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In the Name of God بسم الله
islam25

Why to call ourselves Shia and not Muslim.

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Just as the case of Holy Ka'ba is in the Sacred Mosque but 
the Sacred Mosque is not in the Holy Ka'ba so is belief that is 
inclusive of Islam but Islam is not inclusive of belief. Allah, the 
Most Majestic, the Most Holy, has said, "The Arabs have said, 
'We have established belief.' Say, "You have not established 
belief but say, 'We have accepted Islam.' Belief has not yet 
entered your hearts."" (49:14) Therefore, the words of Allah, the 
Most Majestic, the Most Holy, are the most truthful ones.' 1 then 
said, 'Does a believer have any distinction over a Muslim in 
terms of excellence, rules and judicial matters and so forth?' He 
said, 'No, they both in this matter walk the same path. However, 
a believer has distinction over a Muslim in the form of deeds 
through which he seeks nearness to Allah, the Most Majestic, the 
Most Holy.' I said, 'Does Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most 
Holy, not say, "Whoever does a good deed for him the reward 
will be tenfold. . . ." (6:160) You just stated that they both accept 
the obligations of the prayer, al-Zakat (charity), the fasting and 
al-Hajj.' He (the Imam) said, 'Has Allah, the Most Majestic, the 
Most Holy, not said, ". . . He will add to his reward many 
additions." (2:245) Believers are the ones to whose good deeds 
Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, increases seventy 
times. Thus is the distinction of the believer. Allah increases to 
his (believer's) good deeds, proportionate to the degree of the 
correctness of his belief, many additions. Allah does good to the 
believer as He wishes.' I said, 'Is it not that whoever enters in 
Islam has entered belief?' He said, 'No, but he is ascribed to 
belief and has come out of rejection, and I will give you an 
example that will help understand the distinction of belief over 
Islam. Consider, if you see a person in the Sacred Mosque, do 
you testify that you have seen him in the Holy Ka'ba?' I said, 
'No, that is not permissible for me.' He said, 'If you see a person 
in the Holy Ka'ba will you testify that he has entered the Sacred 
Mosque?' I said, 'Yes, I will do so.' He asked, 'Why do you do 
so?' I said, 'He cannot reach the Holy Ka'aba without entering 

first the Sacred Mosque.' He said, 'You said the right thing and 
you did well.' He then said, 'Thus, are Islam and belief.'" 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/5/12/5

 

 

"Once I went in the presence of Abu 'Abd Allah, recipient of 
divine supreme covenant, and said, 'By Allah, it is your 
obligation not to sit (without proclaiming your leadership).' The 
Imam asked, 'Why O Sadir?' I said, 'Because your friends, 
shi'a (followers) and supporters are so many. By Allah, were 
Amir al-Mu'minin (Ali ibn Abu Talib), recipient of divine 
supreme covenant, to have that many shi'a (followers) as your 
shi'a, friends and supporters, no one of the tribe of Tamim or 
'Ady could dare to disturb him.' The Imam said, 'O Sadir, how 
many do you think they are?' I said, 'One hundred thousand.' 
The Imam said, 'One hundred thousand!' I said, 'Yes, in fact, 
they are up to two hundred thousand, and I said, 'Half of the 
world (population) is your shi'a.' 

"The narrator has said that the Imam remained calm and then 
said, 'Is it possible to come with us to Yanbu'?' I said, 'It is fine 
with me.' He then asked to bring a donkey and a mule already 
saddled. 1 hurried to ride the donkey and he said, 'O Sadir, can 
you consider to allow me ride the donkey?' I said, 'The mule is 
more beautiful and noble.' He said, 'The donkey is friendlier for 
me.' I then dismounted and he rode the donkey and I rode the 
mule. We traveled until it was time for prayer. He said, 'O Sadir, 
dismount and we should pray.' Then he said, 'This ground is 
soft, prayer is not permissible here.' We moved to a red ground 
and he looked to a boy who shepherded goats. He said, 'O Sadir, 
were I to have as many shi'a (followers) as the number of these 
goats, then it would not have been permissible for me to sit 
(without proclaiming my leadership).' We dismounted and 
prayed. When we finished the prayer 1 turned to the goats and 
counted them. There were seventeen heads of goats in the 
flock.'" 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/5/96/4

Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn Tsa ibn 'Ubayd from Muhammad ibn Shu'ayb from Tmran Ishaq al-Za'farani from Muhammad ibn Marwan who has said the following.
 

