Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Offensive Jihad Under Infallible Imam Only?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

It is one of the well known critiques levied against us that it essentially condones rape of female captives, even if already married.

I know we do not accept Sunni sources, but Ibn Kathir's Tafsir of this has a narration in the footnote, that during one expidition, some Muslims felt uncomfortable about sleeping with captives who had husbands already, the narration claims this verse was revealed in response to it.

I understand that I just asked if sexual relations between the Muslims and his captive are supposed to be consented or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I understand that I just asked if sexual relations between the Muslims and his captive are supposed to be consented or not.

Well like you said, it is not very PC. But I kind of doubt it would be needed seeing as they would essentially belong to another. Again not PC but even marital rape is not really seen as a thing in Islamic law. I know in United Kingdom case law it was only established in 1991.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

So please enlighten us on your convenient Quranist take on 4:24

 

The Qur'an deals with topics and their effects, there is absolutely no principle that merely regulating a fact of society equals endorsement of the practice. When the Qur'an does give an order relating to captured persons it stipulates two options, one is to free them or two ransom them as a condition of release.

Regulating alchohol doesn't mean the Qur'an implicitly allows it for example. It is a fact of society and is dealt with accordingly.

There are ZERO verses that say you can enslave a woman. There are ZERO verses that say you can initiate slavery in general. 

The Qur'an allows self defense as every single nation on Earth and consequences of war are on the aggressor. 

If a captured aggressor consents to marry their captor , what is the problem? 

the problem is when you approach the Quranic commands with an animalistic mind and believe it calls for pillaging and raping.

women and men have sex as a matter of nature, it doesn't mean one can go around raping anyone they meet. Even non Islamic primitive societies regulate the act of sex.

 

 

Edited by Fink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fink said:

The Qur'an deals with topics and their effects, there is absolutely no principle that merely regulating a fact of society equals endorsement of the practice. When the Qur'an does give an order relating to captured persons it stipulates two options, one is to free them or two ransom them as a condition of release.

Regulating alchohol doesn't mean the Qur'an implicitly allows it for example. It is a fact of society and is dealt with accordingly.

There are ZERO verses that say you can enslave a woman. There are ZERO verses that say you can initiate slavery in general. 

The Qur'an allows self defense as every single nation on Earth and consequences of war are on the aggressor. 

If a captured aggressor consents to marry their captor , what is the problem? 

the problem is when you approach the Quranic commands with an animalistic mind and believe it calls for pillaging and raping.

 

 

tumblr_inline_o1ob4rOpZA1qlgi1f_540.gif

So much sugarcoating.

Why did some of our Imams (عليه السلام) after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have slaves if according to you, they are ordered to free them or ransom them? How did they even get them?

Also a captured person "consenting" to marry their captor can be argued to be Stockholm syndrome, you really think they have much of a choice? Or simply choosing a better option as opposed to being a slave.

Like I said, slavery as with offensive jihad is not permitted in the time of Ghayba.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

tumblr_inline_o1ob4rOpZA1qlgi1f_540.gif

So much sugarcoating.

Why did some of our Imams (عليه السلام) after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have slaves if according to you, they are ordered to free them or ransom them? How did they even get them?

Also a captured person "consenting" to marry their captor can be argued to be Stockholm syndrome, you really think they have much of a choice? Or simply choosing a better option as opposed to being a slave.

Like I said, slavery as with offensive jihad is not permitted in the time of Ghayba.

You're mixing general slavery with captured persons in war. I've already discussed both types many times and I keep having to repeat myself. They are two different things.

Slavery was a system in place before Islam and was regulated after Islam. You're asking why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had slaves,  I already answered that when I explained why slavery was not abolished explicitly, and gave you an example of what would happen to them in referencing African Americans who were freed on paper.

 The Prophet like everyone else dealt with this social system in place.

I don't care much about this thing called ghayba as I have no such concept in my religion. There is also no such thing as offensive Jihad. They made that up like they invented many other things in Islam.

 

Edited by Fink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Well like you said, it is not very PC. But I kind of doubt it would be needed seeing as they would essentially belong to another. Again not PC but even marital rape is not really seen as a thing in Islamic law. I know in United Kingdom case law it was only established in 1991.

