Lab grown real meat

[notme]

Salam

https://www.memphismeats.com/

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

[Ralvi]

42 minutes ago, notme said:

Salam

https://www.memphismeats.com/

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

In that case I think it’s about the principle 

swine is prohibited, therefore even if genetically grown, it’s origin is swine and it’s cell line are from swine.

for other meats it would be the same. Personally meat is muscle from a live animal but labs haven’t really been able to replicate that so far. If it does come to pass I wonder if it would be safe to consume. Considering artificially grown plants have caused much havoc on some consumers(more to do with the pesticides) although overall gmo agriculture is a good thing.

I wonder if the same procedure to make meat halal would apply to lab grown meat. Since the producer(Bacteria etc) now also have to be taken into consideration. Meat in itself is a mercy from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we have sacrifice some for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it’s a means for us to show worship as well 

I wonder what our scholars would say

btw lol I didn’t read the article. I’ll get to it when I can

[Abu_Zahra]

Salam alaikum. This is a very interesting question and it will become more and more important in the future. 

Are the initial cells taken from an actual animal? If so, I would assume that lab grown meat is halal if it originates from an animal that was slaughtered halal or that was living at the time the cells were taken. 

Wallahu a'lam 

[notme]

I wonder, if no animal is slaughtered, is it even considered meat? Biologically, the cells are animal muscle cells, but they don't come from an animal, they are grown in a dish. 

I don't know how the starter cells are collected, but it seems perfectly feasible that they could be collected from a live animal, making slaughter method irrelevant. 

Lab grown meat isn't feasible for feeding humanity, but it will be someday. If there are no rulings on it, our scholars should start looking into it. 

[Hameedeh]

On 3/11/2019 at 7:25 PM, notme said:

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

Salam. This is very interesting! 

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[Murtaza1]

Interestingly Quorn meat is another invention of creating food that smells and tastes just like meat but uses vegetable or wheat proteins I think 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Murtaza1

[notme]

56 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

Interestingly Quorn meat is another invention of creating food that smells and tastes just like meat but uses vegetable or wheat proteins I think 

Artificial meat substitutes which are made from soy, mushrooms, yeast, or plants are definitely halal, including the ones which are meant to resemble bacon. 

[Ralvi]

8 hours ago, notme said:

I wonder, if no animal is slaughtered, is it even considered meat? Biologically, the cells are animal muscle cells, but they don't come from an animal, they are grown in a dish. 

I don't know how the starter cells are collected, but it seems perfectly feasible that they could be collected from a live animal, making slaughter method irrelevant. 

Lab grown meat isn't feasible for feeding humanity, but it will be someday. If there are no rulings on it, our scholars should start looking into it. 

Yeah it’s something to consider 

what if that argument is made for more sinister purposes

...human meat 

I guess cannibals can go ham ;)

[Ralvi]

8 hours ago, notme said:

I wonder, if no animal is slaughtered, is it even considered meat? Biologically, the cells are animal muscle cells, but they don't come from an animal, they are grown in a dish. 

I don't know how the starter cells are collected, but it seems perfectly feasible that they could be collected from a live animal, making slaughter method irrelevant. 

Lab grown meat isn't feasible for feeding humanity, but it will be someday. If there are no rulings on it, our scholars should start looking into it. 

Well having worked in a lab, the bacteria are used to grow the cells of other animals

sometimes other animals used to grow other animal parts 

like spider silk. Grown in goats. Which in that case is still referred to as spider silk 

or rabbit protein / bovine protein etc grown via baceteial generations(typically) in a Petrie dish. Still rabbit origin though

since most meat requires previous cells to grow. Can’t just grow out of thin air(or maybe it can?) I need to recheck 

in that case origin does not become irrelevant 

seriously though our scholars need to get on this

It’s whole can of worms 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ralvi

[AStruggler]

9 hours ago, notme said:

I wonder, if no animal is slaughtered, is it even considered meat? Biologically, the cells are animal muscle cells, but they don't come from an animal, they are grown in a dish. 

