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In the Name of God بسم الله
Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Offensive Jihad Under Infallible Imam Only?

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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

@313 Seeker

This is quite clear and I agree with you. But there maybe grey areas such as premptative strikes. Or areas where we don't understand the wisdom of the Imam.

Eg. As in a group collaborating indirectly with attackers or preparing to attack. Khayber as a example comes to mind. 

Look dear brother all I am saying is that Allah makes it clear (to me anyway) that we may not fight people who don't fight us. Elsewhere in the Qur'an there is talk about stopping the fight when the enemies stop. So the Imam wont go against those rules in my opinion, otherwise he will be crossing the bounds of what is ethical. I expect the word being under attack to be more complex than we can imagine, but in principle those are the rules for everyone including the Prophet and Imam. to be honest I see it this way just through logic. I think it is a cruel thing to do, to kill people who are at peace with you. 

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3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Propaganda_of_the_Deed thanks for the links and videos.I couldn't find any proof for unprovoked offensive jihad in the long Islam.org article, and sayid Naqshawany fleetingly mentions the hadith without going into it. I'd like to see it in Arabic if possible,  but it is not do important because for me the limits are set in the Qur'an, and I don't believe hadith anyway that contradicts the sentiments of Qur'an and its direction.

5 types are mentioned in this article, the 4 previous are clearly defensive.

5. Jihad with unbelievers so that they may abandon their false beliefs and incline towards Islam. This type of jihad is referred to as al‑jihad al‑ 'ibtidai (a case when fighting is initiated by Muslims) and has its own particular conditions and involves elaborate discussion.

https://www.al-Islam.org/al-tawhid/vol1-n3/defence-and-jihad-Qur'an-ahmad-jannati/defence-and-jihad-Qur'an

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7 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Look dear brother all I am saying is that Allah makes it clear (to me anyway) that we may not fight people who don't fight us. Elsewhere in the Qur'an there is talk about stopping the fight when the enemies stop. So the Imam wont go against those rules in my opinion, otherwise he will be crossing the bounds of what is ethical. I expect the word being under attack to be more complex than we can imagine, but in principle those are the rules for everyone including the Prophet and Imam. to be honest I see it this way just through logic. I think it is a cruel thing to do, to kill people who are at peace with you. 

What about khizr killing a child and Prophet Musas negative reaction. (Example of logic being inefficient)

I believe there is a hadith, where Prophet orders a man to be killed but because he was in sajood Umar and abubakar refused. But Imam Ali carried out the orders without a second thought.

Edited by Warilla

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

He is good person & is on our side against extremism but interpretation of Qur'an without using teaching of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) makes  any person astray from right path ,his speeches about riba is good  but not sufficient & whole of stablishment of Ottoman Empire  from it’s  beginning base was unislamic & anti Shia that his fans support restablishing of this empire & want to make war between India & Pakistan & are supporting Turkey wars inside Syria & killing Kurds but we know from reliable Shia hadiths that Turks war inside Syria just will lead to defeating by Sufyani (la) & war of India & Pakistan is just in favor of Israel.

His fans are not him. Politically he is aligned with WF, Russia, and Bashar. God knows what is enough to be saved from the hell fire, but this guy has good intentions and he one of the best scholars in the world for me. The balance will hopefully be in his favour in judgment day. Insha Allah

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Just now, Warilla said:

What about khizr killing a child and Prophet Musas negative reaction. 

I believe there is a gadith

Good question. Khizr had premonition and was sent facts from the future, so in this way it cam be seen as defence. If Imam can do the same, then it would still be defensive like the terminator story that goes back and forth in time back to the future stuff :)

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7 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

5 types are mentioned in this article, the 4 previous are clearly defensive.

