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SyedOfBarha

The necessity of sin

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8 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

It means to attain a state where one is progressively committing fewer and fewer sins until such state where they are completely or very nearly avoiding Major and Minor sins.  Is a person who struggles along this path to reach the end state (yes, starting from a "filthy" state) less beloved to Allah than one who sins, repents but reverts back to sinning?

Brother it is not like that'.Actually to attain nearness of Allah one has to necessarily repent.

And it is not necessary that to repent one has sin .We can repent. Without doing sin.

So repenting is great thing that brings one close to Allah.

The one who is near to Allah repents more and more even if he donot commit sin.

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1 minute ago, islam25 said:

Brother it is not like that'.Actually to attain nearness of Allah one has to necessarily repent.

And it is not necessary that to repent one has sin .We can repent. Without doing sin.

So repenting is great thing that brings one close to Allah.

The one who is near to Allah repents more and more even if he donot commit sin.

those who have attained to a Station or Maqam of Repentance the Tawwabun) are constantly repenting as you said.  And they are not necessarily sinning in the context of contravening God’s legislative commands, but they presumably see themselves sinning in the context of God’s existential command (by their realization that the existence of creation (in as much as it is other than God) is sin, and therefore there is a constant need to return to God.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

This “filth” is what we call clay/mud/stinking dark mud that man has been created from. 

Can you explain as to why you have not taken the starting point I.e., Turab, which infact is not considered as filth? We have been created from Turab and then the process goes on wards to reach to that "allegedly" filthy state I.e., black altered mud. In fact the filthy state is what we call sperm drop or semen or nutfah and that is truly considered as filth. 

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One of the Prophetic mission is "Yuzzakkihim", if everything that exists is the manifestation of asma-e-ilahiyyah, then there has to be some who born pure, remain pure throughout their lives and die in purity. There has to be a shajr-e-taiyyebah and there has to be some who belongs to that shajr.

Edited by Salsabeel

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18 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

One of the Prophetic mission is "Yuzzakkihim", if everything that exists is the manifestation of asma-e-ilahiyyah, then there has to be some who born pure, remain pure throughout their lives and die in purity. There has to be a shajr-e-taiyyebah and there has to be some who belongs to that shajr.

I believe my answers that I have given on this thread can still accommodate your class distinction between various species of “clay” or “mud”.  

The Prophet (S) seeks forgivess from God on behalf of the entire creation (this is how he purifies creation).  The Prophet (S) makes himself responsible for the sins of all of creation... he (S) sets everything right.  As I have said earlier, “sin” means something entirely different between the Prophet (S) who according to your classification is made of Turab and stays as turab and an average person (who according to your classification, ends up becoming filthy mud).  

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I believe my answers that I have given on this thread can still accommodate your class distinction between various species of “clay” or “mud”.  

The Prophet (S) seeks forgivess from God on behalf of the entire creation (this is how he purifies creation).  The Prophet (S) makes himself responsible for the sins of all of creation... he (S) sets everything right.  As I have said earlier, “sin” means something entirely different between the Prophet (S) who according to your classification is made of Turab and stays as turab and an average person (who according to your classification, ends up becoming filthy mud).  

@SyedOfBarha @Salsabeel

Just read the invocations of Imam Ali so that you may understand importance of repenting.

"My Lord, I am Your powerless sinning slave and Your repentant bondman, So do not make me one of those from whom You turn away Your face, and whom his negligence has secluded from Your forgiveness.

    My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their looking at You." 

 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Just read the invocations of Imam Ali so that you may understand importance of repenting.

Thank you but none of us is arguing against the importance of repenting. This whole talk is with reference to the hadith mentioned in OP, which gives the impression as doing sins are necessary for human existence otherwise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would remove us and bring in our place those who do sins & then repent. 

The alleged hadith itself is limiting the role of istaghfar to asking forgiveness against sins only.

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Human knowledge is limited while God is Supreme in knowledge & power. We sometimes remain unaware of our sins but He knows everything as mentioned in the following verse:

Surah Ghafir, Verse 19:

يَعْلَمُ خَائِنَةَ الْأَعْيُنِ وَمَا تُخْفِي الصُّدُورُ

He knows the stealthy looks and that which the breasts conceal. (English - Shakir)

I see this fact alone as a reason for doing continuous dhikr I.e., istaghfar.

