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Muhammed-Ali

[Closed/Review]A serious, polite dialogue/debate requested

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14 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

No we shouldn’t lock it yet. Let’s hear him out, he is already supporter of the reviver  of terrorism, I want to want to know why what makes him think his righteous when his books are known to be barbaric....  and what are his back up. 

we had similar thread before that you can see that these type of person are just repeating their false ideas without reading or thinking about answers they pupose id just cause doubt & Fitna among others nothing more than this & at the end topic will close with posts that are full of insults to each user & already we responded to all of his questions but like as older topics like as it he doesn't give clear answer to all of them.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Fitna among others nothing more than this

There’s no fitna if his saying the truth, some people have a hard time accepting it. The will be no fitna amongst the Shi’a...so there’s no problem. 

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This is what I thought would happen, unfortunately. The discussion goes down into many directions without resolving any point. No wonder people are confused about this topic ??

If the OP would like to have a sincere discussion, I suggest sticking to one topic. Also, to the others who are posting on this thread, please don't take the topic OT, it will only confuse everyone. We should not move to the next point until the previous one is made, responded to by the OP, maybe a counter response is given, then a counter point by the op. 

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17 hours ago, Umm Amira said:

Not if you're salafi. Salafis wipe over the tops of their feet. I don't know about all the madhabs though

youre again mistaken, unfortunately. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/69761/is-it-obligatory-to-wash-the-feet-or-wipe-them-during-wudoo this is the link to the most salafi/wahhabi website you will find and they say washing is obligatory and merely wiping isnt sufficient. 

P.S. if you can’t see the link, google 'wiping over feet islamqa' and youll find the first link to their website.

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16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It approved by scholars that Arabic is their mother tongue & also learned advanced Arabic that Shia interpretation is completely true 

I did not ask him about his understanding of Arabic to prove the Shia view wrong. I asked him so that I could explain how the Sunni view of the ayah is justified, at the very least.

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Bring your prove but Sunni sources say it just started from time of third caliph

the most Sunni source youll get: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/69761/is-it-obligatory-to-wash-the-feet-or-wipe-them-during-wudoo

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2 minutes ago, just a Muslim said:

I did not ask him about his understanding of Arabic to prove the Shia view wrong. I asked him so that I could explain how the Sunni view of the ayah is justified, at the very least.

the most Sunni source youll get: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/69761/is-it-obligatory-to-wash-the-feet-or-wipe-them-during-wudoo

The Qur'an clearly says wipe. But those who shared the cows udders strictly among themselves made innovations and this was one of them because they thought it was a “good” innovation. There’s no way of twisting the word to support their innovation(s) even your scholars admit the Qur'an says wipe but “Sunnah” says wash but then the question arises which is authentic the Qur'an or “sunnah”..... 

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3 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

The Qur'an clearly says wipe. But those who shared the cows udders strictly among themselves made innovations and this was one of them because they thought it was a “good” innovation. There’s no way of twisting the word to support their innovation(s) even your scholars admit the Qur'an says wipe but “Sunnah” says wash but then the question arises which is authentic the Qur'an or “sunnah”..... 

do YOU understand Arabic? or are you just repeating what you have heard your scholars say?

I have yet to see any Sunni scholars who say that the Qur'an says wipe the feet and not wash them. and even if they do say so, it has nothing to do with me. I do not follow the scholars. I follow the daleel. and for me, the daleel is pretty clear and correct for washing and not wiping. this, however, does not mean that I believe wiping makes the wudu invalid. 

 

so, do you understand Arabic? simple question

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4 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

@just a Muslim

This article presents the arguments for wiping/washing. Comes down to grammar. Including the counter argument to the grammar alluding to washing

http://quransmessage.com/articles/washing-wiping FM3.htm 

I am well aware of these arguments akhi. I was asking if you were too.

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10 minutes ago, just a Muslim said:

do YOU understand Arabic? or are you just repeating what you have heard your scholars say?

I have yet to see any Sunni scholars who say that the Qur'an says wipe the feet and not wash them. and even if they do say so, it has nothing to do with me. I do not follow the scholars. I follow the daleel. and for me, the daleel is pretty clear and correct for washing and not wiping. this, however, does not mean that I believe wiping makes the wudu invalid. 