I don't know how the starter cells are collected, but it seems perfectly feasible that they could be collected from a live animal, making slaughter method irrelevant. 

Lab grown meat isn't feasible for feeding humanity, but it will be someday. If there are no rulings on it, our scholars should start looking into it. 

This definitely is interesting. If the initial cells used to produce the meat was taken from a living animal then maybe it's possible it would be halal as a normal living cow or goat is intrinsically tahir. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by AStruggler

[notme]

1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

Yeah it’s something to consider 

what if that argument is made for more sinister purposes

...human meat 

I guess cannibals can go ham ;)

This post would have been a perfect opportunity to use the shocked reaction. It was retired due to lack of use. 

But same as pork, if it's lab grown, would it be considered meat? If you grow it in a dish, it's lab meat derived from human/pork cells, not human or pig flesh. 

You could argue that it may have a tiny bit of animal origin, but then you can't eat bread, which invariably has small bugs or possibly even rodents ground up into the flour. 

[Hameedeh]

4 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

If the initial cells used to produce the meat was taken from a living animal then maybe it's possible it would be halal as a normal living cow or goat is intrinsically tahir. 

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

[eThErEaL]

20 hours ago, notme said:

Salam

https://www.memphismeats.com/

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck, it IS a duck.  Same apppies to pork meat.  Why would you call it pork then?

in other words, the essence is what matters here.  The essence of pork.  

[AStruggler]

27 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck, it IS a duck.  Same apppies to pork meat.  Why would you call it pork then?

in other words, the essence is what matters here.  The essence of pork.  

Lol I was thinking the same. If it's a pig it's a pig, whether born naturally or in a laboratory. 

[AStruggler]

42 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

Oh I don't know, it might be possible. 

But maybe to grow the meat all they need is like a DNA sample or something...This can be done without any cutting off...

[Murtaza1]

6 hours ago, notme said:

Artificial meat substitutes which are made from soy, mushrooms, yeast, or plants are definitely halal, including the ones which are meant to resemble bacon. 

I don't feel comfortable about eating Pork Quorn. My mind just can't except it because it hasn't been programed to accept because of religion. 

I've become a vegetarian because I don’t trust halal meat sources in the United Kingdom but I like Linda McCartney brand vegetarian quarter pounder burgers made in the same way as Quorn brand. They taste just like quarter pounders but made of vegetable protein. 

2 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Yeah it’s something to consider 

what if that argument is made for more sinister purposes

...human meat 

I guess cannibals can go ham ;)

I sometimes joke by saying zombies like to eat Muslims because they think we are halal lol 

2 hours ago, Ralvi said:

 Seriously though our scholars need to get on this 

I agree scholars need to look into this artificial meat issue. I wonder if there are any similar rulings already. 

1 hour ago, notme said:

u could argue that it may have a tiny bit of animal origin, but then you can't eat bread, which invariably has small bugs or possibly even rodents ground up into the flour. 

I don't think we can completely avoid little worms 

1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

That sounds very painful 

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck, it IS a duck.  Same apppies to pork meat. Why would you call it pork then? 

I agree. It's very difficult for my mind to except pork even if it is just an imitation of it. Eating pork is a major sin. So my mind has been programmed to think this way possibly for a good reason. 

54 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Lol I was thinking the same. If it's a pig it's a pig, whether born naturally or in a laboratory. 

I totally agree 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Abu Hadi]

23 hours ago, notme said:

Salam

https://www.memphismeats.com/

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

I posted a topic like this a few years ago. There is no ruling on this, as of now. that I am aware of. Marjaa' need to study this issue.

[notme]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

I posted a topic like this a few years ago. There is no ruling on this, as of now. that I am aware of. Marjaa' need to study this issue.

I was pretty sure it had been discussed here before, but I didn't find your topic in a search. 

