Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
islam25

Why to call ourselves Shia and not Muslim.

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Quote

Man @Murtaza1 you actually remind me of an Egyptian movie character [EDIT]

@313 Seeker

Why are you trying to change the subject. This is not a laughing matter. I can assure you Islam is not a Hollywood movie.

Islam requires unconditional acceptance of it's conditions. Believers should not be acting like this in such matters or make forceful demands for anything in return. You should accept the truth for what it is. You just want everybody to accept what you say.

I think you are having a ego trip my friend not me. Islam does not work like this. If you are not going to take that spiritual journey then at least try this other approach:

Ask yourself what causes this "baseless firewood for fitna and division" to form in our communities as you call it. I am sure you will find your answers pointing to yourself. 

Edited by Hameedeh
EDIT in the quote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Murtaza1  you should fear the punishment of dunya, of tonight in your sleep, the way the Angel's will take you, the taste of flames for arrogant haughty people, the choking of your grave, and the eternal flames of hell for those who are mutakabereen and talk like dumb blind people cursed by Allah for all eternity, drinking molten steel, swelling thorny hellish plants, having your skin removed and fried off, calling out for help, getting no reply except the people in jannah looking down at you enjoying the sight. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

To me the imperfection is part if Allahs perfect plan. So I see imperfection in me and all of creations.

So you think that everything is created imperfectly or imperfect?

32:7

الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ

27:88

صُنْعَ اللَّهِ الَّذِي أَتْقَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ

87:2-3

الَّذِي خَلَقَ فَسَوَّىٰ وَالَّذِي قَدَّرَ فَهَدَىٰ

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2019 at 5:00 AM, Salsabeel said:

Is there any choice in the religion, specifically in the case of accepting the wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen (asws)?

I don't know the reason of confusion on this matter among Shia brothers here on this thread.

We have to obey the command of Prophet, every command, and that includes what has been commanded in ghadeer. 

I don’t think anyone would “refuse” the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  But what does it mean to “accept” the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?  You have your understanding of what it means to “accept” the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), I have mine, but if you ask an Arif like Tabattabai, one wonders what he probably would understand by it from his innermost heart (and what it’s full implications were).  Whatever it is... it must be something profound.  Allahu Alam!

The point I am making is that “accepting wilayah” is an affair of the heart and each person is at a different level in his or her heart’s understanding of the true meaning of wilayah... and there is “very little” that can be done to make this inward affair (esoteric) an outward affair (exoteric).  Now to make something outward(exoteric) is to first of all name or label it, then to make it into a theology, and finally to become dogmatic about it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2019 at 9:48 PM, eThErEaL said:

I don’t think anyone would “refuse” the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  But what does it mean to “accept” the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

There are many who refuse to accept the wilayah of Amirul Mo'mineen (asws). 

I think there should not be any problem in finding out and understanding the meaning of "acceptance", if one just see what has been commanded with its full context (I.e., the sermon of ghadeer). It means "submission" just as we have a clear understanding of accepting the "Wilayah" of Prophet (S), in that case the acceptance means total submission.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:48 PM, eThErEaL said:

The point I am making is that “accepting wilayah” is an affair of the heart and each person is at a different level in his or her heart’s understanding of the true meaning of wilayah.

Yes, there are people who say that "Mowla" means friend, yet they never disassociate themselves from the enemies of their mowla (friend). The case of Muawiyah (L) is an example and you are aware of what Ahlul Sunnah say about him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I don't consider myself infallible because of my imperfections.

Neither do I, but that doesn't mean that attaining perfection is impossible. You will agree with me on one thing perhaps, I.e., the religion for which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "Alyowma akmalto lakyum deenokum".

:) Now that would require your understanding of perfection (kamal), then we need to discuss & compare it with the completion (tamam) and progress (pishraft). And you also need to understand that we cannot compare the perfection of created things with the Absolute for He is incomparable (Laitha ka mithlehe shay).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2019 at 1:17 AM, Salsabeel said:

There are many who refuse to accept the wilayah of Amirul Mo'mineen (asws). 

I think there should not be any problem in finding out and understanding the meaning of "acceptance", if one just see what has been commanded with its full context (I.e., the sermon of ghadeer). It means "submission" just as we have a clear understanding of accepting the "Wilayah" of Prophet (S), in that case the acceptance means total submission.

Yes, there are people who say that "Mowla" means friend, yet they never disassociate themselves from the enemies of their mowla (friend). The case of Muawiyah (L) is an example and you are aware of what Ahlul Sunnah say about him. 

You are becoming dogmatic about something which is really meant to be a matter of the heart.  You may be surprisisd to find out (allahu alam) that  one may not talk about wialayah at all and still be more of a follower of the wilayah of Ali (عليه السلام) than someone like you.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

So you think that everything is created imperfectly or imperfect?

32:7

الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ

27:88

صُنْعَ اللَّهِ الَّذِي أَتْقَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ

87:2-3

الَّذِي خَلَقَ فَسَوَّىٰ وَالَّذِي قَدَّرَ فَهَدَىٰ

 

The word perfect or infallible don't really exist in Arabic, so the ayat you quoted do not actually mean precisely the English word perfect at all. 

