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In the Name of God بسم الله
Silas

Wahhabism/Salafism and the future

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I was having a discussion with some westerners last night in a coffee shop, and the issue of Islam came up.

They made the claim that modern Islam is inherently Wahhabist, since it is promoted and financed by Saudi Arabia (obviously, this doesn't apply to the Shia), and that more moderate groups and interpretations have been marginalized over the last 50 years or so, and what remains is radical, intolerant, xenophobic, and oppressive. They claim that while Islam is not the problem, certain branches of Islam and the adherents of those branches are most definitely a problem. 

The subtext here was the analogy that there might be good Nazis, but they are still Nazis, and they will always be against us

They even pointed to the massacres of Shia by Sunni radicals in India over the last few decades as an example of the violent ones "taking over".

These westerners firmly believe that if they were to become a minority in their own nation, and if the Sunni Muslims were to take over, a genocide would result, like what happened to the Armenians.

Is this at all accurate? Are we really doomed to see the rise of an ugly, sectarian branch of Islam that begins to take over nations and then launches new holocausts? 

I went over to the Sunni forums to discuss this directly with them, but I was indirectly called a western imperialist animal --that wasn't encouraging. many over there were repeating ISIS talking points.

 

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Whilst the Salafi penetration of Sunni Islam has had far reaching consequences for decades now. It does seem many traditional Sunnis who follow madhabs (which still form the majority) are gradually awakening and realising the difference.

The actions of Saudi and controversy as a result is also exposing the true ugly nature of this ideology. It becomes increasingly difficult to defend them. Be it the man-made famine they are causing in Yemen to the destruction of over 90% of ancient Islamic heritage sites in their country to the Daesh offshoot, traced back in many ways to Saudi.

As long as there are Saudi petro dollars, the ideology will spread, but it is being countered both with moderate Sunnis, Sufis and Shias.

Look at Nigeria, where 40 years ago there no Shia, now there are 3 million and growing. Or in Russia, where the teachings of Ahlul Bayt began spreading amongst "Sunnis" who had lost the link to their religion after decades of Soviet rule.

 

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It is very easy to quote an out of context, incomplete verse from Holy Qur'an and take over the minds of ignorant Sunnis. Their Tablighi Jamaat is very active in such dawaah and they successfully convert mosque after mosque. Moreover, the two most important holy place of Islam (unfortunately) falls under a wahabi regime. That does have an influence. No wonder, you see wahabis everywhere these days. 

51 minutes ago, Silas said:

They even pointed to the massacres of Shia by Sunni radicals in India over the last few decades as an example of the violent ones "taking over".

You mean in Pakistan or Indian Subcontinent. 

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54 minutes ago, Silas said:

They made the claim that modern Islam is inherently Wahhabist, since it is promoted and financed by Saudi Arabia (obviously, this doesn't apply to the Shia), and that more moderate groups and interpretations have been marginalized over the last 50 years or so, and what remains is radical, intolerant, xenophobic, and oppressive.

Yes and no. The spread of Sunni Wahabism has definitely infected Sunni Islam over the last few decades and its definitely been promoted and financed by Saudi so they are right on that point, however that doesn't take into account the 10-15% of Islam that is Shi'a as well as the % of Sunni that have managed to remain Moderate in their beliefs. On the otherhand, Saudi has done a masterful job in promoting extremism amongst the lesser priveleged, distraught and those Sunni that have suffered. It basically radicalized them against the West by claiming their problems were a result of Western greed for Petroleum profits. Since they chose to traget the distraught moreso they were all that much easier to make into radical, intoleran, xenophobic and ultimately violently oppressive. When you target a specific set of people from that demographic then you will automatically find the lesser intellectual capacity due to having little to no education in any given field, leave alone Islam.

1 hour ago, Silas said:

The subtext here was the analogy that there might be good Nazis, but they are still Nazis, and they will always be against us

but that assumes that all Muslims, or specifically Sunni Muslims, are all anti-West. That most certainly is not the case.

1 hour ago, Silas said:

They even pointed to the massacres of Shia by Sunni radicals in India over the last few decades as an example of the violent ones "taking over".

Well, they have a point. Radicalized and weaponized Sunni do that sort of thing.

1 hour ago, Silas said:

These westerners firmly believe that if they were to become a minority in their own nation, and if the Sunni Muslims were to take over, a genocide would result, like what happened to the Armenians.

I don't know about a genocide but there would definitely be rampant discrimination and a lot of the rights and freedoms that the West considers normal would go away. Forget about gender equality and freedom of the Press. However, losing the Right to Bear Arms might not be that bad. 

