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In the Name of God بسم الله
islam25

Why to call ourselves Shia and not Muslim.

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5 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Out of 72 sects about 12 are self proclaimed Shia of al bayt who are going to hell. Nobody can be sure they are going to paradise. Nobody but a fool feels safe from Allah, as per the Qur'an. Saying that one is moomin is easy, but the ultimate proof is in the next life after we face the balance and return to God with our book either on the left or right side. I don't think it's a good idea to be so sure that one is among that one group of 72 who are actually against division, as they follow the Prophets way and the way if the One.

That still doesn’t override any of what I said. Logically one is right

or are you in contest with that?

Shia that are right follow all 12, and label ourselves are Jafari fiqh, who is an appointed Imam(عليه السلام). Therefore our rope is the whole rope and not a part of it....

Edited by Ralvi

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4 hours ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

So you dismiss all hadiths in which the Imams (عليه السلام) explain who is a real Shia?
You dismiss all of our scholars' texts in which they talk about Shia identity, etc. etc. etc.?

Read my comment before this one. Islamic unity does not mean we have to abandon our different schools of thought etc. That is a false idea.

Of course, we should not divide without a good reason. But there are different schools of thought and there are different opinions and believes. If we act like we are all the same and only the same then we are dodging the obvious truth. We all should seek the truth.
Seek unity, yes, but we shouldn't be unrealistic. 

If we don’t label ourselves how will they find us?

sometimes people need a label just so they know they are not being manipulated 

even I thought all Muslims were true Muslims as a kid. so when I read my school textbook if I didn’t know I was also Shia I would not have know that such claims were lies

in a way it’s a good method to keep lies from truth

Islam has had long history we have to know who was right and who was wrong. Labels help to clarify this 

Edited by Ralvi

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2 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

“Unity” between Shi’a and Sunni cannot exist whatsoever but tolerance and decency can be shown between each other, our history is extremely important and the truth should be taught and not hidden. The truth is the reason why Sunni and Shi’a cannot “unite”. One school of thought supports the enemies of Islam and one school of thought send Lanat on those who the other school of thought love. Saying Shia and Sunni should “Unite” is like saying the  Khawarij and Shi’a should “Unite” it is simply not possible, in Omen is clear that khawarij can show tolerance and decency between other school of thoughts even though we(Shia) know they are dead wrong. Now I’m not saying we should help them and etc but both school of thoughts should mind their own business and not get on each other’s nerves, our history (even though it is the truth) gets on other school of thoughts nerves, aslong as our history exists and is being preached no tolerance will exist  between both school of thoughts, and that’s the Sunni’s problem not Shi’a. Sunni Islam is very well known to be violent and will always be violent, thus it is normal for them to react violently against anybody. 

Actually to we unite we should be wellversed with teaching of Qur'an and Ahlebayt as.

Our denial for unity means our ignorance from Islam.

And it needs true' knowledge of Islam like Imam Khomine had and who invited Shias and Sunni for unity.Abd even he further said that those who try to spread disunity are tools of kufr.

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14 hours ago, islam25 said:

If we really want to be United then we should leave the tittle of "Shia" and "Sunni" and own the "Muslim" title.

Because the  name of sects  too have  divisive effect and adds to hatred and prejudice.

@ShiaMan14 @Anonymous2144 @layman @eThErEaL @Abu Nur @Ralvi @Salsabeel

Salam, 7

1.  I am ok to just call ourselves as "Muslim" because we believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Muhammad as His Messenger.

2. To make it practical, we must also denounce and hand in hand to fight against current and future enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Messenger.  We must denounce the oppressors and protect the oppressed.

I don't care whether what background the person is... Sunni, Shia, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, white, black, brown, yellow.. take your pick.  As long as all of them stick to #2, I can unite with them, respect their belief, and protect their families....  I won't even question their beliefs.

If a person cannot agreed to #2, regardless of what background the person is, I am not with him.

We are united with oppressed people of the world against the oppressors...regardless of differences in religions and personal beliefs.  Let people free to chose their beliefs.

Once the true enemies are finished, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will give the unity among people.

Karbala is for all...Sacrifice and justice are for all to adhere.  If we don't have these two, forget about unity because the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will rule us.  The enemies are going to spread disunity among people.

Who are with me against the Saudis royals and Zionist regime? These two groups are true enemies against unity of Muslims. 

Oppressed people of Iraq, Syria and Lebanon are united against Daesh, Zionist and the US.  And they are not just Shias...they are from different beliefs.  This type of unity achievable.

We will unite under the banner of preparing for the return of the Awaited Saviour.  