Right now the question is purely hypothetical, but with the movement toward more environmentally friendly living, meat is going to increase in price, and in time lab grown meat will be improved and then mass produced. It would be good to have scholars studying this before it becomes an issue, but they're still divided on cheese and that has existed as long as agriculture. 

[Ralvi]

5 hours ago, notme said:

This post would have been a perfect opportunity to use the shocked reaction. It was retired due to lack of use. 

But same as pork, if it's lab grown, would it be considered meat? If you grow it in a dish, it's lab meat derived from human/pork cells, not human or pig flesh. 

You could argue that it may have a tiny bit of animal origin, but then you can't eat bread, which invariably has small bugs or possibly even rodents ground up into the flour. 

In that case principle matters whether it’s live or not. We are prohibited from consuming some meats and sea life

that's how I see it anyway 

becuase if we permit that then what next?

[Ralvi]

4 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Oh I don't know, it might be possible. 

But maybe to grow the meat all they need is like a DNA sample or something...This can be done without any cutting off...

It becomes infinitely more complex that way

buy yeah it’s possible in theory

science isn’t that advanced yet to produce meat like that

becuase the first thing I would do is grow hearts. Since technically that is meat and muscle 

[Ralvi]

5 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

We cut off for the purposes of science and food

we can’t eat live animals for food. We have to kill it mercifully then consume it

So I don’t think it’s permissible or halal at all

you know another issue comes up here

lab rats. Science really can be cruel to these creatures. But I guess it’s for the greater good?

[Hameedeh]

5 hours ago, AStruggler said:

If the initial cells used to produce the meat was taken from a living animal 

5 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

4 hours ago, AStruggler said:

But maybe to grow the meat all they need is like a DNA sample or something...This can be done without any cutting off...

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

There is no ruling on this, as of now. that I am aware of. Marjaa' need to study this issue.

1 hour ago, notme said:

Right now the question is purely hypothetical, but with the movement toward more environmentally friendly living, meat is going to increase in price, and in time lab grown meat will be improved and then mass produced. It would be good to have scholars studying this before it becomes an issue

8 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

we can’t eat live animals for food. We have to kill it mercifully then consume it

These questions need to be answered soon. If I remember correctly, the company was hoping to start selling lab grown meat next year, in 2020. 

[notme]

1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

These questions need to be answered soon. If I remember correctly, the company was hoping to start selling lab grown meat next year, in 2020. 

But it will be expensive. Most of us will not be eating lab grown meat anytime soon. It will only become accessible when it can be mass produced and when the prices of real meat go up to a restrictive level. 

Even vegetarian meat substitutes are expensive when compared to non-halal meats, and they will be as long as the demand is small. We Muslims are just used to paying more for our meats so the vegetarian substitutes seem reasonable to us. 

[Marbles]

Everyone is talking about whether or not it'd be halal to consume lab grown 'meat,' but no one is asking if that thing would be meat in the first place, and whether it would be safe to consume?

Even regular animals raised on chemically altered feed in artificial environments isn't healthy to consume in the long term.

Personally, I only count pasture raised and grass fed animals and birds as proper meat, but it's becoming harder and harder to afford especially in countries where natural farming is a fringe activity.

[Murtaza1]

9 minutes ago, Marbles said:

Personally, I only count pasture raised and grass fed animals and birds as proper meat, but it's becoming harder and harder to afford especially in countries where natural farming is a fringe activity.

I also favour organic meat but it can be expensive. I am a vegetarian anyway. The main factor is protein. These artificial meats are a protein source. For example vegans find it difficult to meat certain dietary amounts of nutrients. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Ralvi]

1 hour ago, Marbles said:

Everyone is talking about whether or not it'd be halal to consume lab grown 'meat,' but no one is asking if that thing would be meat in the first place, and whether it would be safe to consume?

Even regular animals raised on chemically altered feed in artificial environments isn't healthy to consume in the long term.

Personally, I only count pasture raised and grass fed animals and birds as proper meat, but it's becoming harder and harder to afford especially in countries where natural farming is a fringe activity.