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21 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Thank you but none of us is arguing against the importance of repenting. This whole talk is with reference to the hadith mentioned in OP, which gives the impression as doing sins are necessary for human existence otherwise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would remove us and bring in our place those who do sins & then repent. 

The alleged hadith itself is limiting the role of istaghfar to asking forgiveness against sins only.

That is true. Repenting is so great it overweighs not sinning and not repenting..

We can rephrase it otherways.that not sinning and repenting is better' than sinning and repenting .

And sinning and repenting is better' than not sinning and not repenting.

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2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

That is true. Repenting is so great it overweighs not sinning and not repenting..

We can rephrase it otherways.that not sinning and repenting is better' than sinning and repenting .

And sinning and repenting is better' than not sinning and not repenting.

What would someone be repenting from if they were not sinning?  I think we have no choice but to admit that these oft-repenters were sinning but their understanding of sin was not what the avg person understands by sin.  

The other option would be to think they were putting some kind of show or were merely teaching us how to repent but were themselves not really repenting from their sins.  Which I personally don’t buy.

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17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

What would someone be repenting from if they were not sinning?  I think we have no choice but to admit that these oft-repenters were sinning but their understanding of sin was not what the avg person understands by sin.  

The other option would be to think they were putting some kind of show or were merely teaching us how to repent but were themselves not really repenting from their sins.  Which I personally don’t buy.

Yes .The definition of sinning is different for different people.

Can we thank Allah for his blessings.No,neither we can enumerate nor we can thank Allahs blessings .Now if we try with all our efforts to thank Allah ,It won't compensate His mercy and blessings.So we have no option but to repent.

Following is Imam Ali as invocations that will help us.

My Lord, I am Your powerless sinning slave and Your repentant bondman, So do not make me one of those from whom You turn away Your face, and whom his negligence has secluded from Your forgiveness.

    My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eves of our hearts with the light of their looking at You

So Imam Ali clearly indicates being negligent to Allah' great sin.

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2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Can we thank Allah for his blessings.No,neither we can enumerate nor we can thank Allahs blessings .Now if we try with all our efforts to thank Allah ,It won't compensate His mercy and blessings.So we have no option but to repent.

8

excellent point.

 

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5 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

excellent point.

 

Now again Imam Alis innovation clearly indicates that having relation with any one (other than Allah) is great veil (sin). 

Now complete breaking relation with everything is necessary to reach close to Allah.

Now as ordinary individual we can never think having relation or dependence on any one  or any thing is sin.

So as you rightly said definition of sin is different for different people.

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22 minutes ago, islam25 said:

@Salsabeel.

One more thing Repenting converts evil' deeds into good deeds according to Qur'an.

So Repenting has double benefit.

Indeed, but again I don't want to limit the benefits of repenting. Perhaps I cannot count its benefits.

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I believe you are changing your position.  In both cases one is still repenting from sinning (this is not what we were comparing earlier).  Before you were talking about someone not sinning at all.

So you now acknowledge how we all start of from a relatively low and dispicable state (what we both refer to as “filth”).  You further acknowledge that this state is a state of relative sin and as such requires us to ask for forgiveness and to turn to God.  

My position is still the same.  I'm trying to get a straight answer to the question which naturally arises when one reads the Hadis I posted, I.e,. is a sinner who avoids sin by practicing self-control inferior to a sinner who repeatedly sins yet repents?  Of course the first sinner would repent for his past sins, but ultimately he's reaching a point where is is committing fewer sin, whereas the other one is not avoiding sin, but is simply repenting.

Quote

if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence

If I make a vow today to give up a major sin and avoid that sin for the rest of my life, would God favor someone (over me) who indulges in that same sin but keeps repenting over it?  Not what is if I avoid all major sins, then what? Should I expect to be wiped out?

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8 hours ago, islam25 said:

not sinning and repenting is better' than sinning and repenting .

And sinning and repenting is better' than not sinning and not repenting.