5. Jihad with unbelievers so that they may abandon their false beliefs and incline towards Islam. This type of jihad is referred to as al‑jihad al‑ 'ibtidai (a case when fighting is initiated by Muslims) and has its own particular conditions and involves elaborate discussion.

https://www.al-Islam.org/al-tawhid/vol1-n3/defence-and-jihad-Qur'an-ahmad-jannati/defence-and-jihad-Qur'an

This contradicts the qur'anic verse saying there is no compulsion in religion, as well as Allah guiding whom He wants, and even the Prophet not being able to do a thing about it, except warn and inform. So out of the window with that for me :)

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I remember hadiths from Imam Ali on the topic of him I think leaving prisoners alive or being merciful at war being something he did because he knew that eventually his "Shia" would fail him, and that they would lose the battle of the generation that only his grand grand grand grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandson would win. So he kept a lenient strategy towards those he defeated in order to save his family and true Shia from the inevitable defeat that was coming. I remember him saying that once the Mahdi arises the rules will be very different concerning prisoners and defeated enemies. That's if I remember correctly. 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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17 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

This contradicts the qur'anic verse saying there is no compulsion in religion, as well as Allah guiding whom He wants, and even the Prophet not being able to do a thing about it, except warn and inform. So out of the window with that for me :)

Yes and the Qur'an also says to fight them too 9:29, and alike no compulsion, was also revealed in Madina. Many Makkan verses had a more pacifist approach due to the circumstances.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

This verse is of course used by both extremists and haters.

However the topic of jihad al ibtidai, has conditions and needs elaboration as that previous article mentioned, and of course scholarship.

Certainly should not be summarily thrown out of the window because of a verse or two that you feel strongly by.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Yes and the Qur'an also says to fight them too 9:29, and alike no compulsion, was also revealed in Madina. Many Makkan verses had a more pacifist approach due to the circumstances.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

This verse is of course used by both extremists and haters.

However the topic of jihad al ibtidai, has conditions and needs elaboration as that previous article mentioned, and of course scholarship.

Certainly should not be summarily thrown out of the window because of a verse or two that you feel strongly by.

 

 

Ok good argument! 

Let me tell you why it doesn't make me fish it back from outside the window:

The verse you posted does not generalize a sequence of events. Remember that in other places the Qur'an talks of AHL kitab favourably. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that not all AHL kitab and not all non Muslims are the same. This verse talks about specific situation without saying attack first. On the other hand we have verses that clearly give this sequential rule of defence. And they are many more than two. Here is another one that is quite clear to me:

If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and send you peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you. 4:90

 

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33 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Ok good argument! 

Let me tell you why it doesn't make me fish it back from outside the window:

The verse you posted does not generalize a sequence of events. Remember that in other places the Qur'an talks of AHL kitab favourably. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that not all AHL kitab and not all non Muslims are the same. This verse talks about specific situation without saying attack first.

I am not in disagreement such numerous defensive verses exist, I understand there are both defensive and offensive after all in our fiqh.

Quote

There is only one verse which exclusively refers to al jihad al‑ ibtida’I (and perhaps some other verses as well may be interpreted as referring to it):

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ قَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يَلُونَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡڪُفَّارِ وَلۡيَجِدُواْ فِيكُمۡ غِلۡظَةً۬‌ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ

O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that God is with the God‑fearing. (9:123)

The above‑mentioned verse calls for jihad against unbelievers who live in vicinity to Muslims; and it is natural that their efforts at propaga­ting Islam should begin with nearby regions and then spread gradually to distant ones. In the ensuing discussion, regarding the aims of jihad, we will explain how the starting of war against unbelievers (al jihad al‑ 'ibtida’I) is also a natural right.

 

 

The following verse refers to a nation of mujahidun who struggle sincerely and bravely, undertaking the duty of purging the Earth of polytheism. They are a people who are not deterred by any reproach or blame in their jihad and in their struggle to universalize the word of Truth.

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرۡتَدَّ مِنكُمۡ عَن دِينِهِۦ فَسَوۡفَ يَأۡتِى ٱللَّهُ بِقَوۡمٍ۬ يُحِبُّہُمۡ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ ۥۤ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ يُجَـٰهِدُونَ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوۡمَةَ لَآٮِٕمٍ۬‌ۚ

O believers, whoso of you turns from his religion, (know that in his stead) God will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble towards the believers stern towards the unbelievers, men who strive in the way of God, not fearing the reproach of any reproacher ....(5:54)

From this it can be concluded that al jihad al‑`ibtida’I as a call to the polytheists for return to monotheism is a legitimate and natural right, which is used when logical and rational approaches, peaceful invita­tions, communication of the Divine message, warnings, good tidings, proofs, and presentation and explanation of the Qur’anic verses prove of no avail.