Lol I brought it up

thats the one major thing we have to consider

because due to gmo more allergies have arisen. For myself I was never allergic to fruits as a a child. Couple years later I’m allergic to almost all fruits 

so it’s a big factor. Although many foods contain lab grown ingredients nowadays. Well the fast food stuff and fake junk foods 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Ralvi

[Abbas.]

On 3/12/2019 at 11:25 AM, notme said:

Salam

https://www.memphismeats.com/

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

Halal pork aye?  

On a serious note, 

If the source of a Genetically Modified Food (GMF) or any other form of lab product is haram in itself, it is better to avoid it by way of precaution at the very least [in my humble opinion]

17 hours ago, notme said:

This post would have been a perfect opportunity to use the shocked reaction. It was retired due to lack of use. 

But same as pork, if it's lab grown, would it be considered meat? If you grow it in a dish, it's lab meat derived from human/pork cells, not human or pig flesh. 

You could argue that it may have a tiny bit of animal origin, but then you can't eat bread, which invariably has small bugs or possibly even rodents ground up into the flour. 

Small bugs are inevitable. We can never get rid of them. For this reason, we are disciplined by Islamic laws and by various forms of worship in Islam to observe cleanliness at all times [unless they cause a great deal of inconvenience OR unless we are left with no option to observe cleanliness in practical life]. 

Pork, on the other hand, is a meat which is expressly stated by Islamic law as haram for the purpose of consumption. Therefore, even if we create an artificial lab product or a byproduct from the cells of pork or bacon we are "technically" as well as "potentially", if not actually, using haram to invent & consume halal. Therein lies the issue of whether such a product should receive a welcome in the Muslim community. In this regard, the potential counter-arguments that I foresee are whether such products are essential in the near future due to the scarcity of food supplies or due to their need for medicinal reasons etc.

[Hameedeh]

Memphis Meats accounts (facebook, instagram and twitter) no longer exist! Their youtube channel still works: 

https://www.youtube.com/c/MemphisMeats/videos

On March 12, 2019, I registered with Memphis Meats to get their newsletter. They have not been spamming my email. After informing me that I am registered with them, I have received two emails:

January 22, 2020, I received an email that $161 million dollars was raised to build a pilot production facility, continue to reduce their cost of production, and keep recruiting the world’s best talent (they were hiring). 

June 24, 2021, I received an email from Memphis Meats, saying they changed their name to UPSIDE Foods and hired a new COO. 

No wonder their social media accounts no longer exist.

[Abdul-Hadi]

There is no halal grocer around me, so I avoid the halal issue by not eating meat. Nobody in my family eats meat anyway, so when I want meat or something, I get vegan meat substitutes. I just ate a veggie burger tonight for dinner actually. I like them better than real meat now and they're better for you because they contain almost no cholesterol. I can still have "bacon" and "breakfast sausage" because none of it is made of actual meat, let alone pork. It's all vegetable protein based and is approved as vegan.

I'm not a vegan though, I still eat dairy products. They're all kosher so by extension I assume that they're also halal if they aren't marked as such.

[Hameedeh]

Salam. Memphis Meats now doing business as Upside Foods sent me an email today. For anyone who thought that their "cultured meat" might be vegan or vegetarian, it's not going to be labeled as such. Their cultured chicken meat is going to be labeled as chicken because it is meat grown directly from animal cells (chicken). 

Quote

UPSIDE Foods makes cultivated meat. It's not vegan or vegetarian, it’s delicious meat grown directly from animal cells. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 3/13/2019 at 3:03 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I posted a topic like this a few years ago. There is no ruling on this, as of now. that I am aware of. Marjaa' need to study this issue.

Salam there is a Fatwa about it from Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi

The ruling on the use of cultured and artificial meats
Question: Since the world's population is increasing, naturally more people consume meat and the need for livestock is increasing, which causes environmental damage. Therefore, scientists are looking for ways to increase the production of meat without slaughtering animals. In this method; Stem cells are taken from a live cow and real edible meat is grown from that meat in a lab without killing or harming an animal. Since there is no slaughter and the meat is produced in a laboratory, can a Muslim eat it?