That's a nice and simple way of stating it.  Though I'm not sure about the order of things.  I would arrange it as follows, using ">" to mean "greater than" :-

(1) Not sinning & repenting > (2) Not sinning & Not repenting > (3) Sinning & repenting > (4) Sinning & Not repenting.

(1) and (2) are the most dangerous states according to the hadis in question, because:

Quote

if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence

 

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1 hour ago, SyedOfBarha said:

That's a nice and simple way of stating it.  Though I'm not sure about the order of things.  I would arrange it as follows, using ">" to mean "greater than" :-

(1) Not sinning & repenting > (2) Not sinning & Not repenting > (3) Sinning & repenting > (4) Sinning & Not repenting.

(1) and (2) are the most dangerous states according to the hadis in question, because:

 

That is where you go wrong.Repenting is not minor thing.don’t underestimate.

Sinning and Repenting is better than not sinning and not repenting.

Rest Allah knows better.

 

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3 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

My position is still the same.  I'm trying to get a straight answer to the question which naturally arises when one reads the Hadis I posted, I.e,. is a sinner who avoids sin by practicing self-control inferior to a sinner who repeatedly sins yet repents?  Of course the first sinner would repent for his past sins, but ultimately he's reaching a point where is is committing fewer sin, whereas the other one is not avoiding sin, but is simply repenting.

3

There is no such thing as being completely free of sin..to think you can become free of sin is an error.  you can be free from certain sins or vices (but not sin altogether).  Only God is free of sin and absolutely pure.  One who is protected from sins is not protected through himself but through God Himself.  So the one protected always sees himself as a sinner.          

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Sinning and Repenting is better than not sinning and not repenting.

Agreed.  Referring back to Imam as-Sadiq's (عليه السلام) hadis I quoted above:

Quote

[Allah's servants] must always show repentance, in every state ...

 

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On 3/26/2019 at 12:30 PM, eThErEaL said:

Each and everyone of us are filled with sin from head to toe.  Your very existence is sin.  One doesn’t have to “try not to sin” unless you think you are a pure angel by default. 

Sin is ubiquitous in this world and affects many, but saying our “very existence is a sin” is misleading. That’s definitely going into Christian territory. Islam usually doesn’t make extreme declarations like this. 

 

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4 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

My position is still the same.  I'm trying to get a straight answer to the question which naturally arises when one reads the Hadis I posted, I.e,. is a sinner who avoids sin by practicing self-control inferior to a sinner who repeatedly sins yet repents?  Of course the first sinner would repent for his past sins, but ultimately he's reaching a point where is is committing fewer sin, whereas the other one is not avoiding sin, but is simply repenting.

I think this is a false dilemma.

Prevention is better than cure. So, if we’re talking about individual sins, it’s obvious refraining beforehand is superior. But this requires special skill and foresight that many won’t have.

Those we acknowledge as “never sinners” were given divine guidance to be so (and receptive to it), as their mission in this world require it. The rest of us don’t have the same expectations and burdens, so repentance is there for our (highly) likely slip ups.

Not sure why this needs stratification.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Only God is free of sin and absolutely pure.

God is beyond the concept of sin. The only relevant attributes of God are ones described by God himself (mercy, justice, etc) Anything else we attribute to God (like sin or lack of) is our own human projection.

Not completely on topic here, but wanted to point out this distinction.

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15 minutes ago, Reza said:

God is beyond the concept of sin. The only relevant attributes of God are ones described by God himself (mercy, justice, etc) Anything else we attribute to God (like sin or lack of) is our own human projection.

Not completely on topic here, but wanted to point out this distinction.

I used it hesitatingly but had no choice within that context (and in order to make a point).   I understand your point and agree with you.

I still said it anyway because at the end of the day, everything is a human projection.  Even to say “beyond” is still a human projection.  

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15 minutes ago, Reza said:

I think this is a false dilemma.

Prevention is better than cure. So, if we’re talking about individual sins, it’s obvious refraining beforehand is superior. But this requires special skill and foresight that many won’t have.

Those we acknowledge as “never sinners” were given divine guidance to be so (and receptive to it), as their mission in this world require it. The rest of us don’t have these expectations and burdens, so repentance is there for our (highly) likely slip ups.

