Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
King

Pakistan Vs India

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

This was out yesterday, it maybe true, it maybe not, there is no conclusive proof so it is just hearsay at this point.  There has been a lot of fake reporting from both sides.

Edited by King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There could be 2 reasons of Pakistan denying about downed F-16:

1. F-16s, as per end user agreement with US manufacturers, can only be used for counter-terrorism. Even using it for drills requires informing the manufacturer in advance. So, if they accept that one F-16 was downed by India then it is obvious that they violated the agreement. Hence, they'll be in trouble. 

2. It fell in Pakistani territory and not many people knew that initially. Those who saw the plane and the pilot assumed to be Indian. Unfortunately, they attacked the pilot who later passed away. By hiding this information, they can hide the shame as well as score a point over India. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

There could be 2 reasons of Pakistan denying about downed F-16:

1. F-16s, as per end user agreement with US manufacturers, can only be used for counter-terrorism. Even using it for drills requires informing the manufacturer in advance. So, if they accept that one F-16 was downed by India then it is obvious that they violated the agreement. Hence, they'll be in trouble. 

2. It fell in Pakistani territory and not many people knew that initially. Those who saw the plane and the pilot assumed to be Indian. Unfortunately, they attacked the pilot who later passed away. By hiding this information, they can hide the shame as well as score a point over India. 

Yeah those are 2 reasons why Pakistan would never admit F-16 was shot down.  Also there is another possibility, that it never happened in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am interested to hear what the Indian pilot says after he has been debriefed by the Indian military.  Of course Pakistanis will dismiss anything anti Pakistan as propaganda and I highly doubt he will have the freedom to speak freely even in India.  It will be interesting to see nonetheless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, King said:

I am interested to hear what the Indian pilot says after he has been debriefed by the Indian military.  Of course Pakistanis will dismiss anything anti Pakistan as propaganda and I highly doubt he will have the freedom to speak freely even in India.  It will be interesting to see nonetheless.

He didn't spoke directly to the media. 

https://www.ndtv.com/India-news/abhinandan-varthaman-says-went-through-mental-harassment-in-Pakistan-report-2001733

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 

26 minutes ago, King said:

This was out yesterday, it maybe true, it maybe not, there is no conclusive proof so it is just hearsay at this point.  There has been a lot of fake reporting from both sides.

 

19 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

2. It fell in Pakistani territory and not many people knew that initially. Those who saw the plane and the pilot assumed to be Indian. Unfortunately, they attacked the pilot who later passed away. By hiding this information, they can hide the shame as well as score a point over India. 

The source of this "news" is Khalid Umer who is basically a nobody. For those who don't know who is, he is another Tarek Fatah. For those who don't know who Tarek Fatah is, you can google him!

His claims have zero credibility. He is also an anti-Islam atheist and a denier of Pakistan.

That said, we should use some common sense in assessing the claim. Do you really think Pakistanis would "mistake" one of their own as being an Indian? The uniforms are very different and recognisable immediately. The name and the army tag is also printed on the uniform. In an extreme scenario, the pilot could always speak up and clarify before the matters got worse. This does not make any sense.

Again, we don't know whether a Pak jet was hit and/or downed, but speculation aside, so far we have seen no evidence to believe that that is the case.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, King said:

I am interested to hear what the Indian pilot says after he has been debriefed by the Indian military.  Of course Pakistanis will dismiss anything anti Pakistan as propaganda and I highly doubt he will have the freedom to speak freely even in India.  It will be interesting to see nonetheless.

Everything would be carefully choreographed. India has suffered an international PR disaster and they would not allow the pilot to make it any worse. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Marbles said:

Everything would be carefully choreographed. India has suffered an international PR disaster and they would not allow the pilot to make it any worse. 

What do you think about the 2 videos of Indian pilot. One was recorded when he was captured (sipping tea), other before getting released (edited video with 20 cuts). Was he forced with the statements? 

Edited by Sirius_Bright

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

What do you think about the 2 videos of Indian pilot. One was recorded when he was captured (sipping tea), other before getting released (edited video with 20 cuts). Was he forced with the statements? 

No one knows, I don't know why he would be forced to make those statements though as the chai video already portrayed the Pakistani army in a good light.  Anyway, all bets are off, we cannot trust what he will say in India either due to Indian military briefing him.  All we know for certain is that he was captured in Pakistan, treated for his injuries and then returned to India in one piece.