For instance the first aya you quoted has the word ahsana falsely or inaccurately as perfect. Ahsan means more like better or beautiful or good. Like hasanaat are good deeds and the famous Hassan and Hussein that you mentioned. It is really annoying to see people use English translations to prove things in scientific discussion about Qur'an, but I don't blame people doing so who are limited to English. But then I urge them to check or ask at least concerning the key words before using it as supposed proof.

The word kamil does not mean perfect either. It means rather complete, and anyway that word isn't really used in any verse that cam prove infallibly as far as I remember.

To "understand" infallibility is impossible for us, because it takes an infallible to know what it is. And only God is infallible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Neither do I, but that doesn't mean that attaining perfection is impossible. You will agree with me on one thing perhaps, I.e., the religion for which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "Alyowma akmalto lakyum deenokum".

:) Now that would require your understanding of perfection (kamal), then we need to discuss & compare it with the completion (tamam) and progress (pishraft). And you also need to understand that we cannot compare the perfection of created things with the Absolute for He is incomparable (Laitha ka mithlehe shay).

I thought that yesterday you said that you are capable of being infallible. 

Anyway the sentence again containing "akmalt" in Arabic is rather completed, and the religion is anyway not the person. Islam is a religion, and not a person. So that does not prove the status of a person. 

Again, let me reiterate that there is nothing called more or less kamil, or more and less perfect. Can a glass be more or less full. Kamil is like full. No, perfect and kamil are both absolute terms, and anything absolute is reserved for the One. We are all limited by duality, imperfection and incompleteness. Like our knowledge, understanding, vision, are all incomplete. How can we understand what it means to be complete if we aren't? 

This is my opinion is what you need to understand. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2019 at 11:40 AM, 313 Seeker said:

What I said is that me and Sunnis have mistakes. Hence Sunnis can be forgiven, 

Yes you are full of confusion and mistakes. Don't be so sure about forgiveness. You people will have to burn in the fire to become purified, if you ever get purified that is. 

On 3/17/2019 at 11:48 AM, 313 Seeker said:

It is impossible for us to be infallible.

Astagfurillah 

On 3/17/2019 at 12:05 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Wow you and me live in total different realities.

It is not the first time I meet someone here who thinks he can be infallible. To me not even Prophets or Imam Mahdi or Imam Ali is infallible :D

Astagfurillah for what you say.

I am happy in my beliefs and reality thank you very much. I don't need your advice or opinion. I don’t want to be locked up in a mental hospital :ko:

On 3/17/2019 at 12:20 PM, 313 Seeker said:

 I am in dire need of repentance all the time and see imperfection in everything in front of Allah.

Ask Allah subhana tala for forgiveness then. Its no point telling us here about it. 

On 3/17/2019 at 3:17 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Ok good, so you see that yazid is perfect too then?

To me the imperfection is perfect. 

That is the most evil and stupidest thing I have ever heard :hahaha:

23 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

To me the imperfection is part if Allahs perfect plan. So I see imperfection in me and all of creations. I don't consider myself infallible because of my imperfections.

You got that right about yourself. You are doomed. You are far from infallible lol :furious: :hahaha:

20 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

@Murtaza1  you should fear the punishment of dunya, of tonight in your sleep, the way the Angel's will take you, the taste of flames for arrogant haughty people, the choking of your grave, and the eternal flames of hell for those who are mutakabereen and talk like dumb blind people cursed by Allah for all eternity, drinking molten steel, swelling thorny hellish plants, having your skin removed and fried off, calling out for help, getting no reply except the people in jannah looking down at you enjoying the sight. :D

Well no such thing happened to me last night. No angel came to torture me. Obviously you like to lie and dig yourself deeper into the pits of hell. For your information only Allah subhana wa tala knows when we will die. 

I see you are well aware of what will happen to people like yourself when the angel rips your souls apart even though your job is to copy and paste information. 

May Allah subhana wa tala guide you. You need to stop posting all this nonsense which makes no sense at all and fear the fire of hell and Barzak. You are no Einstein but extremely stupid and evil :einstein: :discussion:

Edited by Murtaza1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/14/2019 at 3:59 PM, islam25 said:

If we really want to be United then we should leave the tittle of "Shia" and "Sunni" and own the "Muslim" title.

Because the  name of sects  too have  divisive effect and adds to hatred and prejudice.

@ShiaMan14 @Anonymous2144 @layman @eThErEaL @Abu Nur @Ralvi @Salsabeel

Shia is not considered as a "Sect " we have not deviated from the true path of Islam.

Shakir: Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

For you to assume we had divided religion into different parts, then you need to demonstrate comprehensively from the Qur'an that Shia Islam has taken a different path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, power said:

Shia is not considered as a "Sect " we have not deviated from the true path of Islam.

Shakir: Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

For you to assume we had divided religion into different parts, then you need to demonstrate comprehensively from the Qur'an that Shia Islam has taken a different path.

Every child like to thinks he is the best or the most special one out there until he grows up only to realize (after intelligence starts to shimmer some light into him) how self-centered and arrogant that viewpoint is.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2019 at 7:04 AM, eThErEaL said:

 one may not talk about wialayah at all and still be more of a follower of the wilayah of Ali (عليه السلام) than someone like you.  