 

so, do you understand Arabic? simple question

No, but the MOST knowledgeable Sunni scholar on a Arabic literature says it’s wipe according to the Qurans grammar but in the “Sunnah” it’s wash. A suicide bomber will try to deceive people in grammar but fails to do so when the most knowledgeable Sunni admits that the Qur'an says “wipe” and not “wash”. U should ask Sunni scholars that believe the Qur'an says “wipe” why do they believe it. 

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Just now, Anonymous2144 said:

No, but the MOST knowledgeable Sunni scholar on a Arabic literature says it’s wipe according to the Qurans grammar but in the “Sunnah” it’s wash. A suicide bomber will try to deceive people in grammar but fails to do so when the most knowledgeable Sunni admits that the Qur'an says “wipe” and not “wash”. U should ask Sunni scholars that believe the Qur'an says “wipe” why do they believe it. 

provide the source where the most knowledgeable Sunni scholar says its wipe and not wash

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35 minutes ago, just a Muslim said:

provide the source where the most knowledgeable Sunni scholar says its wipe and not wash

watch from 20:42 to 29:39, the scholars name is mentioned 28:41 in Arabic. U can type down his name in Arabic an see his works.

this is video is very logical considering u know how to read Arabic. 

In English his name is doctor fadal samara’I 

Edited by Anonymous2144

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5 hours ago, Muhammed-Ali said:

Ok then why do you censure some of my links? Then how am I able to give links or shorter excerpts if people cannot find the original link, original text?

If I cannot give my links or share the whole text then it seems that I cannot participate fully

Links to anti-Shia websites is not allowed.

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I think there are enough discussion among Shia/Sunni on the subject of differences and there are documented proofs of those discussions that had happened earlier. 

Basic difference between Shia and Sunni is in Usul (root of religion) itself-

Shia doctrines believe in Tawhid (Oneness of Allah), Adl (Justice of Allah), Nubuwat (Prophethood), Imamah (Vicegerency) and Qayamat (Judgement Day)

whereas Sunni doctrines don't believe in Adl and Imamah 

49 minutes ago, just a Muslim said:

do YOU understand Arabic? or are you just repeating what you have heard your scholars say?

I have yet to see any Sunni scholars who say that the Qur'an says wipe the feet and not wash them. and even if they do say so, it has nothing to do with me. I do not follow the scholars. I follow the daleel. and for me, the daleel is pretty clear and correct for washing and not wiping. this, however, does not mean that I believe wiping makes the wudu invalid. 

 

You are asking others here to provide proof regarding wiping though Quranic verse in itself is enough proof that it is for wiping and not washing.

what is your daleel regarding the washing of feet and not head as both comes under same verb wa imsahu?

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21 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Why running away from a simple question by using a condescending tone.

You told Muslims -meaning- have to obey Allah and Rasul. I told you we agree, Rasul ordered Muslims to follow Ali. It is in your sources.

Why did Muslims not obey Rasul ? 

I think the shuttle Challenger  has crashed over its launching pad just traveling a few meters above it  :clap:

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 2/24/2019 at 2:12 AM, Muhammed-Ali said:

So what I seek is evidence for the Shia religion from the Qur'an. And from there on we let the debate take its course

Do you have evidence of Sunni religion in Qur'an ? evidence of Abu Bakr being khalifa in Qur'an? don’t just expect that everything will be in Qur'an. " Shia religion" if you name it is Islam and we believe in Panjatan ie, 
1. Allah

2. Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

3. Ali

4. Fatima

5. Hassan 

6. Hussain

other than that we believe in twelver they are Ahle bait. Ahle Bait means descendants of Hazrat Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). What is so difficult to believe in this? What is so difficult in believing what Prophet said at Ghader e khum? Didnt he cleared that Ali is Imam after me? then why Abu Bakr became khalifa? If you think that this should be mentioned in Qur'an then there is also no mention of Abu Bakr umer usman of being " Rightly guided caliphs " as well.

It is Allah’s wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (Qur’an 33:33)

"I am leaving among you two heavy trusts: The Book of Allah and my chosen descendants. So long as you adhere to them, you will never go astray. They will not be separated from each other till they come to me at the fountain."Hadith

https://www.al-Islam.org/man-and-universe-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/chapter-31-imamat-leadership

Do you believe in Imam Mahdi?

