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In the Name of God بسم الله
Warilla

Qur'an Vs personal morals

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There is a great thread about offensive jihad. But it raised a bigger question do we let the Qur'an speak. Or do we try to retrofit our own beliefs to it.

Eg

I grew up in western Europe. I'm a product of my environment.

Topics such as slavery, striking wives, khizr killing children will never sit well with me but I accept my limitations and acknowledge Allah knows best.

My question are there things in Islam that just don't sit well with you, but you nevertheless accept ?

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

There is a great thread about offensive jihad. But it raised a bigger question do we let the Qur'an speak. Or do we try to retrofit our own beliefs to it.

Eg

I grew up in western Europe. I'm a product of my environment.

Topics such as slavery, striking wives, khizr killing children will never sit well with me but I accept my limitations and acknowledge Allah knows best.

My question are there things in Islam that just don't sit well with you, but you nevertheless accept ?

Everything in Islam sit well with me.

When you understand and are able to act from right action, morality is no longer necessary. It’s instantly obsolete and discarded. Right action has nothing to do with right or wrong, good or evil, naughty or nice. It is without altruism or compassion. Morality is the set of rules and regulations that you use to navigate through life when you’re still trying to steer your ship rather than let it follow the flow.

 

Edited by Shams of tabriz

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1 hour ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Everything in Islam sit well with me.

 

 

That's great, inshallah I reach the same levels. Do dua for me 

Edited by Warilla

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Current speaking Qur'an is Imam Mahdi (aj) like as Imam of each era that was speaking Qur'an but he is in occultation all of the above like as striking wives misrepresented by Sunni scholars & khidr (عليه السلام) kill a pubert child that knew good from wrong not a small child that mistranslated or understand ,if something in Islam doesn’t sit well with us it’s because of wrong doings of its followers not Islam & Qur'an .

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Current speaking Qur'an is Imam Mahdi (aj) like as Imam of each era that was speaking Qur'an but he is in occultation all of the above like as striking wives misrepresented by Sunni scholars & khidr (عليه السلام) kill a pubert child that knew good from wrong not a small child that mistranslated or understand ,if something in Islam doesn’t sit well with us it’s because of wrong doings of its followers not Islam & Qur'an .

The verses seem clear. Do you know any hadith to support these views or specific tafsirs or translation I can reffer to.

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Whenever there are threads on ShiaChat talking about not being able to pray anymore, questioning what is in the Qur'an, not enforcing our Islamic duties like I.e. hijab, khumus, bashing marja3iya or mut3, I have come to an understanding that people do not have a grasp on usool al deen in the first place, so they target or it is easier for them to bring up topics about fooro3 al deen or branches of religion.

Notice, most topics that are brought up are from foor3 al deen, in this case jihad.

In this case maybe the brother does not have the concept of Justice of God understood.

As you are raising children, do you find yourselves teaching your children more about usool, fooro3 or both?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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The Qur'an permits hitting wives under one context—that she is rebelliously, and shameless adulterous and flaunts it in front of her husband. This doesn’t give him the right to hit his wife and be abusive since the whole surah is about exceptional cases (insect, wives commiting adultery, etc.)

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5 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

The Qur'an permits hitting wives under one context—that she is rebelliously, and shameless adulterous and flaunts it in front of her husband. This doesn’t give him the right to hit his wife and be abusive since the whole surah is about exceptional cases (insect, wives commiting adultery, etc.)

I've heard that it is a symbolic "beating" using a miswak / toothpick which is basically telling your wife that the marriage is about to end... as a last resort.

Bigots love quoting these specific verses as "that is all Islam is" especially where I'm from. Never see these people quoting Surah Mujadila...

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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

 

I've heard that it is a symbolic "beating" using a miswak / toothpick which is basically telling your wife that the marriage is about to end... as a last resort.

Bigots love quoting these specific verses as "that is all Islam is" especially where I'm from. Never see these people quoting Surah Mujadila...

The likening it to the use of striking with a Miswak is from Sunni Hadith; are there Twelver Hadith which give the same/similar Tafsir?

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

The likening it to the use of striking with a Miswak is from Sunni Hadith; are there Twelver Hadith which give the same/similar Tafsir?

Salaam, hope this helps:

Quote

“And forsake them in the bed”(4:34), Imam al-Baqir [ ﻉ ] said: He should turn his back to her, “And Beat them” (4:34), Imam al-Baqir [ ﻉ ]: Hitting her with a miswaak. [Tafsir Majma’ al-Bayan, Volume 3, Page 80]

 

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Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great. (4:34)

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57 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great. (4:34)

Which translation is this? Surely, wadhribuhunna doesn't mean "go to bed with them".

Edited by SirajDin

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54 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great. (4:34)

And where does the word وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ fit into this translation?

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19 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Right action has nothing to do with right or wrong, good or evil, naughty or nice. It is without altruism or compassion

I disagree with you. Allah only instructs us to do that which has an intrinsic value. The concept of good and evil do exist, and we've been designed to know the difference to some extent.  

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14 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

The Qur'an permits hitting wives under one context—that she is rebelliously, and shameless adulterous and flaunts it in front of her husband. This doesn’t give him the right to hit his wife and be abusive since the whole surah is about exceptional cases (insect, wives commiting adultery, etc.)

I agree but my point is due to my upbringing in the west and society drilling into you it's not acceptable in any circumstance. I will never be at complete ease with the rule but that's the whole point how many of us can overlook our own bias and follow Islam and how many of us try to find excuses and change Islam to suite our society.

Edited by Warilla

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2 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I disagree with you. Allah only instructs us to do that which has an intrinsic value. The concept of good and evil do exist, and we've been designed to know the difference to some extent.  

Well this is a fundamental difference in sects. The basic stances about Allah's justice

1) Allah is all wise and just therefore anything he decrees is just regardless of our own view/interpretation.

2) Allah is all wise and just there fore can not decree anything that is unjust by the standards he has set which we understand.

The Interaction between Ph. Musa and khizr can be used to argue both sides.

I have fall more into the first view. So if anything has evidence I try to put my own views/social programming/prejudice to one side.

Edited by Warilla

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Also this whole miswak business. I believe the hadith is seen a weak. But even so a man can still lay the smack down with a miswak. They are pretty hard just look at *Jacky Chan's use of a pen :grin:

*May have been a different Kung Fu star

Edited by Warilla

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2 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Ahmed Ali

Worth checking out the Literal translation via the same link.

What I find unpleasant in such translations is the anti-traditional spirit; the idea that all commentators/mufassirun, throughout fourteen centuries (many of whom had devoted their whole lives to the study of the subtleties of the Arabic language) simply got it wrong; and we have now discovered that the true meaning of اضربوهنّ is not to 'hit them' but 'to go to bed with them'.  

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18 hours ago, Ejaz said:

 

I've heard that it is a symbolic "beating" using a miswak / toothpick which is basically telling your wife that the marriage is about to end... as a last resort.

Bigots love quoting these specific verses as "that is all Islam is" especially where I'm from. Never see these people quoting Surah Mujadila...

Yes, “hitting” means to hit with something soft—not your own hands. 

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