Edited by King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

What do you think about the 2 videos of Indian pilot. One was recorded when he was captured (sipping tea), other before getting released (edited video with 20 cuts). Was he forced with the statements? 

It is not unusual to edit long videos to cut out details and get to the point. But we don't know to what extent Abhinandan spoke his mind and what he was told to say. If he was forced to make statements he would have complied because he's a captive and wouldn't want to displease his captors.

When he's allowed to speak directly to the Indian media to tell his story in his own words, he'd be under intense pressure from his superiors to censor his thoughts.

But there is no doubt about one thing: he was treated quite well and looked after during the time he spent in Pakistan. You could tell that from his speech and body language. He'd have sounded very different if there had been any mistreatment or mental torture going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only 'proof' India has given so far is some kind of missile. If Pakistan used an F-16 in the dogfight, there will obviously be missile cartridges (if any were used). That doesn't mean the jet was also downed.

Why would Pakistan then lie about F-16s being used at all if they didn't lose one? Maybe because the US would be furious it used an F-16 without its permission?

Either way you look at it, there's maybe some possible evidence an F-16 was used, but none whatsoever that one was downed. In the age of social media, it's also nearly impossible to hide this kinda stuff. If we have people in a village capturing video of Abhinandan, surely there would be video of the Pakistani plane/pilot? These things aren't easy to cover up these days, and Pakistan's army is no NSA.

If nothing, the Indian army could release a snippet of the cameras on their own planes just to prove their point. The fact that they're willing to take a massive hit in the media and on the international stage shows that likely have no proof, because I'm sure the Modi government would be quite willing to override concerns about security just to release a few seconds of footage if it would help them save face. That, to me, makes it highly probable that the PAF lost no jets.

Either way, this whole thing about my country shot down your plane while yours couldn't do anything to us seems naive and childish to me. It reeks of pride in war. What is relevant, from an analytic standpoint, is that India will continue to suffer from negative PR if there's no real proof provided of a lost bird.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Marbles said:

But there is no doubt about one thing: he was treated quite well and looked after during the time he spent in Pakistan. You could tell that from his speech and body language. He'd have sounded very different if there had been any mistreatment or mental torture going on.

He was not physically tortured by Army due to Geneva conventions and international pressure and tensions. The second video seems dubious. He is an Indian and knows that he'll be soon getting released still badmouthed Indian media. I'm quite sure he didn't said everything by himself. 

Also, he won't be allowed to directly face Indian media for obvious reasons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Why would Pakistan then lie about it? Maybe because the US would be furious it used an F-16 without its permission?

F-16 have tracking devices that can't be disabled. US doesn't sell those jets without making sure it can track whenever they are used. Pak lying about it still won't prevent the manufacturer from finding out anyway. So IMO this argument is moot.

The missile shell that Indian media showed had a serial number printed on it, whose sale was traced back to Taiwan in 2009/2010. I posted about that in detail on the previous page. I don't get why India produced a missile shell as proof of the use (not downing) of an F-16 which could be easily verified by anyone with an internet connection.

That said, I'm eagerly and actively looking for evidence of the claim that a Pak jet (F-16 or any other) was shot down. I really do want to find out but there is no proof, only speculation. I agree Pak army couldn't have covered it up as the jet allegedly fell down in broad daylight in a populated area. Someone must have captured something, but no one has been able to trace anything online.

 

Edited by Marbles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Marbles said:

F-16 have tracking devices that can't be disabled. US doesn't sell those jets without making sure it can track whenever they are used. Pak lying about it still won't prevent the manufacturer from finding out anyway. So IMO this argument is moot.

The missile shell that Indian media showed had a serial number printed on it, whose sale was traced back to Taiwan in 2009/2010. I posted about that in detail on the previous page. I don't get why India produced a missile shell as proof of the use (not downing) of an F-16 which could be easily verified by anyone with an internet connection.

That said, I'm eagerly and actively looking for any evidence of the claim that a Pak jet (F-16 or any other) was shot down. I really do want to find out but there is no proof, only speculation. I agree Pak army couldn't have covered it up as the jet allegedly fell down in broad daylight in an inhabited areas. Someone must have captured something, but no one has been able to trace anything online.

Well, even if the US would find out, it's not like they'll take Pakistan to task about it publicly. If it did happen, on the public stage, I'd Pakistan would deny it and the US would remain mum while chastising Pakistan privately. And that more or less corroborates with what we've seen on the diplomatic stage so far. Either PAF didn't use one or didn't lose one and are now denying its use. Anything else, and India could reasonably have a case against the US as to why they didn't stop the F-16 from being used.

