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Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Offensive Jihad Under Infallible Imam Only?

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7 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Honestly so have I. He is just bent on arguing for the sake of it without providing knowledge from the ulema, whom he knows better than.

Qur'an and hadiths isn't enough for you. You want ulema even if they contradict Qur'an and ahadeeth

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5 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

War is killing. Qital in Arabic. I am not talking of other forms of jihad, such as jihad al nafs, jihad of the self against bad habits for instance. 

When Ibrahim (عليه السلام) destroyed his fathers statues was that war too according to you? 

 

And don’t sugar coat yourself or escape from your argument, that you expect an Imam who can kill people , take lives, kick people from their homes, .. who live at peace with him. Init?! 

War is Harb actually. Qital is killing. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot.

Secondly the Prophet sent fighters to destroy an idol - what does that tell you? The mushrikeen may resist attempts to destroy their idol, which means it would be done by violent means.

If you cannot see this was by no means defensive, I can't help you any further.

I will stick to what our ulema say, you follow your independent limited understanding of "Qur'an and Sunnah" 

I hear enough of that from Salafis.

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4 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Qur'an and hadiths isn't enough for you. You want ulema even if they contradict Qur'an and ahadeeth

EXACTLY. Because I am a layperson. Not a scholar. I follow the Imami madhab.

I don't interpret the Qur'an and Sunnah by myself and hope for the best.

SubhanAllah.

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Just now, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

War is Harb actually. Qital is killing. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot.

Where? In the Qur'an? I don’t think sooooo :grin:

Did the Prophet attack and kill statues? War qital is between humans. My God ...

Your ulema .. fine by me. I stick to Allah and the Prophet in sha Allah, and those who are close to Qur'an and hadiths regardless of others 

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1 minute ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

EXACTLY. Because I am a layperson. Not a scholar. I follow the Imami madhab.

I don't interpret the Qur'an and Sunnah by myself and hope for the best.

SubhanAllah.

You can read no? Then start reading Qur'an. Start reading hadiths. And spend less time on ShiaChat. Better do your own interpretation instead of depending on others who could be wrong. It's a risky business to put random people between you and God. 

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5 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Better do your own interpretation instead of depending on others who could be wrong. It's a risky business to put random people between you and God. 

Yeah so I end up believing the Prophet and Imams are not infallible as you do.

You wouldn't even know the rules of prayer, fasting etc if not for maraji or scholars.

You do your Salafi approach of "Qur'an and Sunnah" if it keeps you happy.

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5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Yeah so I end up believing the Prophet and Imams are not infallible as you do.

You wouldn't even know the rules of prayer, fasting etc if not for maraji or scholars.

You do your Salafi approach of "Qur'an and Sunnah" if it keeps you happy.

All rules of prayer, fasting, etc. are outlined in detail inside the Qur'an and ahadeeth. Scholars aren't supposed to invent anything that isn't there. Qur'an and sunnah is the Islamic approach. How can you say the way of Allah and the Prophet is wrong? And I believe in wilaya of AHL bayt, so I hardly can be a salafi 

Whatever you end up believing after consulting Allah in the Qur'an, and reading narrations of the Prophet -  will be right. 

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44 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I think I lose my time by trying to argue with you honnestly. You talk by passion not by methodology. 

Passion? I answer each argument with Qur'an and way of Prophet. Who cares about passion, when my passion is for Allah? And His Book? And His Prophet? And people scolding me for that, and for not having passion for scholars who contradict Qur'an. Did I offend anybody idols?

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36 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Passion? I answer each argument with Qur'an and way of Prophet. Who cares about passion, when my passion is for Allah? And His Book? And His Prophet? And people scolding me for that, and for not having passion for scholars who contradict Qur'an. Did I offend anybody idols?

No comment 

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53 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Scholars aren't supposed to invent anything that isn't there. Qur'an and sunnah is the Islamic approach. How can you say the way of Allah and the Prophet is wrong? And I believe in wilaya of AHL bayt, so I hardly can be a salafi 

They didn’t invent anything from themselves but your problem is problem oeoplethat think with reading some verses & hadiths based his limited understanding of these two. they know everything better than a well known great scholar that devoted whole of his life in this way & knows himself upper than him.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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3 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

No comment 

Technically that is a comment. In this day and age alhamdulilah it is possible to access Qur'an and ahadeeth ourselves more easily than ever. The role of scholars before was to read the hardcover copies and study them without search engines, but nowadays we can be our own scholars. At the same time scholars can more easily than ever find and spread the truth via Qur'an and hadiths, but you find them ranting for hours and vaguely mentioning Qur'an at all and sometimes rarely a hadith. Most talk is their opinions, and the rope of Allah is the Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt. Not!!! Scholars independent minds. And you take their words for it! 