Edited by layman

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19 hours ago, islam25 said:

If we really want to be United then we should leave the tittle of "Shia" and "Sunni" and own the "Muslim" title.

Because the  name of sects  too have  divisive effect and adds to hatred and prejudice.

@ShiaMan14 @Anonymous2144 @layman @eThErEaL @Abu Nur @Ralvi @Salsabeel

Whether united or not, we are Muslims and there is no question about it. Whom we are following in Islam is what makes us Shia of Ali Ibn Abi Talib (asws). Similarly those who are following the elected caliphs, call themselves Sunni's, they too are Shias of Abu Bakr & Co. in a sense that they are following them and accepting them as Ulil Amr. 

Technically they are not the Sunni's as the Sunnah of Prophet (S) is not what they believe in. 

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9 hours ago, Ralvi said:

That still doesn’t override any of what I said. Logically one is right

or are you in contest with that?

Shia that are right follow all 12, and label ourselves are Jafari fiqh, who is an appointed Imam(عليه السلام). Therefore our rope is the whole rope and not a part of it....

That is lip service. Each of the 72 think they are the only right ones. Just because we have an opinion it does not necessarily mean that we are right. The hadith about the 72 sects does not specify, nor the part about the 12 Shia ones.

For instance the wahhabis believe and pay lip service to them being on the sunah of Prophet Mohammed. They can say that they are, and in theory can anybody deny that a Muslim upon the path of Mohammed is not among the one saved sect? Of course anybody who follows the sunah of Allah and His Prophet will be that one special group. 

So we have all groupings of Muslims claiming they are the one because they believe that their approach is the best, and the one that embodies the sunah. The same goes for all the Muslims who believe in the wilaya who are mostly going to hell.

We are not in the position to say that this one sect is the 12er Shia denomination, because that group is also split into many groups and opinions. And even for instance a sub group of the 12ers who follow waley waqih (for instance), has different ideas within this sub group of millions of people. Even within each family of so-called Shia there can be huge differences. The biggest difference is actually in actions and kindness for instance. One Baasij member might be in it for the wrong reasons, to submit and terrorize people with power trip, while  others might be in it to serve their Lord and their people humbly and full of kindness and compassion.

Allah orders us to have fear of Him, to realize that we are all sinners and dependent on His infinite mercy to enter the gardens. Even those twelvers who follow the real physical Mehdi when the time comes should logically to be too sure that they are true Shia upon the Sunnah. This is because they could always be like the ones following the countless false Mehdis that already arose. Only time will tell, and until we die, get raised again, judged, pass the sirat bridge over hell safely, enter Jannah, it is not logical to say we are the chosen people who really are upon the sunnah, hence the Shia of the current hidden Imam. We can just hope and pray and ask for forgiveness.

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Fundamentally, it's about if we pass the test of this life (for Allah saw), not the name we tag ourselves with - whether "Muslim", "Sunni", "Shi'ite", "Sufi", "Christian", "Zoroastrian", "Hindu" etc. 

However, on a count of historical, doctrinal, theological, eschatological and metaphysical importance and accuracy, I firmly stick to Twelver Shi'ism 100%. 

Now, as my first sentence suggests, identifying with "Shi'ism", "Sunnism" or even "Islam" in the general is not what is going to get us into Jannah/Heaven, it's not. Allah saw knows the heart, knows the soul, knows the integrity and love of the individual, man, woman or child. 

Specificities are what unravel metaphysical truths and the mysteries of one's Deen, but is not the thing that gets a person to Jannah/Heaven. 

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4 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

Fundamentally, it's about if we pass the test of this life (for Allah saw), not the name we tag ourselves with - whether "Muslim", "Sunni", "Shi'ite", "Sufi", "Christian", "Zoroastrian", "Hindu" etc. 

However, on a count of historical, doctrinal, theological, eschatological and metaphysical importance and accuracy, I firmly stick to Twelver Shi'ism 100%. 

Now, as my first sentence suggests, identifying with "Shi'ism", "Sunnism" or even "Islam" in the general is not what is going to get us into Jannah/Heaven, it's not. Allah saw knows the heart, knows the soul, knows the integrity and love of the individual, man, woman or child. 

Specificities are what unravel metaphysical truths and the mysteries of one's Deen, but is not the thing that gets a person to Jannah/Heaven. 

I completely agree with you  that title is not so important for hereafter.

And my suggestion was we should own "Muslim" title to overcome the hatred and disunity.

Because we we follow Islam.

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On 3/14/2019 at 11:59 AM, islam25 said:

If we really want to be United then we should leave the tittle of "Shia" and "Sunni" and own the "Muslim" title.

Because the  name of sects  too have  divisive effect and adds to hatred and prejudice.