All these diplomatic considerations do also suggest PAF's claims of not using any F-16s is highly plausible. If we know about the trackers, I'm sure the PAF does, too. Unless some generally got too gung-ho, or really wanted to ensure air superiority via their use, they'd stick to other aircraft to avoid all this mess.

The Taiwan thing is interesting. Perhaps Pakistan bought them from Taiwan at a later date? Is the IAF that incompetent that they're submitting Taiwanese missiles as proof? How'd they even get pictures of a spent Taiwanese missile? This one is just bizarre. It raises a million questions in my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Marbles said:

F-16 have tracking devices that can't be disabled. US doesn't sell its those jets without making sure it can track it whenever they are used. Pak lying about it still won't prevent the manufacturer from finding out anyway. So IMO this argument is moot.

The planes were not used. The missile shell that they should had a serial number printed on it, whose sale was traced back to Taiwan in 2009/2010. I posted about that in detail on the previous page. I don't get why India used a missile shell as proof of the use (not downing) of an F-16 which could be easily verifiable by anyone with an internet connection.

That said, I'm eagerly and actively looking for any evidence of the claim that a Pak jet (F-16 or any other) was shot down. I really do want to find out but there is no proof, only speculation. I agree Pak army couldn't have covered it up as the jet allegedly fell down in broad daylight in an inhabited areas. Someone must have captured something, but no one has been able to trace anything online.

I don't see what the big deal is though.  Pakistani jets were on the way back at some point and couldn't just afford to spend the entire time dog fighting inside Indian territory.  If Indian jets were willing to cross onto the Pakistani side while Pakistani jets were on their way home then it is very possible a Pakistani jet could have been hit, as it was in a naturally disadvantaged and vulnerable position.  This is what dogfights are all about, whoever gets behind the other jet usually wins, even if the aircrafts are inferior and it doesn't require much skill on the pilots part.  So far India has presented 0 proof that F-16 was shot down, but it is not impossible for a Mig 21 to take down a F-16, it all depends on the positioning. 

In any case as Khadim said, this is all besides the point, India has already lost the PR battle and as days go on anything they come up with will not make an impact on the international scene as people just move onto other events.  What Pakistan did exceedingly well was to keep the world updated as all of this was transpiring live. 

Edited by King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

The Taiwan thing is interesting. Perhaps Pakistan bought them from Taiwan at a later date? Is the IAF that incompetent that they're submitting Taiwanese missiles as proof? How'd they even get pictures of a spent Taiwanese missile? This one is just bizarre. It raises a million questions in my head.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Pak has no weapons trade with Taiwan at all (because of relations with China), so it couldn't have come from Taiwan. I'm also not entirely sure about the mechanics of resale, but I don't think the terms allow resale of F-16 mounted AMRAAMs to third parties.

PAF has the capability of of mounting AMRAAMs on JF-17s after they purchased the cross-mounting platforms from Turkey a few years back. So if such a missile is fired, it does not conclusively proof the use of an F-16 (which is what India is claiming).

Either PAF fired AMRAAMs but tampered with the serial number so they could maintain deniability. Or Indians forged the evidence to prove the use of F-16s. Both scenarios seem far-fetched.

But there's something fishy going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mar. 02, 2019 | 04:11 PM

Pakistanis sign petition seeking Nobel Peace Prize for Imran Khan

Agence France Presse
ISLAMABAD: More than 300,000 people have signed online petitions calling for Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan to receive a Nobel Peace Prize after he freed an Indian pilot in a bid to defuse tensions with his country's arch-rival neighbor.

The capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman had become the focus of renewed hostilities between the nuclear-armed rivals which have alarmed the international community.

Tensions have soared since a suicide bombing in Kashmir last month claimed by Pakistan-based militants killed 40 Indian paramilitaries.

The hashtag #NobelPeaceForImranKhan began trending on Twitter on Thursday after Khan unexpectedly announced that the captured pilot would be released as a "peace gesture".

Abhinandan – whose MiG fighter was shot down a day earlier as he chased Pakistani jets over disputed Kashmir – was returned to India late Friday.

Two similarly-worded campaigns on the change.org platform launched by users in the U.K. and Pakistan called for Imran Khan to be nominated for next year's prize "for his peace efforts and dialogues in the Asian region on diverse conflicts".

They have gained more than 240,000 and 60,000 digital signatures respectively.