Answer: If feeding that meat  has been done with halal ingredients and eating it does not cause significant harm, there is no problem.

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=21&lid=0&catid=28864&mid=265833

 

6 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Salam. Memphis Meats now doing business as Upside Foods sent me an email today. For anyone who thought that their "cultured meat" might be vegan or vegetarian, it's not going to be labeled as such. Their cultured chicken meat is going to be labeled as chicken because it is meat grown directly from animal cells (chicken). 

 

Hello

This issue is being followed up.

But its initial ruling, with the investigations carried out, has no problem from the Shari'a point of view.

The answer is under review and completing

http://askdin.com/thread/حکم-مصرف-گوشت-مصنوعی

Abstract

Background and purpose: production of cloned meat is one of the types of animal meat processing using stem cells or animal muscle cells in the laboratory, and the sanctity of eating such meat is one of the emerging issues related to processed food. The expansion of food production methods on the one hand and the necessity of adapting the method of food consumption to the holy Islamic Sharia on the other hand, makes it clear the need to examine the solubility or non-solubility of different foods, so the goal is to achieve the jurisprudence of simulated meats.

Materials and methods: The research method in this article is comparative and analytical, and then the criteria and principles governing the subject in the religious society and the rules that are considered on this subject from the point of view of jurisprudence and Islamic law have been explained.

Conclusion: In this issue, Islamic jurists and thinkers have two approaches, for and against, some of them have taken the side of caution due to the concern of the risks of the issue, or have generally prohibited the use of this meat, and others have taken the side based on the principle of innocence and the principle of solution. They took the approval and prescribed its consumption. With the studies carried out, it seems that at the present time, based on the current needs of the country [Iran] and according to the principle of negation of the dominance of the infidels, if it is possible to prove the non-harmfulness of this product. Also, on the condition of taking the primary cell from a meat-halal animal, it is possible to judge the consumption of cloned meats.
key words:

    Meat; Colony meat; solution[permissibility]; Eat

https://journals.sbmu.ac.ir/mf/article/view/21440

https://jfiqh.um.ac.ir/article_41195.html

[kadhim]

On 3/12/2019 at 4:43 PM, Hameedeh said:

Is there an Islamic law that it is haram to cut off a piece of meat from an animal that is still alive? 

There is an existing notion that you’re not supposed to just hack a chunk of flesh off a live animal and eat that. Most likely for animal welfare reasons. But that’s quite a different scenario from collecting some starter cells with a syringe or what not. 

[kadhim]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:25 PM, notme said:

Would real meat grown from cell culture, which has never been a live animal, be halal for Muslims to consume? 

If yes, what about lab grown pork? 

For the case of animals we already eat, I think it’s almost trivial to establish that it’s fine.

For things like pork, I think most scholars will probably just reflexively say no by precaution. That’s likely to be the unanimous or at least predominant majority opinion.

Putting on my Talut al-Goodman kufi though, I think an argument could be made for it though. 

One line of argument is that the Quran forbids not “pork,” but “the flesh of swine” (lah’mal khinzeer). If there is no swine immediately involved, is it “flesh of swine”? This is kind of a pedantic linguistic argument, but that’s fiqh for ya.

Another line of argument could take a contextual approach to the classical issue of pig flesh. If the issue with pig flesh is not something essential to the meat on a biochemical level, but rather, for example, something ecological about raising pigs as animals (their excessive need for water in a desert environment, or the polluting impact of their wastes), then this would not be relevant without the animals, and thus it would no longer be a problem. The counter to that argument is that we have no textual evidence as for the reason of the ban on pork. The counter to that counter is that there’s no real scientific evidence to date of any inherent medical issues with pork as a source of meat. 

So there are arguments that could be made. But like I said, I think most scholars will be reflexively thumbs down on factory-grown pork.