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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said, “Isa bin Maryam ((عليه السلام).) passed by a community.  He asked them, ‘Why are you people crying?’  They replied, ‘We are crying over our sins’.  He remarked, ‘If they give up these sins they would be forgiven’.” 

Sawab ul Aamal by Shiekh Sadooq.

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On 3/29/2019 at 5:06 AM, Reza said:

Sin is ubiquitous in this world and affects many, but saying our “very existence is a sin” is misleading. That’s definitely going into Christian territory. Islam usually doesn’t make extreme declarations like this. 

 

The reason behind these words are because human being themselves have no ability to get pure, guidance and forgiveness by themselves and they have nafs that incites them to evilness (Q.12:53). That is by themselves they are sinful, expect if God pour them His Mercy, which will purify, guide and forgive them. This is why we are the one who are sinful and God is pure.

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5 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said, “Isa bin Maryam ((عليه السلام).) passed by a community.  He asked them, ‘Why are you people crying?’  They replied, ‘We are crying over our sins’.  He remarked, ‘If they give up these sins they would be forgiven’.” 

Sawab ul Aamal by Shiekh Sadooq.

I remember when I was once confused that will Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive me my past sins, but then reading this back at that time made me understand that repentance and forgiveness comes from sincerely and with intention to never go back to those sinning, and God help the rest.

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 3/28/2019 at 10:06 PM, Reza said:

Sin is ubiquitous in this world and affects many, but saying our “very existence is a sin” is misleading. That’s definitely going into Christian territory. Islam usually doesn’t make extreme declarations like this. 

Yes, as a Christian, this is my understanding. I believe it because the Bible teaches we have all sinned and deserve judgment: 

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire." - Matthew 5:22 (words of Isa bin Maryam)

Jesus also turned the teachings of the religious leaders of his time upside-down when He said...

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone." - Matthew 15:19-20 (words of Isa bin Maryam)

This is where repentance comes in, for it is a changing of the heart, turning away from sin because it displeases God and turning towards God, surrendering one's life--heart, mind and soul to God's plan.

On 3/28/2019 at 10:16 PM, Reza said:

My position is still the same.  I'm trying to get a straight answer to the question which naturally arises when one reads the Hadis I posted, I.e,. is a sinner who avoids sin by practicing self-control inferior to a sinner who repeatedly sins yet repents?  Of course the first sinner would repent for his past sins, but ultimately he's reaching a point where is is committing fewer sin, whereas the other one is not avoiding sin, but is simply repenting.

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

And once we have received this pardon, our new heart does not allow us to make a practice of sinning. 

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." - 1 John 3:9

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28 minutes ago, MartyS said:

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice

First I appreciate meeting a Christian in this topic

But I have some questions

why God made us in a way that we obliged to commit sin?

If our sin is the result of original sin how Adam without original sin commit the first sin

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4 hours ago, MartyS said:

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice.

 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

And once we have received this pardon, our new heart does not allow us to make a practice of sinning. 

 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." - 1 John 3:9

Seems contradictory to say that sin is unavoidable but those born of God can avoid it.  Aren't we all born of God, I.e., his creatures? 

After reading all the replies, I'm left with the conclusion that people are thoroughly confused about his topic.  My own conclusions at this point are that sin can be avoided, repentance is needed in every state of one's journey towards purification and God wariness.  God prefers we avoid sin.  In no way does he want us to persist in sinning (even if we are repenting excessively).  Lapses and mistakes are possible, but reverting back to avoidance is a must.

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Do Muslims belive in the concept of original sin? Hasanain Rajabali

Also In my humble opinion if you commit sin , there is no guarantee that we have enough time to repent from it also from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) word “ little sins are worser than great sins “because we postpone repenting for little sins while we do repentancefor great sins as soon as possible when our soul has purity but by repeating little sins we decrease our purity of soul so we don’t ask forgiveness for little & great sins that is highly recommended that we say Astaghfirullah as much as possible during day & remember our works before sleep & ask forgiveness before sleep & for advanced persons at Salat al Layl we say 70 times Astghfurillah& in advance 300 times asking forgiveness after it in watr prayer that is recommended that we don’t miss watr & shafh prayers if we don’t have enough time for rest of night prayers 

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On 3/30/2019 at 9:45 AM, Sayed Hossein said:

If our sin is the result of original sin how Adam without original sin commit the first sin

Thank you for your question.

I believe God created Adam in His own image and likeness. In the beginning, Adam was without sin. He had no shame. He didn't even know what shame was. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden and were not ashamed. But Satan appeared to Eve as a harmless serpent and deceived her and tricked her into disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he ate, also. Then they hid themselves from God, because they knew they were naked. God was angry with Adam. He cursed Adam and Eve. Their children and their children's children were born with the desire to sin and the experience of shame. 