 Not sure why this needs stratification.

What then is the intended message of the hadis?  It contains a binary choice between two states:  "If you stay away from sin completely, you will be wiped out.  If you sin and repent, you will be saved." 

Goes without saying that besides a Masoom, none can be completely sinless (in all its inner and outer senses).  The Hadis is assuming, however, perhaps for argument's sake, that sinlessness is possible.  The great ulema and urafa have attained high states of taqwa.  Some would say they even attained sinlessness in its basic, apparent sense, I.e., not violating any legal precepts.  It's entirely debatable but see Imam as-Sadiq's (عليه السلام) hadis about categories of servants, quoted here previously.

At one level, the hadis' sole intent seems to be to stress the importance and the highly preferential status of repentance.  On the hand, it can be taken to mean "carry on" so long as you repent. 

Far from me to pass a ruling on its authenticity.  Allah knows best.

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Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said, “Isa bin Maryam ((عليه السلام).) passed by a community.  He asked them, ‘Why are you people crying?’  They replied, ‘We are crying over our sins’.  He remarked, ‘If they give up these sins they would be forgiven’.” 

Sawab ul Aamal by Shiekh Sadooq.

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On 3/29/2019 at 5:06 AM, Reza said:

Sin is ubiquitous in this world and affects many, but saying our “very existence is a sin” is misleading. That’s definitely going into Christian territory. Islam usually doesn’t make extreme declarations like this. 

 

The reason behind these words are because human being themselves have no ability to get pure, guidance and forgiveness by themselves and they have nafs that incites them to evilness (Q.12:53). That is by themselves they are sinful, expect if God pour them His Mercy, which will purify, guide and forgive them. This is why we are the one who are sinful and God is pure.

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5 hours ago, SyedOfBarha said:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said, “Isa bin Maryam ((عليه السلام).) passed by a community.  He asked them, ‘Why are you people crying?’  They replied, ‘We are crying over our sins’.  He remarked, ‘If they give up these sins they would be forgiven’.” 

Sawab ul Aamal by Shiekh Sadooq.

I remember when I was once confused that will Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive me my past sins, but then reading this back at that time made me understand that repentance and forgiveness comes from sincerely and with intention to never go back to those sinning, and God help the rest.

Edited by Abu Nur

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On 3/28/2019 at 10:06 PM, Reza said:

Sin is ubiquitous in this world and affects many, but saying our “very existence is a sin” is misleading. That’s definitely going into Christian territory. Islam usually doesn’t make extreme declarations like this. 

Yes, as a Christian, this is my understanding. I believe it because the Bible teaches we have all sinned and deserve judgment: 

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire." - Matthew 5:22 (words of Isa bin Maryam)

Jesus also turned the teachings of the religious leaders of his time upside-down when He said...

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone." - Matthew 15:19-20 (words of Isa bin Maryam)

This is where repentance comes in, for it is a changing of the heart, turning away from sin because it displeases God and turning towards God, surrendering one's life--heart, mind and soul to God's plan.

On 3/28/2019 at 10:16 PM, Reza said:

My position is still the same.  I'm trying to get a straight answer to the question which naturally arises when one reads the Hadis I posted, I.e,. is a sinner who avoids sin by practicing self-control inferior to a sinner who repeatedly sins yet repents?  Of course the first sinner would repent for his past sins, but ultimately he's reaching a point where is is committing fewer sin, whereas the other one is not avoiding sin, but is simply repenting.

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

And once we have received this pardon, our new heart does not allow us to make a practice of sinning. 

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." - 1 John 3:9

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28 minutes ago, MartyS said:

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice

First I appreciate meeting a Christian in this topic

But I have some questions

why God made us in a way that we obliged to commit sin?

If our sin is the result of original sin how Adam without original sin commit the first sin

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4 hours ago, MartyS said:

For the Christian, sin is unavoidable and we cannot live a perfect life, therefore, only repenting and receiving God's total complete pardon will satisfy God's justice.

 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

And once we have received this pardon, our new heart does not allow us to make a practice of sinning. 

 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." - 1 John 3:9

Seems contradictory to say that sin is unavoidable but those born of God can avoid it.  Aren't we all born of God, I.e., his creatures? 