Well maybe if this is not politically correct you could explain more about that in mp ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Fink said:

You're mixing general slavery with captured persons in war.

No you rhetorically asked what the problem was if "captured aggressors" consenting to marrying their captors in your post about slavery. I'm just addressing what you said.

11 minutes ago, Fink said:

 You're asking why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had slaves, 

Well I asked specifically why the Imams had them after the time of the Prophet. Furthermore, I am not arguing Islam encourages slavery, you seem to think I am. My point is that whether you want to ignore it or not, it is allowed. Just as it is allowed to be with a slave who is married, (as married women are prohibited to us).

As such it is hypocritical to call offensive jihad a "sick idea", when you as a Quranist, are permitted to have a slave

11 minutes ago, Fink said:

I don't care much about this thing called ghayba as I have no such concept in my religion.

 

.Well I believe in the Ghayb as per the 2nd chapter, 2nd verse.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Point is

I strongly believe Islam sought to end slavery. The God of the Qur'an clearly dislikes the practice. 

Human inequities won't end just because a blanket ban came from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). So things are dealt with accordingly within capacity of people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fink said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says be kind to women, I don't think rape falls under that category. You sick men.

A bit off topic but what about

(4:34:29)
wa-iḍ'ribūhunna
and [finally] strike them.

This doesn't seem to "kind"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At which point does a captive become a slave? I suppose that's when laws pertaining to slavery are imposed.

I remember Nakshawani reading about the topic "Sex Slaves" a couple years back, which spawned quite the debate on Shiachat. One theme of the thread (and actually put forth by a student of Hawza) is the lens through which we see slavery in the 21st century, opposed to the historic definition and practise of slavery. There is some discussion on consent, a term/concept that didn't apparently exist at the time.  

There are rulings from al-Khoie that one doesn't even have to do nikah prior to sexual intercourse with a slave. Then there's concepts such as Tahleel, whereby a master can allow another exclusive use of his slave for sex. :ko:

Here's the thread: 

I personally limit myself from discussing such a distressing topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2019 at 11:14 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Everybody agrees with your idea but your way is same as Bahais at their start , I said what I must say & warned you to not become astray that is a common syndrome for people like you that after a while by over praying & make their conclusion of their readings from. Qur'an & hadiths fall in wrong rail of denying Marjas then call themselves as close ones to Imam Mahdi (aj) then maybe a special deputyof him  that hide themselves behind good words but theiractions lead them towrong path we have many persons in Iran like you that ollowed this way that at last instead of helping Imam become mentally ill or fraud persons that created cults  fortunately in Iran we throw them in prison so they can’t make major damage to belief of people & I won’t say any word about you anymore :censored:

I can say the same or worse about people like you for instance that they end up mushriqs and end up burning in hell for all eternity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we can add this verse to the ones tending towards the true limitation of true religion ..

 

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." Anfal 61

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I think we can add this verse to the ones tending towards the true limitation of true religion ..

 

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." Anfal 61

 

Prepare against them whatever you can of [military] power and war-horses, awing thereby the enemy of Allah, and your enemy, and others besides them, whom you do not know, but Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in the way of Allah will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. (60) Anfal 60

after providing military power & enough protection we can accept peace treaty of them  not in condition that we are in weak state or they can harm us in future that "Jihad ibtada2i .. initiatory jihad" is first requirement for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Prepare against them whatever you can of [military] power and war-horses, awing thereby the enemy of Allah, and your enemy, and others besides them, whom you do not know, but Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in the way of Allah will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. (60) Anfal 60

after providing military power & enough protection we can accept peace treaty of them  not in condition that we are in weak state or they can harm us in future that "Jihad ibtada2i .. initiatory jihad" is first requirement for this.

No we are talking about attacking peaceful people who did not attack us first. Not preparing. There is obviously a difference. Initiatory jihad is an innovation that was never mentioned by Allah explicitly nor by the Prophet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2019 at 1:26 PM, Fink said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says be kind to women, I don't think rape falls under that category. You sick men.