Pakistan's information minister Fawad Chaudhry Saturday also submitted a resolution in the country's parliament demanding Khan be given the award for his contribution to peace in the region.

"Imran Khan played a sagacious role in de-escalating tension between Pakistan and India," the resolution said.

In his speech announcing Abhinandan's release, Khan referred to the catastrophic consequences of nuclear war as he called for talks with New Delhi.

Thousands of people around the world are allowed to make nominations for the Peace Prize, including members of Parliament and government ministers, former laureates and some university professors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Authenticity of audio clip is not confirmed. However, I wish no terrorist are left in that area anymore. 

PS: Posted for Masood Azhar's brother's audio clip. 

Edited by Sirius_Bright

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

 

Authenticity of audio clip is not confirmed. However, I wish no terrorist are left in that area anymore. 

PS: Posted for Masood Azhar's brother's audio clip. 

This was out yesterday.  Firstly there is no proof it is authentic, and even if it is authentic it is no proof that even a single militant was killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, King said:

This was out yesterday.  Firstly there is no proof it is authentic, and even if it is authentic it is no proof that even a single militant was killed.

I'm not posting for scoring points, if you think like that. I want terrorists to be wiped out whether or not any Airstrikes was successful. 

There are many things that is getting reported by news channels. The latest being Masood Azhar is dead: Sources. But I don't post everything here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I'm not posting for scoring points, if you think like that. I want terrorists to be wiped out whether or not any Airstrikes was successful. 

There are many things that is getting reported by news channels. The latest being Masood Azhar is dead: Sources. But I don't post everything here. 

Everyone wants terrorists to be wiped out but surgical strikes are not always the best option, it depends on the situation.  Terrorists can live among the common people and a ton of civilians who are innocent.  For all we know they could have struck a madaresah with lots of children around.  If that was the case then they just have given birth to 100s of more terrorists.  This is why details are important, which India refuses to provide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, King said:

Everyone wants terrorists to be wiped out

Not everyone. 

30 minutes ago, King said:

If that was the case then they just have given birth to 100s of more terrorists

So how do you think terrorism should be cleaned without giving birth to 100s of more terrorists. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Not everyone. 

So how do you think terrorism should be cleaned without giving birth to 100s of more terrorists. 

Through social programs, addressing grievances, education and carefully conducted police/military operations that involve investigation and precision.  Just bombing so called terror regions has achieved nothing but given birth to thousands of more terrorists and further jeopardized public safety. 

Edited by King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, King said:

Through social programs, addressing grievances, education and carefully conducted police/military operations that involve investigation and precision.

Through social programs, really? All these big wig terrorists who spent their lives in teaching Ak47 and 72 virgins to generations will pay heed to these social programs? 

I agree with military operations which my neighbor failed big time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

So how do you think terrorism should be cleaned without giving birth to 100s of more terrorists

It's as clear as day that extremists and terrorists feed on injustice and oppression. Just look at Afghanistan and America's almost two-decades old war. There are no beds of roses to be had there and now they are trying to find a political solution. The vast numbers of militants which US war has created need to be reformed and somehow reintegrated into society, even if there are hardened terrorists who'd never come to the table. I'm afraid there are no shortcuts. 

By the same token the policies of the Indian govt have led to alienation in Kashmir over the years. That's why you get so many people willing to die. Calling them all Wahhabi terrorists muddies the waters and deflects from the ground realities out there.

Jihadists didn't cause alienation and unrest in Kashmir. They have used it to their advantage. If India wants to address the problem of terrorism it needs to settle with ordinary Kashmiri first. Extremists would lose support if that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1922270-protestor-1551625359-170-640x480.jpg.594a0c4f9e7552b13360d40d95cf2238.jpg

Quote

IAF air strike: Karnataka college professor forced to kneel, apologise for criticising BJP rhetoric

A professor at Dr.. PG Halakatti College of Engineering and Technology in Karnataka’s Vijaypura district was forced to kneel and apologise to activists of the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad on Saturday, for a Facebook post that allegedly criticised the Centre for creating war hysteria following the Indian Air Force strikes in Pakistan’s Balakot. Professor Sandeep Wathar also allegedly praised Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan, The Indian Express reported on Sunday.

“Who sounds more intelligent in all this?” Wathar had said regarding India-Pakistan tensions following the Balakot strike and the intrusion by Pakistani jets into India. “You…bhakts. You will [be] the reason for destruction of millions of lives if this tension escalates. BJP…absolutely zero shame.”

