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In the Name of God بسم الله
Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Offensive Jihad Under Infallible Imam Only?

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It's a difficult concept to wrestle with.

If you don't believe in infallibility you can always opt out by stating it's not a legal jihad that's been carried out.

If it comes from an inffalible it becomes obligatory which makes it harder to deal with.

But overall I believe there is enough evidence in Qur'an and sunna to hold a position that offensive jihad is allowed.

But with all things the devil is in the detail.

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@Fink you appear to have taken the moral position referring to it as a "sick idea". What then is your view on slavery, which we know is both in Qur'an and ahadith? It has never been abolished after all. You may be equally outraged towards slavery, but you do not have the choice of saying it is not in the Book by which you define yourself.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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4 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

@Fink you appear to have taken the moral position referring to it as a "sick idea". What then is your view on slavery, which we know is both in Qur'an and ahadith? It has never been abolished after all. You may be equally outraged towards slavery, but you do not have the choice of saying it is not in the Book by which you define yourself.

The response to it is predictable

"Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know."

The Arabic of enjoined or prescribed is also used for fasting

So it shows the weight of the verse

Edited by Warilla

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12 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

From the same article, it would appear so

 

 

What about some cases where for some reasons some kuffars could be good allies for Muslims against other ennemies of Islam ? Do that would not be better to not struggle against them ?

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7 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

What about some cases where for some reasons some kuffars could be good allies for Muslims against other ennemies of Islam ? Do that would not be better to not struggle against them ?

The thing about alliances, they are temporary and usually as you said thete is a shared enemy.

E.g US and USSR were part of the Allies against the Axis.

Once that shared enemy was defeated, the Cold War was ushered in.

Towards the end of it, US supported Afghan mujahideen against USSR, fast forward a few years, Afghanistan is US's longest war.

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1 minute ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The thing about alliances, they are temporary and usually as you said thete is a shared enemy.

E.g US and USSR were part of the Allies against the Axis.

Once that shared enemy was defeated, the Cold War was ushered in.

Towards the end of it, US supported Afghan mujahideen against USSR, fast forward a few years, Afghanistan is US's longest war.

After all even nowadays we observe such things. United States had some allies that it didnt hesitate to crush them after a short alliance. They also don’t hesitate to destroy countries which refuses to follow their ideology. In short such actions are inevitable in our world.

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- Verses that specifying fighting those who fight us: (defensive)

2:190

2:191

2:192

2:193

4:90

- Add to this no compulsion in religion 

2:256

- How to call to the path of God:

16:125

- Verses clearly/ directly stating that we may attack those we are at peace with: 

None

 

I think it is clear that spreading Islam by the sword is not allowed in Islam, under no circumstances, according to the Qur'an.

Fighting is a form of self defence and has nothing to do with spreading religion. Otherwise we would be ripe for a Shia baghdadi under a Shia ISIS. Some leader who orders his people to attack peaceful people is surely a hypocrite.

Amazing how people have different expectations of what the hidden Imam is like. No wonder the prophesies say that most Shia groups are going to hell, and that most of them will oppose them and get killed and defeated badly insha Allah.

All we can do is hope that we are envisioning the right one when he arises, otherwise we are in big trouble. 

 

 

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But I have to add in light of the title that I don't believe the Imam to be infallible, so I am probably having a different view on the most basic level already. Anyway let's wait and see .. hope God guides us all to be honest 

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

But I have to add in light of the title that I don't believe the Imam to be infallible, so I am probably having a different view on the most basic level already. Anyway let's wait and see .. hope God guides us all to be honest 

You are not a Twelver?

I guess that is why I can somewhat accept the idea if I know the leader is masoom and aadil.

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Just now, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

You are not a Twelver?

I guess that is why I can somewhat accept the idea if I know the leader is masoom and aadil.

Maasum means protected in Arabic and I discussed the infallibility issue so many times I hope God accepts it as enough. 

I expect the Imam to be superior but not perfect and faultless. Everybody has mistakes other than God, and that's how God perfectly created us with duality. So Prophets and Imams are humans just like us just higher ranking and more knowledgeable what concerns religion. So time will tell insha Allah.

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2 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

to be honest that you disregarded it being in fiqh makes sense now that I see you have some unorthodox beliefs, especially on infallability. 

This aqeedah seems closer with Asharites from the sound of it.

It's a conclusion I draw from Qur'an and ahadeeth that are more than clear about this. Already the Qur'an alone couldn't be clearer. But what is clear to one person, is invisible or opaque to another. That's life and part of the perfection of imperfection in Gods creation. 

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45 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

You are not a Twelver?

I believe in the 12 Imams and everything, just I don't believe in infallibility or the practice of making dua to them. Otherwise I am in line with most of today's mainstream 12er aqida. 

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Sorry for hogging this thread that interests me so much. I just want to add that according to prophecy there will be people fighting in the way of Allah and His Prophet before the Mahdi arrival. Ex. Khurasani, Yamani, Shuwayb bin salih, etc. And those people will in my opinion follow the same limitations of defence as per Qur'an. So they will have been attacked and taken a long war to length against a probably much bigger army of enemies. So when Mahdi comes on the scene there will already be a war or many battles on several fronts that will continue, while probably new fronts will be opened simultaneously because iblis will know that his end is coming, and he will be desperately try to encourage as many people as possible to defy God by taking up arms against Mahdi. In this way Mahdi will have moral high ground to pick his battles like an open buffet in most of the world. So what I want to say is that it will be a continuation of what is going on right now with the people fighting against oppressive satanic regimes, and resisting. Chances are that the stage is already being set, or is set already with all the players on the field, to attack all those who have already started attacking the oppressed. 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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6 hours ago, haideriam said:

see from 4 mins but also full video is most enlightening. Talks about jihad al ibtidaie and fuquha. 

 

 

Thank you for posting this video.

I don't like his voice, his attitude, his body language, and his face expressions.

But the part about jihad ibtidaie .. or initiatory jihad .. is clearly against Qur'an and hence Islam, Allah and the way of the Prophet.

He quotes that the unprovoked jihad against a peaceful people is done as a "da3watahim lil islame" (4:27) , or in their English translation "to call them to the religion" , and that it is a religious obligation if one has the means to do so.

We all know there is no compulsion in religion in the Qur'an, and 

Invite ( id3i ) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. nahl 125

What monster must one be to actually believe it's ok to start war and killing and destruction against a peacefully living people. Shame on them!

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We all know that Islam is a result of ones state of heart. How can anybody think that killing people would convince them to see the truth in the religion of the attacker, just because they have different opinions. You want to kill someone because of his opinion? You could sleep with that?

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9 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

We all know that Islam is a result of ones state of heart. How can anybody think that killing people would convince them to see the truth in the religion of the attacker, just because they have different opinions. You want to kill someone because of his opinion? You could sleep with that?

Please provide any Shia scholars who say there is only defensive jihad (exc jihad an nafs). 

With respect, I'm assuming you are no scholar, so you are not really in position to boldly declare offensive jihad is not in Islam

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35 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Please provide any Shia scholars who say there is only defensive jihad (exc jihad an nafs). 

With respect, I'm assuming you are no scholar, so you are not really in position to boldly declare offensive jihad is not in Islam

I am ina position to say my opinion. Especially when I got Qur'an and way of Propher to back me up. All those scholars you bring don't mention these two, so I am being more scholarly about it than them. Where is Qur'an ?

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