Indeed, and that is what I call acceptance/submission, following the footsteps & guidance of Wali is expression of submission through deeds. There is no need to "talk" about it when you are following it with heart & soul. 

On 3/18/2019 at 7:04 AM, eThErEaL said:

You are becoming dogmatic about something which is really meant to be a matter of the heart.

:) how I become dogmatic? The "Wilayah" of Amir-ul-Mo'mineen is not limited to be kept in heart. If we think this way, then we don't have any concept of "Ulil Amr" left. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I thought that yesterday you said that you are capable of being infallible. 

I am still saying that. I am still denying the so called "impossibility" of being infallible. It is certainly possible with divine grace & knowledge. 
 

17 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Anyway the sentence again containing "akmalt" in Arabic is rather completed

If "akmalto" means completed what does "atmamto" means? Kamil & Kamal are the Arabic words usually used in meanings of perfection. 
 

17 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

and the religion is anyway not the person. Islam is a religion, and not a person. So that does not prove the status of a person. 

It is made as "Kamil" by the One who is absolute perfection. And the same religion has been delivered by the "insaan" who is at the stage of Kamal (perfection). A perfect religion cannot be taught by imperfect teacher. 
 

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Indeed, and that is what I call acceptance/submission, following the footsteps & guidance of Wali is expression of submission through deeds. There is no need to "talk" about it when you are following it with heart & soul. 
 

:) how I become dogmatic? The "Wilayah" of Amir-ul-Mo'mineen is not limited to be kept in heart. If we think this way, then we don't have any concept of "Ulil Amr" left. 

Before going further about accepting willayah of Imam Ali , we have to think.

Why this willayah of Imam Ali as is so  Important when we had already Willayah Prophet saww.

And what is the meaning and understanding of willayah?

Is just saying Ali is my leader sufficient proof of accepting his Willayah?

@eThErEaL @Salsabeel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Before going further about accepting willayah of Imam Ali , we have to think.

Why this willayah of Imam Ali as is so  Important when we had already Willayah Prophet saww.

And what is the meaning and understanding of willayah?

Is just saying Ali is my leader sufficient proof of accepting his Willayah?

Salam Prophet Muhammad clearly said who accepted his Wilayah  must accepts Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but Sunnis always interpret it to friendship or love that is only a part of wilayah because you can't accept Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) without at least being friend of him or in higher level love of him & Prophet Muhammad (pbu)

saying it is just a gateway for entering to Shia Islam but we must prove it with our heart & action if we just say it in word we will be from his lovers not Shias that attributes of Shias defined clearly in hadiths by Imams (عليه السلام) 

in a hadith Prophet (pbu) said to Ammar (رضي الله عنه)

روی الدیلمی عن عمار و ابی ایوب عن النبی صلی الله علیه و آله انه قال: «یا عمار ان رایت علیا قد سلک و ادیا و سلک الناس وادیا غیره، فاسلک مع علی ودع الناس . انه لن یدلک علی ردی و لن یخرجک من الهدی » . (1)

1 - کنزالعمال، ج 12، حدیث 1212، چاپ حیدرآباد .

narrated Al-Dailamy from Ammar and Abi-Ayub from messenger (pbu) that he said : " O' Ammar if you saw that Ali goes one way  and rest of people go to other way , you follow way of Ali and leave other people because Ali doesn't lead to perishing way and doesn't make you astray from right path"

Kanzul'Amal , p 12 , Hadith 1212 , HeidarAbad publication

https://hawzah.net/fa/article/view/45502

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Prophet Muhammad clearly said who accepted his Wilayah  must accepts Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but Sunnis always interpret it to friendship or love that is only a part of wilayah because you can't accept Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) without at least being friend of him or in higher level love of him & Prophet Muhammad (pbu)

saying it is just a gateway for entering to Shia Islam but we must prove it with our heart & action if we just say it in word we will be from his lovers not Shias that attributes of Shias defined clearly in hadiths by Imams (عليه السلام) 

in a hadith Prophet (pbu) said to Ammar (رضي الله عنه)

روی الدیلمی عن عمار و ابی ایوب عن النبی صلی الله علیه و آله انه قال: «یا عمار ان رایت علیا قد سلک و ادیا و سلک الناس وادیا غیره، فاسلک مع علی ودع الناس . انه لن یدلک علی ردی و لن یخرجک من الهدی » . (1)

1 - کنزالعمال، ج 12، حدیث 1212، چاپ حیدرآباد .

narrated Al-Dailamy from Ammar and Abi-Ayub from messenger (pbu) that he said : " O' Ammar if you saw that Ali goes one way  and rest of people go to other way , you follow way of Ali and leave other people because Ali doesn't lead to perishing way and doesn't make you astray from right path"

Kanzul'Amal , p 12 , Hadith 1212 , HeidarAbad publication

https://hawzah.net/fa/article/view/45502

 

Why you brought Sunnis in it.

youare obseesed by Sunnis, you should read post patiently before giving knee jerk reply.

My question was what is your understanding of willayah,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...