@ShiaMan14 @Anonymous2144 @layman @eThErEaL @Abu Nur @Ralvi @Salsabeel

Salam,

“Unity” with respect to what?  United in our titles?  We can be disunited in everything else and yet be united in titles.  

I believe that the way Shia  (and I include not only 12vers, but also Ismailism and Zaydism) Sunni Islam has crystallized over the years and has formed into two unique branches of Islam each with their own heritages and traditions is because it was divinely planned to be so.  It was in the destiny of Islam (the Message of Muhammad (S))that it would be so.  Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition.  I recommend reading Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s Essay on this as he has an interesting way of balancing all this out.  

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

“Unity” with respect to what?  United in our titles?  We can be disunited in everything else and yet be united in titles.  

I believe that the way Shia  (and I include not only 12vers, but also Ismailism and Zaydism) Sunni Islam has crystallized over the years and has formed into two unique branches of Islam each with their own heritages and traditions is because it was divinely planned to be so.  It was in the destiny of Islam (the Message of Muhammad (S))that it would be so.  Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition.  I recommend reading Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s Essay on this as he has an interesting way of balancing all this out.  

"Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition"

Can you elaborate on that, brother?

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44 minutes ago, SirajDin said:

"Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition"

Can you elaborate on that, brother?

I couldn’t have said it better than Dr.... Seyyed Hossein Nasr himself:

start reading Chapter 6.

http://traditionalhikma.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Ideals-and-Realities-of-Islam.pdf

I would recommend reading the entir books. It is one of those essentials reads.  

Thanks

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

“Unity” with respect to what?  United in our titles?  We can be disunited in everything else and yet be united in titles.  

I believe that the way Shia  (and I include not only 12vers, but also Ismailism and Zaydism) Sunni Islam has crystallized over the years and has formed into two unique branches of Islam each with their own heritages and traditions is because it was divinely planned to be so.  It was in the destiny of Islam (the Message of Muhammad (S))that it would be so.  Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition.  I recommend reading Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s Essay on this as he has an interesting way of balancing all this out.  

Not addressed to me but however you are right here, everything that has happened and everything that will happen is written in a record. The splitting of Islam into the two major traditions is not random, as far as Allah saw is concerned. Allah saw Willed it to happen, there are always multiple layers of ideas we can extract from it but it was made to be, as is the Dajjal made to be, as is Iblis made to be, is as the creation of the world made to be, as is our trials and tribulations made to be. 

The situation is just like Christians actually, who were usurped early in their history. The Catholic church/Vatican was Willed to be by Allah saw even though it has always represented the polar opposite of Prophet Isa's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) message and purpose. Christianity is far more fragmented and it's all part of the plan, as with Jews following the doctrines of man, not Allah saw. 

You could name any religion or even non-religion related events in history and he able to see how it fits in with trends of this world, towards certain goals of the Dajjal's spirit of deception. You will only find so little that is actually integrally and morally focused on Allah saw only. Imam Ali (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also speaks of this at times in his Hadith, how even self-professed 'men of Allah' will fall for the vain pleasures of this world and forsake their creator. Life is serious, that's for sure! 

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I couldn’t have said it better than Dr..... Seyyed Hossein Nasr himself:

start reading Chapter 6.

http://traditionalhikma.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Ideals-and-Realities-of-Islam.pdf

I would recommend reading the entir books. It is one of those essentials reads.  

Thanks

Ethereal

The article provides an almost comprehensive as well as balanced analysis. However, I still couldn't find a direct answer to my question. What kind of human temperament/disposition does each branch represent?

A simple (but rather simplistic) answer that comes to mind is that Sunni Islam accentuates the Message; whereas Shia Islam puts an almost equal emphasis on the Messenger, and by extension, the Imams, as "intermediaries": links between heaven and Earth.

But then, there is no message without the messenger, no messenger without the message; so whether one is Sunni or Shia, attaining truth lies in maintaining the balance; as the Prophet also said that Muslims should cling and follow two weighty things: the message (the Book of Allah) and the carriers and interpreters of that message (the ahl-al-bayt). 

I believe we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there is a significant amount of temperamental diversity within each branch. There are some of us, Shias, who are puritanical literalists, and who have a somewhat 'Salafi' mindset. There are others who have a predominantly rational and scholarly approach to understanding and practicing their religion. There are others for whom emotional connection with the Imams is of supreme importance.

I believe a Sunni and a Shi'a from the same temperament would have much more in common than two Sunnis or two Shias who are different temperamentally. 