"I heard Abu 'Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) say as 
herein below. "Allah has created us from the light of His greatness. Thereafter He shaped our 
form from a preserved and hidden clay under the Throne. Then He made that light to reside in 
that clay. We then were a spiritual creature of the human being species. He has not placed 
anything as a share from that which we were created in anyone else. He has created the spirits 
of our shi 'a from our clay and their bodies from a preserved and hidden clay from below that 
clay. Allah has not placed anything as a share of that which they are created in anyone except 
the Prophets. Therefore, we and our followers became the people. The rest of the people 
became riffraff for the fire and to the fire." 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/4/94/2



 

Share...Chapter: 96, Hadith: 2311, Number: 4
 
 
Ali ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah has narrated from Ibrahim ibn 'Ishaq from Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Daylamiy from his father who has said the following:
 



"Abu 'Abd Allah, 'Alayhi al-Salam, has said that once 'Abd Allah ibn Qays al-Masir visited Abu 
Ja'far, 'Alayhi al-Salam, and said, 'Tell me why a dead body is given Ghusl (bath) because of carnal 
activities?' Abu Ja'far, 'Alayhi al-Salam, said, 'I do not want to tell you.' He then left and thereafter 
found someone of the followers of the Imam. He said to him, 'It is very strange of you shi'ah people. 
You consider this man as Divine guardian, obey him even if he asks you to worship him. I asked him a 
question but he had no answer for it.' A few days later he visited the Imam again, asked the same 
question and he (the Imam) said, 'I do not want to tell you.' 'Abd Allah ibn Qays then asked one of his 
people, 'Join the shi'ah and pretend among them to be one of those who love the Imam. Condemn and 
denounce me. When it is time to perform Hajj come to me so I pay for your expenses; and then ask 
them to help you visit him (their Imam) Muhammad ibn Ali.
When you are there, then ask him about 
why a dead person is given Ghusl (bath) because of carnal reasons.' The man joined the shi'ah people 
until it was time to perform Hajj. During this time, he had observed the religious conditions of these 
people and had already accepted their belief, but did not tell ibn al-Qays about it for fear of being 
deprived of performing Hajj. When it was time for Hajj,
he went to ibn al-Qays who provided him the 
expenses for Hajj. When he arrived in al-Madinah, his friends told him to stay behind until they 
informed the Imam about him and asked him for permission for a meeting. When they went to see Abu 
Ja'far, 'Alayhi al-Salam, he asked them, 'Where is your companion? You have not treated him with 
fairness.' They said, 'We did not know if you agreed to see him or not.' He then sent someone to bring 
him for a meeting. Abu Ja'far, 'Alayhi al-Salam, welcomed him. He (the Imam) asked, 'How do you 
feel comparing what you have found with what you had before?' He replied, 'O child of the Messenger 
of Allah, I did not have anything.' He said, 'You have spoken the truth.
Your worships in those days 
were easier than what they are today; truth is heavy and Satan is assigned to work hard against our 
shi 'ah but other people themselves work for him.
I, however, will tell you about the question of al- 
Qays al-Masir before even you ask me about it and will leave it for you to decide whether to explain it 
to him or not. Allah, Most High, has created creative agents. When He decides to create a creature, He 
commands them (agents) to get something from the soil, which He has mentioned in His book. "From 
it (soil) We created you and to that soil We return you and take you out of that at another time." 
(20:57) Seed is then mixed with that soil from which they are created later after settling in the womb 
for forty nights. When four months are complete they (agents) ask, "Lord, what do you want to create 
out of it?" He then commands them to do what He wants to be done as regards the gender of the fetus 
being white or black. When the spirit comes out from the body, the seed comes out from that person 
just as it was, regardless of being young or grown up, male or female. For this reason the dead body is 
washed (just as) it is washed for carnal activities. He said, 'O child of the Messenger of Allah, I will 
never tell it to al-Qays al-Masir.' He said, 'It is up to you.'" 

 

Share...Chapter: 32, Hadith: 4401, Number: 1
Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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59 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Is there any choice in the religion, specifically in the case of accepting the wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen (asws)?

I don't know the reason of confusion on this matter among Shia brothers here on this thread.

We have to obey the command of Prophet, every command, and that includes what has been commanded in ghadeer. 

It is impossible to follow every command of Allah and the Prophet. Each of us has his own weaknesses. Allah in the end through his wisdom and forgiveness will determine whom he enters into jannah and whom he enters into hell.

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25 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

It is impossible to follow every command of Allah and the Prophet.

This argument does not really need a debate.

- لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا

The wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen (asws) is something special & weighty. As the Ayah e Balligh mentions its weight:

وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ

And there is no need to present any fake excuses for not obeying the clear commands of Prophet like what has been given at ghadeer.

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا 

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4 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

This argument does not really need a debate.

- لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا

The wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen (asws) is something special & weighty. As the Ayah e Balligh mentions its weight:

وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ

And there is no need to present any fake excuses for not obeying the clear commands of Prophet like what has been given at ghadeer.

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا 

Nobody said it isn't weighty to be in tune with Imam Ali 1400 years ago as it is weighty to be in line with the Imam al zaman today. What I said is that you, me and all Sunnis have mistakes. We are all riddled with sins, and depend on Allah for salvation. It is impossible for you or me to follow every weighty commandment all the time. Hence Sunnis can be forgiven, just like imperfect Shia can be forgiven too. 

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On 3/17/2019 at 6:40 AM, 313 Seeker said:

It is impossible for you or me to follow every weighty commandment all the time.

It is not "IMPOSSIBLE" brother!!!

Not even for you & me or for any other sinner to quit the wrong path and follow the right one. In other words it is not impossible for anyone who want to quit following Shaytaan or his own desires & start following Prophet & his Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them).

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

It is not "IMPOSSIBLE" brother!!!

Not even for you & me or for any other sinner to quit the wrong path and follow the right one. In other words it is not impossible for anyone who want to quit following Shaytaan or his own desires & start following Prophet & his Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them).

 

It is impossible for us to be infallible. We always make mistakes no matter how hard we try.

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Just now, 313 Seeker said:

It is impossible for us to be infallible. 

It is not "impossible" for the one who believes in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). All one need is divine grace & knowledge from Him.

2 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

We always make mistakes no matter how hard we try.

We can learn to remain conscious and maintain the state of sinlessness at which we born. It is not impossible:

وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يُكَفِّرْ عَنْهُ سَيِّئَاتِهِ وَيُعْظِمْ لَهُ أَجْرًا

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

It is not "impossible" for the one who believes in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). All one need is divine grace & knowledge from Him.

We can learn to remain conscious and maintain the state of sinlessness at which we born. It is not impossible:

وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يُكَفِّرْ عَنْهُ سَيِّئَاتِهِ وَيُعْظِمْ لَهُ أَجْرًا

Wow you and me live in total different realities. To me it is impossible to not make mistakes in every single action. It is not the first time I meet someone here who thinks he can be infallible. To me not even Prophets or Imam Mahdi or Imam Ali is infallible :D

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2 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

To me not even Prophets or Imam Mahdi or Imam Ali is infallible :D

:) you have provided the reason of this too:

3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

To me it is impossible to not make mistakes in every single action

For me it is possible with divine grace & knowledge that's why I believe in the infallibility of Prophets & Imams (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them).

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11 hours ago, SirajDin said:

The article provides an almost comprehensive as well as balanced analysis. However, I still couldn't find a direct answer to my question. What kind of human temperament/disposition does each branch represent?

A simple (but rather simplistic) answer that comes to mind is that Sunni Islam accentuates the Message; whereas Shia Islam puts an almost equal emphasis on the Messenger, and by extension, the Imams, as "intermediaries": links between heaven and Earth.

But then, there is no message without the messenger, no messenger without the message; so whether one is Sunni or Shia, attaining truth lies in maintaining the balance; as the Prophet also said that Muslims should cling and follow two weighty things: the message (the Book of Allah) and the carriers and interpreters of that message (the ahl-al-bayt). 

I believe we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there is a significant amount of temperamental diversity within each branch. There are some of us, Shias, who are puritanical literalists, and who have a somewhat 'Salafi' mindset. There are others who have a predominantly rational and scholarly approach to understanding and practicing their religion. There are others for whom emotional connection with the Imams is of supreme importance.

I believe a Sunni and a Shi'a from the same temperament would have much more in common than two Sunnis or two Shias who are different temperamentally. 

There is temperamental diversity in each school as you mentioned... it would be analogous to the complimentary pairs of yin and yang where you will find some yin in the yang and some yang in the yin.  I believe the author of this article may be able to answer your question regarding what the two schools represent as far as human dispositions are concerned.

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/seeds_of_a_divergence-by_frithjof_schuon.aspx

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7 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) you have provided the reason of this too:

For me it is possible with divine grace & knowledge that's why I believe in the infallibility of Prophets & Imams (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them).

Ok nice to meet someone who thinks he can live without making mistakes. I am in dire need of repentance all the time and see imperfection in everything in front of Allah. Let's wait and see who is right ok? :)

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On 3/17/2019 at 2:57 AM, islam25 said:

Brother my post was not why Islam split into two branches. I don't know how right are you in saying that it was will  and plan of Allah that destined the splitting of Islam.

But my Post was that  we should  leave behind our sectarian titles (Sunni and Shia) , and own one title as prescribed by Allah' and that' is Muslim.

