM, SyedOfBarha said:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
 

Shi'a don't accept any Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira.

Secondly, sins are something which pollute our soul. Why would Allah want something that pollutes the purity of his creation? Also, isn't sinning a violation of the laws and guidance of Allah which always cause harm to either yourself or someone else? Why would that be encouraged?

Also, if sins are necessary then why are the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) free of sins? You can argue that they are free of sin because they chose not to indulge in sins but wouldn't that just confirm the invalidity of the Hadith?

This Hadith smacks of being an intentional lie designed to protect sinners by attempting to justify their flaws. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Shi'a don't accept any Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira.

Secondly, sins are something which pollute our soul. Why would Allah want something that pollutes the purity of his creation? Also, isn't sinning a violation of the laws and guidance of Allah which always cause harm to either yourself or someone else? Why would that be encouraged?

Also, if sins are necessary then why are the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) free of sins? You can argue that they are free of sin because they chose not to indulge in sins but wouldn't that just confirm the invalidity of the Hadith?

This Hadith smacks of being an intentional lie designed to protect sinners by attempting to justify their flaws. 

 

41 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Should one then sin to survive in this world? 

Sounds like 'Jesus died for our sins'. 

Each and everyone of us are filled with sin from head to toe.  Your very existence is sin.  One doesn’t have to “try not to sin” unless you think you are a pure angel by default. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

I respect your point of view.  My first impression was the same as yours in that I was touched by the Hadis.  It highlights the importance of istaghfar and of Allah's mercy towards those who see istaghfar.  I am, however, trying to understand if sin is a necessity as is indicated by this Hadis.  From the Quranic verses shared above, necessity does not seem to be the case.  Allah wants us to avoid sin to the best of our abilities.  Why would he destroy someone if they reached the level of sinlessness?  Does Allah love the repentant sinner more than his humble servant who through hard work controls his nafs and reaches a state of sinlessness (or a level close to it)?

Allah knows best about the authenticity of particular narrations. 

Allah loves a sinner who becomes humble and repents. Than those whose not sinning make them arrogant.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Each and everyone of us are filled with sin from head to toe.  Your very existence is sin.  One doesn’t have to “try not to sin” unless you think you are a pure angel by default. 

But the divine command & directive is to avoid doing sins:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 32:

الَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ إِلَّا اللَّمَمَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ وَاسِعُ الْمَغْفِرَةِ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِكُمْ إِذْ أَنشَأَكُم مِّنَ الْأَرْضِ وَإِذْ أَنتُمْ أَجِنَّةٌ فِي بُطُونِ أُمَّهَاتِكُمْ فَلَا تُزَكُّوا أَنفُسَكُمْ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ

Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the Earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil). (English - Shakir)

Surah Ash-Shura, Verse 37:

وَالَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ وَإِذَا مَا غَضِبُوا هُمْ يَغْفِرُونَ

And those who. shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive. (English - Shakir)

Believers have been directed to seek help through "sabr" & "salah". One form of "sabr" is that where one exercise it on avoiding the ma'siyat and avoiding disobedience & sins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Each and everyone of us are filled with sin from head to toe

Even after we have asked for forgiveness ? I'm not saying we are infallible...but to say that we are loaded with sins even after we have asked for forgiveness is to deny the mercy of Allah, isn't it ?

19 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Your very existence is sin.

Please explain.

19 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

One doesn’t have to “try not to sin” unless you think you are a pure angel by default. 

No, I disagree. Part of the test to determine our piety and faith is to try to deny as well as to stay away from that which is haram. How successful we are is a different story, but without the desire and eventual action in the attempt to avoid sinning is similar to denying Islam as a valid faith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Allah loves a sinner who becomes humble and repents

Would you still dare to call him a sinner? 

It is a command for all servants not to despair from the mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Istaghfar is no doubt a great station. It not necessarily require one to do sin. Istaghfar can be done for having inner peace & tranquility. It can be done for increase in the divine blessings, both material & spiritual.

Surah Nooh, Verse 12:

وَيُمْدِدْكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَيَجْعَل لَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ وَيَجْعَل لَّكُمْ أَنْهَارًا

And help you with wealth and sons, and make for you gardens, and make for you rivers. (English - Shakir)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

But the divine command & directive is to avoid doing sins:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 32:

الَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ إِلَّا اللَّمَمَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ وَاسِعُ الْمَغْفِرَةِ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِكُمْ إِذْ أَنشَأَكُم مِّنَ الْأَرْضِ وَإِذْ أَنتُمْ أَجِنَّةٌ فِي بُطُونِ أُمَّهَاتِكُمْ فَلَا تُزَكُّوا أَنفُسَكُمْ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ

Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the Earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil). (English - Shakir)

Surah Ash-Shura, Verse 37:

وَالَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ وَإِذَا مَا غَضِبُوا هُمْ يَغْفِرُونَ

And those who. shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive. (English - Shakir)

Believers have been directed to seek help through "sabr" & "salah". One form of "sabr" is that where one exercise it on avoiding the ma'siyat and avoiding disobedience & sins.