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2 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

Not addressed to me but however you are right here, everything that has happened and everything that will happen is written in a record. The splitting of Islam into the two major traditions is not random, as far as Allah saw is concerned. Allah saw Willed it to happen, there are always multiple layers of ideas we can extract from it but it was made to be, as is the Dajjal made to be, as is Iblis made to be, is as the creation of the world made to be, as is our trials and tribulations made to be. 

The situation is just like Christians actually, who were usurped early in their history. The Catholic church/Vatican was Willed to be by Allah saw even though it has always represented the polar opposite of Prophet Isa's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) message and purpose. Christianity is far more fragmented and it's all part of the plan, as with Jews following the doctrines of man, not Allah saw. 

You could name any religion or even non-religion related events in history and he able to see how it fits in with trends of this world, towards certain goals of the Dajjal's spirit of deception. You will only find so little that is actually integrally and morally focused on Allah saw only. Imam Ali (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also speaks of this at times in his Hadith, how even self-professed 'men of Allah' will fall for the vain pleasures of this world and forsake their creator. Life is serious, that's for sure! 

Salam,

Indeed, everything is willed by God, “the Good” and “the Evil” (albeit indirectly).  I wasn’t really trying to give evidence for why both Shiaism and Sunnism are two orthodox and valid branches of Islam, I didn’t really state a sufficient reason why they are both valid— one thing for sure is that the analogy between Vatican or the Dajjal with Sunni Islam (not that you were explicitly trying make that analogy) is inappropriate because Shiasm still considers Sunnis within “the folds of Islam” unlike ,for example, Bahaism, Ahmedis, or Rashad Khalifa supporters.

 

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

“Unity” with respect to what?  United in our titles?  We can be disunited in everything else and yet be united in titles.  

I believe that the way Shia  (and I include not only 12vers, but also Ismailism and Zaydism) Sunni Islam has crystallized over the years and has formed into two unique branches of Islam each with their own heritages and traditions is because it was divinely planned to be so.  It was in the destiny of Islam (the Message of Muhammad (S))that it would be so.  Each branch is meant to accommodate for a certain kind of human temperament or disposition.  I recommend reading Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s Essay on this as he has an interesting way of balancing all this out.  

Brother my post was not why Islam split into two branches. I don't know how right are you in saying that it was will  and plan of Allah that destined the splitting of Islam.

But my Post was that  we should  leave behind our sectarian titles (Sunni and Shia) , and own one title as prescribed by Allah' and that' is Muslim.

By calling ourselves Muslims instead of (Shia and Sunni) we may avoid and overcome the secterian prejudice and disunity.

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39 minutes ago, islam25 said:

y calling ourselves Muslims instead of (Shia and Sunni) we may avoid and overcome the secterian prejudice and disunity.

Salam this is just an excuse to run away from truth when Sunnis understand truth but can't confess about truth so they claim we must call all Muslims although "Sunni" title invented from time of Abbasids to distinguish their followers  from mutzila & Zaidis and 12er Shia Muslims  & now Whabists call themselves as "ahlul Sunnah Va Jama't" that means people of sunnah & Congregation to attach themselves to Sunnis & call themselves as "just Muslim" so Shias don't start devision so we don't need to forget our title but other titles created by Ummayids & abbasids to separate their followers from Shias so other titles are sign of devision in Islam also even if you just call yourself a "just Muslim" but you must choose one school for your way of Prayer & other stuff that affects your way of life during 24/7 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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32 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Brother my post was not why Islam split into two branches. I don't know how right are you in saying that it was will  and plan of Allah that destined the splitting of Islam.

But my Post was that  we should  leave behind our sectarian titles (Sunni and Shia) , and own one title as prescribed by Allah' and that' is Muslim.

By calling ourselves Muslims instead of (Shia and Sunni) we may avoid and overcome the secterian prejudice and disunity.

I would say the differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism is like the differences between dialects or accents of a single language. You can speak English with an American accent, a British accent, an Australian accent, etc.; but you cannot say "let's get rid of all the accents and just speak English". Well how do you speak English? The same thing can be said about Sunnis and Shi'ism. Of course, we are all Muslims; and it is the Muslimness that matters most, but we are Muslims within a context: and the Sunni-Shia tradition provides that context. 

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I read hadiths about the difference between the Muslims who follow the wilaya of ahl bayt (the true ones among them), and those who don't, as the difference between the sacred mosque and the kaaba. I read this in usul al Kafi if I remember correctly. I liked this comparison, because they are both good and important. 

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Is there any choice in the religion, specifically in the case of accepting the wilayah of Amir ul Mo'mineen (asws)?

I don't know the reason of confusion on this matter among Shia brothers here on this thread.

We have to obey the command of Prophet, every command, and that includes what has been commanded in ghadeer. 

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