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

They didn’t invent anything from themselves but your problem is problem oeoplethat think with reading some verses & hadiths they know everything better than a well known great scholar that devoted whole of his life in this way & knows himself upper than him.

Saying well known scholar doesn't mean anything. They can be wrong and go to hell. Especially in the end times. Friends of the Prophet went astray, so you want to tell me famous scholars of today can't? Even if their intentions are good, which most of them probably aren't, they can still be wrong. We all have access go Allah more directly via Qur'an. We will be asked about this, and people will be punished for bypassing Qur'an with their own minds, and following what others tell them is right. What excuse done have not to read or study Qur'an on our own. What excuse donwe have for not checking our beliefs with Qur'an? We should be talking scientific Qur'an. You can be sure that a lot, if not most of what "Islam" appears to be is not Islam at all. 1200 years without a guide! 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Technically that is a comment. In this day and age alhamdulilah it is possible to access Qur'an and ahadeeth ourselves more easily than ever. The role of scholars before was to read the hardcover copies and study them without search engines, but nowadays we can be our own scholars. At the same time scholars can more easily than ever find and spread the truth via Qur'an and hadiths, but you find them ranting for hours and vaguely mentioning Qur'an at all and sometimes rarely a hadith. Most talk is their opinions, and the rope of Allah is the Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt. Not!!! Scholars independent minds. And you take their words for it! 

In this day we have now Google scholars like you instead of ayatollah who gave their life in studying holy books. Yeah à very nice day indeed. 

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Just now, Mohammadi_follower said:

In this day we have now Google scholars like you instead of ayatollah who gave their life in studying holy books. Yeah à very nice day indeed. 

Your classification of "Google scholar", or "ayatullah" is totally useless. Did I not quote the same Qur'an they study in hawza. Didn't I quote Ayat!! From Allah?????? Aya being a verse. Aya being a sign. You guys get proven things in the Qur'an and instead of respecting it at least, and keeping a respectful tone in the conversation, you end up just dismissing with no reason whatsoever except some mysterious "scholars", "alims", "priests", "knowledgeable ones", "signs of God" .. blabla

They are human! Just like me! If they don’t have what it takes they should stop lecturing. It takes Qur'an and ahadeeth in depth and multiple steps in context 

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7 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Saying well known scholar doesn't mean anything. They can be wrong and go to hell. Especially in the end times. Friends of the Prophet went astray, so you want to tell me famous scholars of today can't? Even if their intentions are good, which most of them probably aren't, they can still be wrong. We all have access go Allah more directly via Qur'an. We will be asked about this, and people will be punished for bypassing Qur'an with their own minds, and following what others tell them is right. What excuse done have not to read or study Qur'an on our own. What excuse donwe have for not checking our beliefs with Qur'an? We should be talking scientific Qur'an. You can be sure that a lot, if not most of what "Islam" appears to be is not Islam at all. 1200 years without a guide! 

Basic concepts that some find difficult to grasp. Keep preaching brother.

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The reason why the religion of Allah will be victorious in sha Allah, is because all the non Muslim can pick up the Qur'an themselves and they will see, unlike the people who follow scholars blindly. They will see in sha Allah that Islam is a fair and just and peace loving religion. Peace in Arabic means Salam. One of Allah's beautiful Names is al-Salam.!!!!!!!!!

We worship "the-Peace". Even the word "Islam" is linked to the word salam, or peace. 

Additionally history is clear. "His" as in Prophet Mohammed "story".

Everyone knows.- or will know- that when the meccan didn't fight him he did not kill a single person upon the conquest of his own home town after having been given multiple reasons to wage war against them, including them attacking and killing his people for believing in him. 

This is why Islam will conquer. This is why it will win. The Qur'an is amazing, and for all mankind, not just the chosen few "scholars",

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People will convert in droves as promised by God in surat el nasr because they will realize how Islam is good and true. Especially when  the Imam comes they will see that living under true Islamic rule is almost like paradise on Earth. It is peaceful and no anxiety and safe. They will realize that the purpose of life is to do good and be God conscious. They will see the practicality of it. People convert through they hearts,through being convinced and proven in their minds. The Hujja will convince them. Not the sword. The sword is simply for self defence and for worshiping Allah via the smaller jihad, the physical jihad (within very strict and selfless guidelines and limitations). The emphasis will be on internal jihad more, and the inner sword against ones own low desires. 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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26 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

What excuse done have not to read or study Qur'an on our own. What excuse donwe have for not checking our beliefs with Qur'an? We should be talking scientific Qur'an. You can be sure that a lot, if not most of what "Islam" appears to be is not Islam at all. 1200 years without a guide! 