The Sahih of Muslim reports a tradition from Jabir b. ‘Abdullah: “I heard the Prophet saying: ‘A group of Pure ones from my Community will fight continuously for the Truth (Haqq) until the Day of Judgement.’ He said: ‘Then will descend ‘Isa ibn Maryam. And your Leader (Amir) will tell him: Come and lead the prayer for us. He will answer: No, for some of you are leaders of others, that is what God has granted to this Community.

The Sahih of Bukhari mentions a tradition reported by Abu Hurayra: “The Prophet said: ‘How will you react when the son of Mary (Jesus) descends among you while your Imam will be from among yourselves?’”

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10 hours ago, Muhammed-Ali said:

The existence in the abrogation of recitation is a commonly accepted view according to many Islamic scholars, even ones from outside the Sunni school. Jalal Al-Deen Al-Suyuti in his Al-Itqaan quotes several examples of this form. Such narrations usually include a companion saying, “We used to read such and such during the life of the Prophet.” When returning to the Qur’an, we do not find these verses within It. Scholars refer to such as an abrogation of verses.

Do u  believe that the abrogated verses are removed from the Qur'an? 

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It is Allah’s wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (Qur’an 33:33)

 

Aisha reported that Allah’s Apostle ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a stripped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hassan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hassan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, purify you (thorough purifying)

sahih Muslim 2424

in book reference: book 44, Hadith 91

USC-MSA web (English) reference: book 31, Hadith 5955

 

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My mom once said me that honey people who have bugze Ali in their hearts(hatred for Imam Ali nauzobilla) are like stone. No matter how much you convince them they wont belief because they are in midst of darkness and ignorance.

14) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “I am the warner, and the guide after me is Ali ((عليه السلام)).” Musnad Ahmad, 1/151; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/135; Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’I, 20; Kenz Al-Omal, 1/247; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 222.

 The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “For the one who believes and trusts in me, I recommend the wilayat of Ali ((عليه السلام)).” Al-Jami^ of Al-Suyuti, 1/230; Al-Riyadh Al-Nudhra, 2/168; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 1/316; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 49; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 266.

Hazrat Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Imam Ali that if he gives all the wealth of the world to his enemy his enemy will never turn into his( Hazrat Ali's) friend, and if he cuts his follower into pieces his follower will never turn back from him ( hazrat Ali)

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54 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Links to anti-Shia websites is not allowed.

Why there are anti Shia on the forum. If they can't copy paste large amounts. Then let them have links. 

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Just now, Warilla said:

Why there are anti Shia on the forum. If they can't copy paste large amounts. Then let them have links. 

Becaue they think the terrorism beliefs is the truth when their books says otherwise....but we will see were it go’s, my red button waiting is for the right moment. 

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2 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

 

It is Allah’s wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (Qur’an 33:33)

 

Aisha reported that Allah’s Apostle ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a stripped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hassan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hassan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, purify you (thorough purifying)

sahih Muslim 2424

in book reference: book 44, Hadith 91

USC-MSA web (English) reference: book 31, Hadith 5955

 

Hadith e kisa:

One day, my father the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his Household, visited me, "Peace be upon you, O Fatimah!" he said.

"Peace be upon you, too." I answered.

"I can feel some fatigue in my body," he said to me, and I answered, "I pray Allah to protect you O father against fatigue."

"Fatimah," he ordered, "bring me the Yemeni cloak and cover me with it."

I brought him the Yemeni cloak and covered him with it. I then kept on looking at his face, which was glittering like a moon at the night of its fullness and perfection.

No more than a while passed when my son al-Hasan came in, "Peace be upon you, mother!" he greeted.

"Peace be upon you, too, O delight of my eye and fruit of my heart!" I replied.

"O mother," he said, "I can smell a pleasing scent as if it is the scent of my grandfather the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his Household."

"Yes, it is," I answered, "Your grandfather is now under the cloak."

Al-Hasan moved towards the cloak and said, "Peace be upon you, O grandfather, Allah’s Messenger. Will you allow me to be with you under this cloak?"