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On 3/30/2019 at 2:16 PM, SyedOfBarha said:

Seems contradictory to say that sin is unavoidable but those born of God can avoid it.  Aren't we all born of God, I.e., his creatures? 

After reading all the replies, I'm left with the conclusion that people are thoroughly confused about his topic.  My own conclusions at this point are that sin can be avoided, repentance is needed in every state of one's journey towards purification and God wariness.  God prefers we avoid sin.  In no way does he want us to persist in sinning (even if we are repenting excessively).  Lapses and mistakes are possible, but reverting back to avoidance is a must.

I agree. This topic is confusing. It is a mystery. When I placed my trust in Jesus and asked Him to forgive my sins, He took them away. He could do that because He had paid the price for my sins, in obedience to His Father. He not only took away my sins; my sin nature, inherited from my fore-father Adam was taken away also. Like a seed buried and dead, it became a new life in me, born of God. My new nature does not want to sin. It helps me avoid sin. When I do sin, because I'm not perfect yet, I ask God for forgiveness. Because I am righteous through Jesus, God does not condemn me.

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15 hours ago, MartyS said:

believe God created Adam in His own image and likeness. In the begI

Thanks for your explanation but we belive God/Allah has no certain shape because having any shap or figure by him limits God & it’s against Islamic belief but some sects like as Wahabist has same idea of considering a human figure for God/Allah & between Muslim sects we must not pray with or behind Muslims that think God/Allah has a figure so he doesn’t create Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) from his image & rest of your description about Eve & curse of God not acceptable by us 

 

15 hours ago, MartyS said:

When I do sin, because I'm not perfect yet, I ask God for forgiveness. Because I am righteous through Jesus, God does not condemn me.

It’s confusing here that Jesus is God or Another being is God & also belive that In judgement day we condemn ourselveses also our body parts blame us for sin one by one & God can condemn us but in he just shows whole of our life to ourselves & this is ourselves at last that condemns ourselves but God / Allah is very merciful & forgives sins except few ones that said & described that sins  in Qur'an that won’t forgive that sins in addition we have hope for intercession of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & her daughter & 12 Shia Imams that erases a great portion of sins but in a narration Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said a group of Shias for their sins will burn in Hell for 30 thousand years that after that we can  do intercession for them & before finishing their trial we can’t do anything for them 

which there is many stories from great pious ones said some of them had to suffer from punishment for some sins until judgement day that their sins forgiven by help of Imams for prayer someone else for them 

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Thanks for your explanation but we belive God/Allah has no certain shape because having any shap or figure by him limits God & it’s against Islamic belief...so he doesn’t create Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) from his image & rest of your description about Eve & curse of God not acceptable by us 

I, too, believe that God cannot be seen by mortal man; he is Spirit, everywhere present, and does not have a physical body. It is my understanding that the "image and likeness of God" makes us a different sort of creation from the rest of His living earthly creation, like animals. We have emotions, because God does. We can make rational choices because God can. We were made more like Him than the rest of Earth. And God gave us a spirit or soul that will never die. Our soul is eternal, because God wanted us to have fellowship and friendship with him forever; therefore, He made us in His image and likeness...

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the Earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the Earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.  - Genesis 1:26-27

If Adam had not sinned, he would still be alive in the Garden of Eden. Physical sickness and death were part of the curse...

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."  - Genesis 3:17-19

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It’s confusing here that Jesus is God or Another being is God & also belive that In judgement day we condemn ourselveses also our body parts blame us for sin one by one & God can condemn us but in he just shows whole of our life to ourselves & this is ourselves at last that condemns ourselves but God / Allah is very merciful & forgives sins except few ones that said & described that sins  in Qur'an that won’t forgive that sins in addition we have hope for intercession of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & her daughter & 12 Shia Imams that erases a great portion of sins but in a narration Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said a group of Shias for their sins will burn in Hell for 30 thousand years that after that we can  do intercession for them & before finishing their trial we can’t do anything for them...

Ashvazdanghe,

This is so interesting to me. Thank you for explaining your beliefs about God's judgment. I respect your beliefs. However, I believe that when Jesus died on the cross, because He was God in (sinless) human form, He was able to pay my judgment and give me His righteousness.

To better explain our Christian beliefs about judgment from God and righteousness through Jesus, please let me quote from Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus," (p. 200)

"God is not forcing 'some random person' to suffer for our sins. He is paying for our sins Himself.