Wathar was made to kneel and apologise. “I won’t repeat it in future, forgive me for my Facebook post,” he is heard saying in a viral video.

“The professor has switched off his phone and is unreachable,” college principal VP Huggi said. “We will issue orders on Tuesday.”

https://scroll.in/latest/915223/iaf-air-strike-karnataka-college-professor-forced-to-kneel-apologise-for-criticising-bjp-rhetoric

 

Edited by Marbles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Which solely military operations have eradicated Islamist terrorists? Please give examples.

Military operations are one of the ways to do that. 

ISIS are not completely eradicated but they have lost almost all footprints. It was purely a military operation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Right wings are extremists. Being an Indian doesn't mean I agree with everything. 

I didn't think you would. 

This is to show how strong and influential the extreme right has become in India, thanks to Modi and his ideological brethren.

Leftist and saner voices are being shut down and labelled as traitorous whenever they question the official line.

Nationalistic jingoism will hurt the Indian society in the coming years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Marbles said:

It's as clear as day that extremists and terrorists feed on injustice and oppression... 

You know the situation of Pakistan better but Pakistan's unwillingness to contain terrorism is frustrating. This has been for decades now and it's hurting others. Be it social programs, sitting on the table or military action, do you see any progress or someone taking measures to tackle these nuisance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kashmiri Shia cleric:

Problems to be worsened in India, Pakistan war

http://en.abna24.com/news//problems-to-be-worsened-in-India-Pakistan-war_931533.html

March 3, 2019 - 7:02 PM News Code : 931533 Source : ABNA24Link: 
Problems to be worsened in India, Pakistan war
 

Hujjat al-Islam Sayyed Muhammad-Hadi al-Musawi al-Safawi, the president of Anjuman-e Shari’ Shi’ayan in Jammu and Kashmir, expressed regret over the tensions between India and Pakistan and the recent air strikes by both countries and said, “In the event of a war between India and Pakistan, the problems between the countries will be worsened.” 


Speaking to the public gathering in Imambargah Ayatullah Yusuf (رضي الله عنه) Bemina , the Kashmiri Shi’ah scholar said that both countries should end the tensions between them and find a peaceful solution to the problems through negotiations and added, “Both India and Pakistan are armed with nuclear weapons and both countries will be destroyed in the event of a nuclear strike. Therefore, its necessary to resolve mutual issues with delicacy.” 

Hujjat al-Islam al-Musawi al-Safawi said that today, the world will again realize that the problem of Kashmir is a very sensitive problem and if it’s not immediately resolved according to the wishes of the people, it can become a dangerous situation which will not only impact this region but rather the whole world will be affected.” 

His Eminence added, “In the present situation, the Indian media is working to fan the flames of war.” 

He said that due to the possibility of war, the people are afraid and continuous air patrols have crushed the spirits of the people of Kashmir. 

In other comments, Hujjat al-Islam al-Musawi al-Safawi condemned the ban on the Jamaat-e-Islami of Jammu and Kashmir by the government of India, saying, “Jamaat-e Islami is a leading and active party that has played a significant role in the social and educational fields and it’s a unfortunate step to ban it.” 

He said that the Hindu extremist groups, such as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), are targeting Muslims and Islamic religious symbols and impeding India’s religious tolerance. 

Hujjat al-Islam al-Musawi al-Safawi said that the ban on Jamaat-e-Islami has upset the feelings of the Kashmiri people and they are frustrated due to the situation. 

He appealed to the government of India to revise their decision. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

do you see any progress or someone taking measures to tackle these nuisance.

There has been a lot of progress since Musharraf as I noted earlier in the thread. But the speed was slow and not enough was done due to the worsening of situation in Pak due to war next door in Afghanistan. Contrary to popular Indian thinking, the top military brass isn't planning and ordering attacks across the border through anti-India militants to bleed India. Not only does it not help Pak's case, it damages their reputation and makes us look like troublemakers. But anti-India militant networks have been around for decades, deeply entrenched in society, and have formidable links across the LoC with Kashmiri separatists. They get a massive boost every time things go awry in Kashmir. They don't need Pak army's assistance to do what they do. But there has been a meaningful crackdown on them either due to internal political reasons. 

The crackdown on anti-Pakistan terrorists have paid huge dividends. Now it's about time to take stern action against those militant networks who use Pak soil to hurt the neighbouring countries.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1467524/govt-plans-decisive-crackdown-on-militant-outfits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...