After reading all the replies, I'm left with the conclusion that people are thoroughly confused about his topic.  My own conclusions at this point are that sin can be avoided, repentance is needed in every state of one's journey towards purification and God wariness.  God prefers we avoid sin.  In no way does he want us to persist in sinning (even if we are repenting excessively).  Lapses and mistakes are possible, but reverting back to avoidance is a must.

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Do Muslims belive in the concept of original sin? Hasanain Rajabali

Also In my humble opinion if you commit sin , there is no guarantee that we have enough time to repent from it also from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) word “ little sins are worser than great sins “because we postpone repenting for little sins while we do repentancefor great sins as soon as possible when our soul has purity but by repeating little sins we decrease our purity of soul so we don’t ask forgiveness for little & great sins that is highly recommended that we say Astaghfirullah as much as possible during day & remember our works before sleep & ask forgiveness before sleep & for advanced persons at Salat al Layl we say 70 times Astghfurillah& in advance 300 times asking forgiveness after it in watr prayer that is recommended that we don’t miss watr & shafh prayers if we don’t have enough time for rest of night prayers 

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On 3/30/2019 at 9:45 AM, Sayed Hossein said:

If our sin is the result of original sin how Adam without original sin commit the first sin

Thank you for your question.

I believe God created Adam in His own image and likeness. In the beginning, Adam was without sin. He had no shame. He didn't even know what shame was. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden and were not ashamed. But Satan appeared to Eve as a harmless serpent and deceived her and tricked her into disobeying God's command to not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he ate, also. Then they hid themselves from God, because they knew they were naked. God was angry with Adam. He cursed Adam and Eve. Their children and their children's children were born with the desire to sin and the experience of shame. 

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On 3/30/2019 at 2:16 PM, SyedOfBarha said:

Seems contradictory to say that sin is unavoidable but those born of God can avoid it.  Aren't we all born of God, I.e., his creatures? 

After reading all the replies, I'm left with the conclusion that people are thoroughly confused about his topic.  My own conclusions at this point are that sin can be avoided, repentance is needed in every state of one's journey towards purification and God wariness.  God prefers we avoid sin.  In no way does he want us to persist in sinning (even if we are repenting excessively).  Lapses and mistakes are possible, but reverting back to avoidance is a must.

I agree. This topic is confusing. It is a mystery. When I placed my trust in Jesus and asked Him to forgive my sins, He took them away. He could do that because He had paid the price for my sins, in obedience to His Father. He not only took away my sins; my sin nature, inherited from my fore-father Adam was taken away also. Like a seed buried and dead, it became a new life in me, born of God. My new nature does not want to sin. It helps me avoid sin. When I do sin, because I'm not perfect yet, I ask God for forgiveness. Because I am righteous through Jesus, God does not condemn me.

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15 hours ago, MartyS said:

believe God created Adam in His own image and likeness. In the begI

Thanks for your explanation but we belive God/Allah has no certain shape because having any shap or figure by him limits God & it’s against Islamic belief but some sects like as Wahabist has same idea of considering a human figure for God/Allah & between Muslim sects we must not pray with or behind Muslims that think God/Allah has a figure so he doesn’t create Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) from his image & rest of your description about Eve & curse of God not acceptable by us 

 

15 hours ago, MartyS said:

When I do sin, because I'm not perfect yet, I ask God for forgiveness. Because I am righteous through Jesus, God does not condemn me.

It’s confusing here that Jesus is God or Another being is God & also belive that In judgement day we condemn ourselveses also our body parts blame us for sin one by one & God can condemn us but in he just shows whole of our life to ourselves & this is ourselves at last that condemns ourselves but God / Allah is very merciful & forgives sins except few ones that said & described that sins  in Qur'an that won’t forgive that sins in addition we have hope for intercession of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) & her daughter & 12 Shia Imams that erases a great portion of sins but in a narration Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said a group of Shias for their sins will burn in Hell for 30 thousand years that after that we can  do intercession for them & before finishing their trial we can’t do anything for them 

which there is many stories from great pious ones said some of them had to suffer from punishment for some sins until judgement day that their sins forgiven by help of Imams for prayer someone else for them 

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