At last famous scholars have lesser fault ratio than us your way is similar to way of bobism & Bahaism founders that at first they announced disassociation from Marjas then they claimed that they have special connection to Imam Mahdi (aj)  then called themselves as Mahdi then Prophets and messengers & at the end godly figures that created new religion and denied Prophet Muhammad (pbu) as seal of Prophets and bypassed Holy Qur'an , if you trust in Imam Mahdi (aj) he ordered that we follow Marjas as narrators of Hadiths that he will fix their errors ,it’s a famous story that sheikh movie (رضي الله عنه) as Marja made a mistake that ordered to bury a dead Muslim woman with baby in her womb because tearing apart body of Muslims not allowed by rulings but later  Imam Mahdi(aj) goes to funeral that was disguising himself as his agent & said that they bring child out of womb of woman before burying so Sheikh movie due his mistake stopped from saying rulings to people  but Imam Mahdi (aj) comes to him & orderd him to say rulling based on teachings & said if you make a mistake again I will fix it for you that he is fixing errors of Marjas till now until reappearance so we must trust Marjas because if they make any mistake, Imam Mahdi (aj) will fix their error .

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

famous scholars have lesser fault ratio than us

To me that is a generalisation that to me is worship / idolizing scholars. How can we make such a sweeping statement? This is totally against my mind. I respect several scholars from all walks, but God knows who is better in front of Him. 

I have nothing to do with baha'I and I read their entire book which to me is like a farse. You can commit adultry and get forgiven if you give their centres money :grin:

I respect the scholar in your avatar picture for instance, because his action were good. Judge a tree by its fruits. But he can be wrong about issues in Islam. His opinion is not infallible, and the concept of Mahdi "fixing mistakes" of marjas sounds like jesus dying for our sins. Anything to not take responsibility. And now we have people calling themselves "marja", and people are naive and take everything they say as truth. And if you question it, people get personally offended, as if you offended their God. But when you come with Qur'an these marjas and Mahdi have no right to contradict. And any marja who does not order people to study Qur'an themselves is stupid. Or at least encourage people to "think". Thinking is a description for people who are going to paradise! Everybody must think, everybody must reflect. The first thing that God told our Prophet is "iqra". And he told this to the worlds at the same time. Allah tells us to read, and observe the ayat. The verses of the Qur'an are ayat too. We must abide by the book, otherwise we go to hell. What I don’t understand is people who study Islam, but don’t make it their priority to read Qur'an. The Prophet said that the comparison of the Qur'an vs any other book is like comparing Allah with the rest of the creations! The scholars can be wrong! They can be wrong about every little thing. We ,just ask God form guidance and use our minds ourselves. If we blindly follow other peoples mistakes, we will still be accounted for it. And what will be our excuse that we didnt consult Allah directly? Is it written I the Qur'an that we should skip reading and thinking about ayat Allah? And replace the word aya of Allah with humans, while ignoring the clear ayat of Allah in  the book?

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

replace the word aya of Allah with humans, while ignoring the clear ayat of Allah in  the book?

Everybody agrees with your idea but your way is same as Bahais at their start , I said what I must say & warned you to not become astray that is a common syndrome for people like you that after a while by over praying & make their conclusion of their readings from. Qur'an & hadiths fall in wrong rail of denying Marjas then call themselves as close ones to Imam Mahdi (aj) then maybe a special deputyof him  that hide themselves behind good words but theiractions lead them towrong path we have many persons in Iran like you that ollowed this way that at last instead of helping Imam become mentally ill or fraud persons that created cults  fortunately in Iran we throw them in prison so they can’t make major damage to belief of people & I won’t say any word about you anymore :censored:

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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3 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Like being against slavery innit.

The fact that you don't understand the Qurans position on slavery isn't the Qurans problem.

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50 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

More like the fact that you are selective in your moral outrage. Show me where it was abolished.

Let's completely disregard socio-economic situation of slaves and abolish slavery with the stroke of a pen. Many of which would likely end up dead, like African Americans who were freed on paper. Many stayed and lived with their masters because they were disadvantaged in every way.

Human inequities aren't solved overnight and the Qur'an's approach is to instill values and ultimately destroy evil through a bottom -up approach.

This is why Qurans focus is on freeing slaves rather than enslavement of new persons.

You still haven't answered my question- you claim Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered the Prophet to lead offensive Jihad - can you explain to us what battles Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) led that were initiating offensive Jihad? 

Edited by Fink

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7 hours ago, Fink said:

Let's completely disregard socio-economic situation of slaves and abolish slavery with the stroke of a pen.  

Let's regard our current "socio-economic" situation. At the end of the day, you say you are a Quranist, therefore you believe in slavery or concubinage. You can call offensive jihad a "sick idea", but slavery is permitted (and as with offensive jihad, would not be permitted without an Imam). 