Makes you feel sorry for the wives of some members here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The tribes of Bani Salim raised a huge army to launch a surprise attack on Madina in order to kill the believers and arrest the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet, after receiving the information, sent one of his companions along with a party of Muslim warriors to prevent the planned attack"

Perhaps this is the example with us for offensive Jihad!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

"The tribes of Bani Salim raised a huge army to launch a surprise attack on Madina in order to kill the believers and arrest the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet, after receiving the information, sent one of his companions along with a party of Muslim warriors to prevent the planned attack"

Perhaps this is the example with us for offensive Jihad!

No in this case it was defensive because the enemy was already moving towards the Prophet it seems. Thank God we have Qur'an to be the benchmark for things that can even explain possible reasons for attacking in incomplete stories as the above, if they true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My argument remains that it can only occur under the Imam (aj).

"Significantly, in contrast to Sunni jurists who aspired to reconstitute Muslim power, most mujtahids had viewed expansionist or offensive jihad as illegitimate in the absence of the Hidden Imam and continue to do so. In contrast, most mujtahids align with Sunni jurists in the belief that defensive jihad against foreign aggression on the umma is obligatory."

"Broadly speaking, the concept of jihad for both Shi’a and Sunnisis multivalent. A key theoretical difference between the two concepts lies in the Shi’a belief that an offensive jihad cannot be carried out during the occultation of the Hidden Imam, though defensive jihad to aid oppressed people beyond the borders of the concerned Muslim society can occur if it is in accordance with a legal ruling by a mujtahid. Significantly, the ideology of Salafi-jihadism similarly defines the concept of jihad as in defense of Islam, but the Shi’a concept of jihad does not allow for the Salafi-Jihadi goal of reconstituting Muslim political power, even in the case of oppression."

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/fikraforum/view/contextualizing-jihad-and-takfir-in-the-Shia-conceptual-framework

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Thank God we have Qur'an to be the benchmark for things that can even explain possible reasons for attacking in incomplete stories as the above, if they true.

Actually it is mentioned in the tafseer of chapter Al-Adiyaat

[Shakir 100:3] Then those that make raids at morn,
 

9 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

No in this case it was defensive because the enemy was already moving towards the Prophet

Enemy is not moving but they do planned to launch surprise attack and raised army for that. The response from Muslims was a sort of preemptive strike. I think it can come under offense because you have questioned who will attack first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

Actually it is mentioned in the tafseer of chapter Al-Adiyaat

[Shakir 100:3] Then those that make raids at morn,
 

Enemy is not moving but they do planned to launch surprise attack and raised army for that. The response from Muslims was a sort of preemptive strike. I think it can come under offense because you have questioned who will attack first.

You don’t know the details of this story, but we have Qur'an and the orders of Prophet to guide us, we trust this campaign was done under the rules and limitations of Qur'an and what the Prophet preached concerning this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

You don’t know the details of this story, but we have Qur'an and the orders of Prophet to guide us, we trust this campaign was done under the rules and limitations of Qur'an and what the Prophet preached concerning this.

That's the title of this thread "Offensive Jijad under infallible Imam only". Qur'an & Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) both are infallible and the Imams from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Can anybody get me the words "offensive jihad" from anywhere in Qur'an or hadith? Or is it an invented concept and terminology as I've been saying?

There is no term of defensive or offensive. It just jihad. But we trying to see if jihad can be proactive as well as reactive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amir al-Mu’minin `Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) has said:

أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقٌاتِلَ النٌّاسَ حَتَّـى يَقُولُوا لاٌ إِلٌهَ إِلاٌّ اللٌّهَ فَإِذٌا قٌالُوهٌا فَقَدْ حَرُمَ عَلَيَّ دِمٌاؤُهُمْ وَ أَمْوٌالُهُمْ

“I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no creature or entity worthy of worship except for Allah, and when they say this then at that time, their blood and property are sacrosanct.”

Bihar al-Anwar, Volume 68, Page 262.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But will Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام). do offensive jihad?

I have heard of narrations stating that he will not be as merciful as Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ejaz said:

But will Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام). do offensive jihad?

I have heard of narrations stating that he will not be as merciful as Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Salam he will follow exactly policy of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in war but in first 8 months after his reappearance he restlessly will fight with his enemies until all of them accept him or will be  killed & during this 8 months won't  be a peace 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...