A better analogy would be a son who has stolen from his father's business. If after wasting the goods, the son returns to the father and sincerely seeks forgiveness, it is within the father's right to forgive him. But not all would be settled yet; the accounts haven't been balanced. Someone has to take the hit for the stolen goods. If the father wants, he has every right to pay for his son's debt from his own account. That's fair.

We are the son and God is the father. We have incurred a debt against God, and we can't pay Him back. So in His mercy, He pays our sins for us. The wages of our sin is death, and He died on our behalf, balancing the accounts." (p. 200)

"Christianity teaches that sin is so destructive it shatters souls and destroys worlds. It's like a cancer that slowly consumes everything. That's why this world went from perfection in the garden of Eden to being the sick and depressing place it is today. Do you think God would allow any of that stuff in heaven? Of course He wouldn't. If heaven is going to be a perfect place, by definition there can be no sinners in it. None at all." (p. 201)

I hope this is helpful. I look forward to further dialog. Peace and blessings!

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4 hours ago, MartyS said:

I hope this is helpful. I look forward to further dialog. Peace and blessings!

Thanks for your response although it’s a typical answer with weak reasoning because nobody else will punish for problem betwen a father & his son & it’s their business if they involve a third person for punishment that is injustice & God/Allah is always just also in Islamic (Shia Islamic) viewpoint God /Allah reward each one  good deed with ten rewards & punishes every one bad deed with just one punishment that gave a window near 10 days for repentance from bad deeds that will erase bad deeds so his forgiveness always covers his punishment & his reward exceeds his fine 

forgivness in Islam | Dr. Sayed Ammar Nakhshawani | Islamic education

https://youtu.be/LSkgUa4fGLk

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I see that is very generous of Allah. If salvation is a matter of doing more good deeds than bad, one can hope to be found on the positive side of the scales. That would be very comforting except that the Bible says if someone sins, they need to die. It makes no distinction between the pettiest of sins and the most heinous crime. An example in Nabeel's book...

"Imagine you were sent to court for jaywalking (crossing the street illegally). The guy before you is found guilty of rape and murder and sentenced to execution. Then you are found guilty of jaywalking and also sentenced to execution." (p 201)

But since our sins are against God, He has the right to forgive us. And since Jesus is God, He can die in our place.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

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On 3/24/2019 at 10:14 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence

Not sinning is very difficult but if you achieved this then you are free.
Free from fear, desires , hatred , attachment etc. free from what your Nafs suggests to you. 

You will be able to transform your Nafs into Nafs-e-Mutmainah.
You become one with Allah, you do not exist anymore.
Existence is hell.

On 3/24/2019 at 10:14 AM, SyedOfBarha said:
He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
 

You will be replaced by those who still commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah.                                                 They will exist until they attain the state of not sinning.

                         

 

Edited by Raheel Yunus

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7 hours ago, MartyS said:

I see that is very generous of Allah. If salvation is a matter of doing more good deeds than bad, one can hope to be found on the positive side of the scales. That would be very comforting except that the Bible says if someone sins, they need to die. It makes no distinction between the pettiest of sins and the most heinous crime. An example in Nabeel's book...

"Imagine you were sent to court for jaywalking (crossing the street illegally). The guy before you is found guilty of rape and murder and sentenced to execution. Then you are found guilty of jaywalking and also sentenced to execution." (p 201)

But since our sins are against God, He has the right to forgive us. And since Jesus is God, He can die in our place.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

There are sins that the punishment will be dead, but not all sins leads to such a punishment. Our sins are not against God. Our sins are against ourselves, because it is the individual who do injustice to his own soul.

In Islam, the salvation have nothing to do with blood or meat for God;

Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good. 22:37

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On 3/25/2019 at 12:00 PM, eThErEaL said:

The point of this hadith is to point to the fact that this whole show is about God's display of His mercy and His forgiveness, not our display of the effort to not sin and to do good.  It is not about us, it is about Him and the manifestation of His attributes.  Many urafa have written and elaborated on this hadith and similar ones like it (such as Jalal Al-Din Ar-Rumi, and Ibn Arabi).  And secondly one ought to be careful about slandering and defaming someone like Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه), one has no right to call him a liar just because a number of hadith he has reported don't seem to make sense to us and because our inability to comprehend how he could have possibly reported so many hadith in comparison to other reporters and in consideration of how little time he spent with the Prophet (S).  

This phrase shows Allah's mercy 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

it is not riddled with philosophical inaccuracies and probable false claims.

 

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On 3/24/2019 at 9:44 AM, SyedOfBarha said:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said:

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

:bismillah:

وَذَرُوا ظَاهِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَبَاطِنَهُ ۚ 
(And abandon open and secret sin) 6:120

This is the clear command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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