 

This is why Qurans focus is on freeing slaves rather than enslavement of new persons.

That's all well and good but you can technically sleep with one from war booty who is already married to someone else, if you read the 4th chapter, again in the Book by which you label yourself.

You still haven't answered my question- you claim Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered the Prophet to lead offensive Jihad - can you explain to us what battles Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) led that were initiating offensive Jihad? 

I did not say there was a divine "order", I simply stated that it is only permissable under an Infallible, as per the jurisprudence. Though I did cite 9:123 from the Al-Islam.org site as being about jihad al ibdtidai.

Whilst I am not versed on every expidition, I did mention at least one in which the Prophet saw, dispatched Imam Ali (عليه السلام) with soldiers to destroy an idol, carry out a raid along with capturing people and weapons. Contrary to what the other chap was saying, war does not actually mean killing, an aggressive act or invasion is still an act of war. The fact that were fighters on a mission means they were prepared to fight and kill if faced with resistance. There probably are other military expiditions carried out in a non-defensive manner, but something to look into further. Anyway this is not some idea I just made up on my own interpretation, unlike someone else in the thread 

 

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Another military campaign was the destruction of the "Yemenite kaba", the Dhul Khalasa in 10AH, after the triumph of Islam. The Prophet saw sent Jarir ibn Abdullah to destroy it with fighters, they faced resistance and killed 100 men "of the Bahilah, its custodians, and many of the Khath'am" and another 200 men of the "Banu-Qubafah" tribes" before setting the structure on fire.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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16 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Another military campaign was the destruction of the "Yemenite kaba", the Dhul Khalasa in 10AH, after the triumph of Islam. The Prophet saw sent Jarir ibn Abdullah to destroy it with fighters, they faced resistance and killed 100 men "of the Bahilah, its custodians, and many of the Khath'am" and another 200 men of the "Banu-Qubafah" tribes" before setting the structure on fire.

Sorry but I don't take for evidence stories from a book that allow breastfeeding bearded men. Particularly this story which has many holes in it in light of the Qur'an giving clear orders about aggression.

Another example of worshipping hadith over Qur'an.

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11 minutes ago, Fink said:

Sorry but I don't take for evidence stories from a book that allow breastfeeding bearded men. Particularly this story which has many holes in it in light of the Qur'an giving clear orders about aggression.

Another example of worshipping hadith over Qur'an.

Fair enough. But you are ok with "taking stories from a book" that allows you to sleep with captives already married? 

Also you asked for military expiditions of the Prophet saw...your Umari "Qur'an is enough for us" approach will of course disregard the narrations, conveniently, whether Sunni or Shia sources. If you are talking about Islamic historic events, you are severely limiting discussion by only referring to a Book primarily of Guidance.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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50 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

That's all well and good but you can technically sleep with one from war booty who is already married to someone else, if you read the 4th chapter, again in the Book by which you label yourself.

You have a conflict with understanding these verses because your understanding is built on very strange beliefs like initiating offensive Jihad - like ISIS.

If you believe you can go around killing people and having sexual jihad that's your prerogative. 

Islam only allows justified violence, yes if someone attacks unjustified, wants to enslave my kids or wife , take my home - then they instantly lose some very basic rights. Like their right to live. What is more sacred than that??? 

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11 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Fair enough. But you are ok with "taking stories from a book" that allows you to sleep with captives already married? 

See above post 

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1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Though I did cite 9:123 from the Al-Islam.org site as being about jihad al ibdtidaI.

Salam wasn’t surah tawba revealed after the breaking of the treaty?

Would this conflict with your opinion:

Agha Mahdi Puya “When conflict becomes inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil and destroy its power base.”

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8 minutes ago, Fink said:

You have a conflict with understanding these verses because your understanding is built on very strange beliefs like initiating offensive Jihad - like ISIS.

I have shown on numerous occaisions in this very thread, Shia literature or from a Shia perspective the permissability of offensive jihad under an Infallible. The only conflict is your own interpretation against established jurisprudence by our scholars. If you want to compare it to ISIS that is your call.

If you believe you can go around killing people and having sexual jihad that's your prerogative. 

So please enlighten us on your convenient Quranist take on 4:24

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess."

 

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1 minute ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I have a question not politcally correct about this verse but do the intercourse with slaves here are supposed to be "consented" ?

It is one of the well known critiques levied against us that it essentially condones rape of female captives, even if already married.

I know we do not accept Sunni sources, but Ibn Kathir's Tafsir of this has a narration in the footnote, that during one expidition, some Muslims felt uncomfortable about sleeping with captives who had husbands already, the narration claims this verse was revealed in response to it.

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