This approach is not exclusive to religion, rather it is a method adopted by all nations. In all social orders and systems where the people accept and honour a law for the development and welfare of society, it is considered a right to take steps to make the rebels and the guilty, submit to the law after attempts at their guidance have failed on account of their obstinacy.

This is an innate right of every system. Then, why must a Divine system based on monotheism should be deprived of it?

In the light of the above discussion, the verse “Fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you”, is not confined to defensive jihad. In the story of the Prophet Solomon (A), mentioned in Surat al Nahl, Solomon threatens the polytheists of Sheba with these words:

فَلَنَأۡتِيَنَّهُم بِجُنُودٍ۬ لَّا قِبَلَ لَهُم بِہَا وَلَنُخۡرِجَنَّہُم مِّنۡہَآ أَذِلَّةً۬ وَهُمۡ صَـٰغِرُونَ

....so we will most certainly come to them with hosts which they shall have no power to resist, and we shall expel them from there, abased and utterly humbled. (27:37)

In this case there existed no aggression or provocation. Solomon's threat is in response to the un-acceptance of his invitation to mono­theism addressed in his letter to the Queen of Sheba. Therefore, this Qur’anic story indicates the lawfulness of starting war against unbelievers.

 

So far you have only provided your opinion, you have yet to show me Shia sources/literature saying we only have defensive jihad, as per your original comment I replied to.

I am not sure if you genuinely believe this or whether you are sugar coating things which may appear negative to non-Muslims. I mean slavery is technically not absolutely abolished in fiqh, you wouldn't say that is not part of Islam either right?

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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@Propaganda_of_the_Deed thanks good argument again masha Allah. But to me it does not specify "first", as this verse can easily be in reference to people they are at war with already. It is open and not specifying who starts, unlike the other verses that do. So I go with the specific verses that point towards the defensive rule.

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There is no such thing as offensive Jihad. It's shameful this is being advocated. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't going to bend very clear and established principles for anyone.

Quit twisting Quranic verses to promote this sick idea.

 

Edited by Fink

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1 minute ago, Fink said:

There is no such thing as offensive Jihad. It's shameful this is being advocated. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't going to bend very clear and established principles for anyone.

Quit twisting Quranic verses to promote this sick idea.

 

Again, you can refer to the link, I am not "twisting" anything. For someone who describes themself as a Quranist, you sure come off as selective 

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Just now, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Again, you can refer to the link, I am not "twisting" anything. For someone who describes themself as a Quranist, you sure come off as selective 

The Qur'an needs to be understood collectively. Tell me when these offensive Jihads occured that the Qur'an orders Muslims to lead?? These are words given to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) , give us examples of his offensive jihads since according to you Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) orders him to do so?

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11 minutes ago, Fink said:

The Qur'an needs to be understood collectively. Tell me when these offensive Jihads occured that the Qur'an orders Muslims to lead?? These are words given to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) , give us examples of his offensive jihads since according to you Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) orders him to do so?

My point which I've repeated on more than one occaision now. Is that it is part of Shia jurisprudence, not an exclusive Sunni or Salafi concept. The only difference that it can only happen under a Masoom leader.

If you disagree with it that is fine, but if you want to dispute that it is part of our fiqh then I'm afraid you are incorrect. However you are welcome to ask those valid questions to a scholar.

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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

What the definition of offensive jihad in this thread ?

 

I'd imagine as defined from earlier 

Jihad with unbelievers so that they may abandon their false beliefs and incline towards Islam. This type of jihad is referred to as al‑jihad al‑ 'ibtidai (a case when fighting is initiated by Muslims)
Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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1 minute ago, Warilla said:

So this includes "peaceful"non believers ?

From the same article, it would appear so

used when logical and rational approaches, peaceful invita­tions, communication of the Divine message, warnings, good tidings, proofs, and presentation and explanation of the Qur’anic verses prove of no avail.

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