By calling ourselves Muslims instead of (Shia and Sunni) we may avoid and overcome the secterian prejudice and disunity.

I tend to see the matter like this as well in certain situations when it is more benenficial to strip away the titles.  Sometimes if you are in a crowd of mature and spiritually refined people however,  mentioning that you are Shia or Sunni  will not be a problem at all.  You might say, what is the benefit?  Because it is part of your background and where you come from (or something practically relevant, like the kind of fiqh you follow).  

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

and see imperfection in everything in front of Allah.

This is the difference between us. I see nothing but perfection in all of His creation:

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا مَّا تَرَى فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَنِ مِن تَفَاوُتٍ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَى مِن فُطُورٍ 

67:3

1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

Ok nice to meet someone who thinks he can live without making mistakes

With divine grace & knowledge.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

This is the difference between us. I see nothing but perfection in all of His creation:

الَّذِي خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا مَّا تَرَى فِي خَلْقِ الرَّحْمَنِ مِن تَفَاوُتٍ فَارْجِعِ الْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَى مِن فُطُورٍ 

67:3

With divine grace & knowledge.

Ok good, so you see that yazid is perfect too then?

To me the imperfection is perfect because Allah made it this way, but I don't want to share the fate of those that are bad.

Just like Adam wasn't aware of his imperfection or su2 until he ate from the tree, not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This verse you quoted basically talks about that imperfect people like yazid are all in all part of the perfect order of Allah, but Allah definitely created imperfection and impurity, oppression, lies, crimes, Ignorance, lack of understanding, jealousy etc. So I see reality within me and around me. Only Allah is perfect and He has no partners. 

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On 3/17/2019 at 10:17 AM, 313 Seeker said:

so you see that yazid is perfect too then?

Yes, he was a perfect evil in his deeds. 

His limited worldly existence as a human being too was a result of absolute perfection. The sight, the hearing, the heart, the DNA etc are the other examples.

On 3/17/2019 at 10:17 AM, 313 Seeker said:

So I see reality within me and around me.

But you said the opposite earlier

On 3/17/2019 at 7:20 AM, 313 Seeker said:

and see imperfection in everything in front of Allah.

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On 3/17/2019 at 1:00 PM, Salsabeel said:

Yes, he was a perfect evil in his deeds. 

His limited worldly existence as a human being too was a result of absolute perfection. The sight, the hearing, the heart, the DNA etc are the other examples.

But you said the opposite earlier

To me the imperfection is part if Allahs perfect plan. So I see imperfection in me and all of creations. I don't consider myself infallible because of my imperfections.

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By the way nobody is perfectly good or perfectly bad according to AHL bayt as well. That is why they said that good people have good clay and bad people have bad clay and do good. Allah rewards them for the good they did in this world. 

Edited by 313 Seeker

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On 3/14/2019 at 3:59 PM, islam25 said:

If we really want to be United then we should leave the tittle of "Shia" and "Sunni" and own the "Muslim" title.

Because the  name of sects  too have  divisive effect and adds to hatred and prejudice.

@ShiaMan14 @Anonymous2144 @layman @eThErEaL @Abu Nur @Ralvi @Salsabeel

How can we unite two opposites? The answer is if they respect each others differences. The hate comes from Sunnis lets be fair.

Sunnis and Shias do live peacefully together in Pakistan and have marriages. Its not impossible. 

On 3/14/2019 at 6:47 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Saying I'm Shia and not suni, or I'm suni and not Shia does not make any real sense. I see it as an illogical baseless firewood for fitna and division. 

I think you are completely missing the point. I don't think you understand the meaning of logic or simply haven't researched Islam properly.

You do not seem to understand that core Islamic principles are rooted in the foundation of Shia Islam.

Like a trunk of a tree that represents Islam and branches that represent Shia Islam, you only seem to start your research from the leaves. You need to start from the trunk which would lead you to the branches and then the leaves. Metaphorically speaking of course. 

It is easy for people to say this and that but it's harder for them to come to a logical conclusion my friend. It requires an open mind and patience. Its the price of eternal janah. 

Edited by Murtaza1

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2 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

think you are completely missing the point. I don't think you understand the meaning of logic or simply haven't researched Islam properly.

I can say the exact same thing about you. Your entire post has no substance, just talking about how little knowledge I have. Maybe you can actually address what I said instead of ego tripping?

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@313 Seeker

The underlying truth or substance as you call it can be found in the roots of true Islam. You will find the knowledge there. I am not going to lecture you here about it. I have enlightened you on the direction to take. The rest is up to you. You have to research yourself that will be your spiritual journey. May Allah guide you inshallah. 

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