I think this issue needs to be addressed . No one encourages sinning ,rather this all indicates how important is repenting and being humble.

So it means we always need to be humble.But if not making sin encourages us to be arrogant.The doing sin that' makes one humble and rpenter is better than not doing sin that' keeps one away from repenting.

We know Imam Ali as wAs sinless.But still you find his munajat full of repenting and expressing humbleness.Why because he knew importance and value of repenting and humility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, islam25 said:

I think this issue needs to be addressed . No one encourages sinning ,rather this all indicates how important is repenting and being humble.

So it means we always need to be humble.But if not making sin encourages us to be arrogant.The doing sin that' makes one humble and rpenter is better than not doing sin that' keeps one away from repenting.

We know Imam Ali as wAs sinless.But still you find his munajat full of repenting and expressing humbleness.Why because he knew importance and value of repenting and humility.

Also the Imams (عليه السلام) never had false humility, they were not pretenders (astaghfirullah).  If they repented for a sin or asked God to forgive them, they really meant it!  They weren’t putting a show even it was for the sake of teaching us (as I heard some people say).  No, they really saw themselves as sinners because their understanding of sin was something else altogether.  Their understanding of sin was not what the average person would mean by sin.  The very fact that a thing has existence and can “possibly” be seen as other than God is sin itself.  The Prophet (S) asks for forgiveness on behalf of the entire creation inasmuch (and for the mere fact that) it is NOT God.

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Akbar673 said:

 

No, I disagree. Part of the test to determine our piety and faith is to try to deny as well as to stay away from that which is haram. How successful we are is a different story, but without the desire and eventual action in the attempt to avoid sinning is similar to denying Islam as a valid faith.

Misunderstanding... I didn’t mean it like that.  

Of course one should not sin; one ought not to sin. 

But to think that one is currently free of sin and that they can prevent themselves from ever being touched by sin by their effort to keep away from haram...  this is the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Also the Imams (عليه السلام) never had false humility, they were not pretenders (astaghfirullah).  If they repented for a sin or asked God to forgive them, they really meant it!  They weren’t putting a show even it was for the sake of teaching us (as I heard some people say).  No, they really saw themselves as sinners because their understanding of sin was something else altogether.  Their understanding of sin was not what the average person would mean by sin.  The very fact that a thing has existence and can “possibly” be seen as other than God is sin itself.  The Prophet (S) asks for forgiveness on behalf of the entire creation inasmuch (and for the mere fact that) it is NOT God.

I never said they were pretending.Yes they really meant it.Yes there was  something more  when they were repenting. The new who really Allah' is,that made them constantly repent and be humble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, islam25 said:

I never said they were pretending.Yes they really meant it.Yes there was  something more  when they were repenting. The new who really Allah' is,that made them constantly repent and be humble.

 

1 hour ago, islam25 said:

I never said they were pretending.Yes they really meant it.Yes there was  something more  when they were repenting. The new who really Allah' is,that made them constantly repent and be humble.

:)  I know.  It was an elaboration.. adding to what you said.

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

But the divine command & directive is to avoid doing sins:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 32:

الَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ إِلَّا اللَّمَمَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ وَاسِعُ الْمَغْفِرَةِ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِكُمْ إِذْ أَنشَأَكُم مِّنَ الْأَرْضِ وَإِذْ أَنتُمْ أَجِنَّةٌ فِي بُطُونِ أُمَّهَاتِكُمْ فَلَا تُزَكُّوا أَنفُسَكُمْ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ

Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the Earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil). (English - Shakir)

Surah Ash-Shura, Verse 37:

وَالَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ وَإِذَا مَا غَضِبُوا هُمْ يَغْفِرُونَ

And those who. shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive. (English - Shakir)

Believers have been directed to seek help through "sabr" & "salah". One form of "sabr" is that where one exercise it on avoiding the ma'siyat and avoiding disobedience & sins.

This is why no educated man in the Islamic Tradition who reads that Hadith Narrated by Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه) would think that the Hadith is calling one not to avoid sinning.  :)

You should read what someone like Ibn Arabi says about this Hadith.  

Basically, the name of God as Forgiver necessitates that there be something to forgive just as the Name of Merciful and Powerful necessitates that there be something to exercise mercy and power over.

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

they really saw themselves as sinners because their understanding of sin was something else altogether.  Their understanding of sin was not what the average person would mean by sin.