1 hour ago, Silas said:

Are we really doomed to see the rise of an ugly, sectarian branch of Islam that begins to take over nations and then launches new holocausts? 

If the Wahabbi mentality isn't contained or even eliminated then the answer is yes. You're dealing with a group of people that only think in zero sum absolutism. No different than Zionists or Evangelicals. ANy of those groups coming to power is a recipe for disaster for anyone that isn't a part of their group.

1 hour ago, Silas said:

I went over to the Sunni forums to discuss this directly with them, but I was indirectly called a western imperialist animal --that wasn't encouraging. many over there were repeating ISIS talking points.

Ummm...going over to a Sunni forum would just enforce everything the Westerners were talking about. Salafi/Wahabbis dominate those forums for the exact purpose of spreading their beliefs, lies and misinformation, while enforcing their will on other Sunni with the hopes that eventually they will break them and have them join their ranks.

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Hi as I know all Sunni schools in western countries & recently between Uighur & Pakistan as Sunnis in east hijacked by Wahabists by support of vast petrodollar & moderate Sunnis are in brink of extinction in eastern & western countries even in Arab countries  that because of increasing number of young generations between Sunnis Muslims very soon the Wahhabism will be dominant group between new Sunni generations that principles of their teaching are hating the non Muslims in their new countries that it’s unavoidable that in future the Sunnis & Shias will stand in front of toghether as Wahabi-Shia war in every country that greatest of it will happen as predicted about reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) that lesser than one year before his reappearance all Wahabist from all around the world will gather again in a desert between Jordan & Syria & they will start to move toward Iran for another war like as Iran-Iraq war hat some  Sunnis from European countries attended in Saddam (la) army for supporting him in war with Iran but they will face final defeat after they conquered Iraq by coalition of Shias from Iran and  Afghanistan and other Shias in East of Iran  & Yemen InshaAllah .

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There is no question whabbi/salafism has poisoned Sunni Islam - but they too are suffering the consequences - it is not possible to practice such a fraudulent and oppressive "religion" for too long - so one of two things may take place , either the wahabbi/salafi will rediscover their roots and become Sunni again - or they will begin to abandon Islam in the sense they will become more and more secular. However, a fake religion such as wahabbi/salafism cannot last for long. The obvious results of this has become apparent in Pakistan that is suffering from serious maladies. I would suggest no matter the petro $$$s this kind of supremacist "religion" won't last for long. I would also suggest when talking about white supremacists -  also bring up this nefarious ideology of wahabbi supremacists that are openly supported by by the "west" through their alliance with the Saudi family - who are the same as their white supremacist kin - only difference being that one is based on skin color, the other on ideology - both are najis in the literal sense of that word. 

Edited by skylight2

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4 hours ago, Eliyahu said:

Putting all the blame of wahabis/salafis seems to be trying to find a boogeyman to escape that fact many of these problematic beliefs are clearly supported by Islamic primary sources along with the interpretation of classical Muslim scholars. 

From my readings and experience, these problematic passages are found in the Hadiths, not the Qur'an. 

Let us not forget that there are even more violent passages in the Torah -considerably more violent.

The issue with the Salafists also seems to be pronouncements made by their politically-motivated clerics, not insights made by their theologians.

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5 hours ago, Eliyahu said:

Putting all the blame of wahabis/salafis seems to be trying to find a boogeyman to escape that fact many of these problematic beliefs are clearly supported by Islamic primary sources along with the interpretation of classical Muslim scholars. 

Please find me a religious text that does not have violence.

If you're going to play the same Anti-Islamic trope of saying that the Qur'an states that Muslims should hate Christians and Jews then I would ask that you please provide a reference to the verse(s) and we will speak on the context of that passage(s).

I would also ask you to expand on your statement of "beliefs are clearly supported by Islamic primary sources along with the interpretation of classical Muslim scholars". I would ask you to quote an example.

Also, you are aware that this is a Shi'a forum and not a Sunni one? Our Qur'an is the same, but our Hadith collections and Scholars are different.

 

Edited by Akbar673

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" Are we really doomed to see the rise of an ugly, sectarian branch of Islam that begins to take over nations and then launches new holocausts? "

Sounds like what's going on in Iraq and Syria right now. Thankfully most of the world isn't interested in putting up with the nonsense, and major powers are dissecting isis and putting a lid on it.

I think there is a problem though, in that technologically advanced weapons can destroy buildings, but they can't so easily destroy an ideology.

 

 

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