In fact, as Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) explained, there is a different repentance for each of the categories of God’s servants:

Quote

Repentance is the rope of Allah, and the mainstay of His concern for His servants, who must always show repentance, in every state.   Each group of bondsmen has its own form of repentance:

The repentance of the Prophets is for the disquiet caused to their innermost being by any outward source of vexation,

while the repentance of the awliya' (friends of Allah) arises from the subtle change of hue in their thoughts.

The repentance of the pure lies in their calm abandonment of whatever oppresses them;

the repentance of the elite is for being occupied with anything other than Allah,

and the repentance of the common people is for wrong actions.

Each of them recognizes and is aware of the cause of his repentance ...

Misbah Al-Sharia:  https://www.al-Islam.org/lantern-of-the-path-Imam-jafar-as-Sadiq/repentance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

He does love those who repent after sinning MORE than those who never have/will sin.

You mean to say that Allah loves the repentant sinner more than the servant who tries to avoid sin and reaches a high state of purity (while still staying humble, unlike Iblees who became arrogant)?  If so, please support his argument in light of the Qur'an.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

You mean to say that Allah loves the repentant sinner more than the servant who tries to avoid sin and reaches a high state of purity (while still staying humble, unlike Iblees who became arrogant)?  If so, please support his argument in light of the Qur'an.

What does it mean to “reach” a high state of purity?  Purity from?  

Can you “reach” purity without being filthy?

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What does it mean to “reach” a high state of purity?  Purity from?  

Can you “reach” purity without being filthy?

It means to attain a state where one is progressively committing fewer and fewer sins until such state where they are completely or very nearly avoiding Major and Minor sins.  Is a person who struggles along this path to reach the end state (yes, starting from a "filthy" state) less beloved to Allah than one who sins, repents but reverts back to sinning?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/26/2019 at 12:06 PM, Akbar673 said:

Shi'a don't accept any Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira.

1

Not necessarily.  Maybe you and I can be an exception.

On 3/26/2019 at 12:06 PM, Akbar673 said:

Secondly, sins are something which pollute our soul.

1

You can look at sin in the way you have just mentioned (this is sin in the context of God's legislative command/ al-amr al-tashri'I), but you can also look at sin in the context of God's existential command/ al-amr at-takwini.  And this latter way of looking at sin would be:

The individual soul (nafs) is the biggest sin itself because it itself is the illusion that it and the world around it exist as a separate and independent entity (It is guilty of associating a partner to God in a hidden way (shirk khafee) by virtue of asserting itself or its own existence.  This is why the nafs needs to be transcended.  The very fact that one has nafs is itself more than sufficient reason to seek God's forgiveness.  Also creation implies "otherness to God", and so to see other than God is sin , and so creation implies sin.  God forgives this sin and as a result the creation exists no more.  It is then replaced by a new creation which again needs to be forgiven.  At every moment there is a new creation and at every moment God forgives us and we return to Him.  This is called " tajdeed al- khalq " (renewal of creation).             

Quote

Why would Allah want something that pollutes the purity of his creation? Also, isn't sinning a violation of the laws and guidance of Allah which always cause harm to either yourself or someone else? Why would that be encouraged?

 

Because without filth, there is no purity just like without night you cannot have the day or without darkness, you cannot have light.  You cannot go up if you are not down.  You cannot be here if you are not there.  etc etc..   Sin is therefore ontologically necessary.  Also, the divine names necessitate sin.  God as the All-Forgiving necessitates that there be sin to forgive just as God as the All-Powerful necessitates that there be something to exercise power over.  

Quote

Also, if sins are necessary then why are the Ahle Bayt (عليه السلام) free of sins? You can argue that they are free of sin because they chose not to indulge in sins but wouldn't that just confirm the invalidity of the Hadith?

The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) saw themselves as sinners needing to be forgiven (but their notion or understanding of sin) is incomparable to what the average man understands by sin.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

It means to attain a state where one is progressively committing fewer and fewer sins until such state where they are completely or very nearly avoiding Major and Minor sins.  Is a person who struggles along this path to reach the end state (yes, starting from a "filthy" state) less beloved to Allah than one who sins, repents but reverts back to sinning?

I believe you are changing your position.  In both cases one is still repenting from sinning (this is not what we were comparing earlier).  Before you were talking about someone not sinning at all.

So you now acknowledge how we all start of from a relatively low and dispicable state (what we both refer to as “filth”).  You further acknowledge that this state is a state of relative sin and as such requires us to ask for forgiveness and to turn to God.  

This “filth” is what we call clay/mud/stinking dark mud that man has been created from.  It is precisely this filthy mud that Satan could not for his life see what God found to be so special (and neither could the angels see it initially).  It is precisely this filth that makes the son of Adam display humility, that makes God display His Forgivess and Mercy.  This lowliness and filth is ironically the secret ingredient in Man that makes him the best of creation.  

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...