My father replied, "Peace be upon you too, my son and director of my Pond. I allow you."Al-Hasan then went under the cloak with his grandfather

No more than a while passed when my son al-Hussain came in, "Peace be upon you, mother!" he greeted.

"Peace be upon you, too, O delight of my eye and fruit of my heart!" I replied.

"O mother," he said, "I can smell a pleasing scent as if it is the scent of my grandfather the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his Household."

"Yes, it is," I answered, "Your grandfather and your brother are now under the cloak."

Al-Hussain moved towards the cloak and said, "Peace be upon you, O grandfather, Allah’s Messenger. Will you allow me to be with you under this cloak?"

My father replied, "Peace be upon you too, my son and director of my Pond. I allow you."Al-Hussain then went under the cloak with his grandfather.

At the same time, Abu’l-Hasan `Ali ibn AbuTalib came in, "Peace be upon you, daughter of Allah’s Messenger," he greeted.

"Peace be upon you too, O Abu’l-Hasan and Commander of the Faithful," I replied.

He then said, "Fatimah, I can smell a pleasing scent, as if it is the scent of my brother and cousin the Messenger of Allah."

"Yes," I answered, "He is there with your two sons under the cloak."

`Ali moved towards the cloak and said, "Peace be upon you, O Allah’s Messenger! Will you allow me to be with you under the cloak?"

My father replied, "Peace be upon you too, O brother, successor, vicegerent, and bearer of my Pennon. I allow you."`Ali thus went with them under the cloak.

 

I then came towards the cloak and said, "Peace be upon you father, O Allah’s Messenger. Will you allow me to be with you under the cloak?"

My father replied, "Peace be upon you too, my daughter and part of my flesh. I allow you."   I thus went with them under the cloak.

Getting together underneath the cloak, my father, the Prophet of Allah, held the two ends of the cloak and raised his right hand towards the heavens and prayed :
"O Allah, these are the people of my Household (Ahlul-Bayt). They are my confidants and my supporters.
Their flesh is my flesh and their blood is my blood.
Whoever hurts them, hurts me too.
Whoever displeases them, displeased me too.
I am at war with those at war with them.
I am at peace with those at peace with them.
I am the enemies of their enemies and
I am the friend of their friends.
They are from me and I am from them.
O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me 
and upon them. And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure"


Then the Lord, Almighty Allah said :"O My angels! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched Earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, but for the love of these Five lying underneath the cloak"

Gabriel the Honest Archangel asked, "O my Lord! Who are those under the cloak?"

The Almighty and All-majestic Lord answered, "They are the household of Prophethood and the core of the Message. They are namely Fatimah, her father, her husband, and her sons."

"O my Lord," Gabriel asked, "Will You allow me to descend to the Earth to be the sixth of them?"

Allah the Almighty and All-majestic said, "Yes, I allow you."

Gabriel the Honest Archangel descended, "Peace be upon you, O Allah’s Messenger!" he greeted, "The Most High and All-high (Lord) conveys to you His greeting, expresses His special greeting and honoring to you, and says, ‘By My Almightiness and My Majesty I take this oath: I have not created any well-established sky, extended land, glowing moon, shining sun, revolving planet, flowing ocean, or moving on ark except for your sake and for your love.’ He has then allowed me to join you (under this cloak). Will you, O Allah’s Messenger, allow me?"

Allah’s Messenger said, "Peace be upon you, O trustee of Allah’s Revelations. Yes, I allow you."

So, Gabriel joined us under the cloak. He thus said to my father, "Allah has revealed to you saying, ‘Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House, and to purify you a thorough purifying.’"

Ali then said to my father, "O Allah’s Messenger! Please tell me; what is the value of this gathering of us under this cloak in the sight of Allah?"

The Prophet, peace be upon him and his Household, said, "I swear this by Him Who has sent me with the truth as Prophet and chosen me, as holding communion, to convey the Message; whenever the tale of this gathering of us is mentioned in an assembly of the people of the Earth in which a group of our adherents and lover are present, the (divine) mercy shall certainly be poured down on them and the angels shall certainly surround them, asking forgiveness for them until they depart."

`Ali, peace be upon him, commented, "Then, by Allah I swear it; we have won. So have our adherents. I swear it by the Lord of the Ka`bah."

"O `Ali!" my father Allah’s Messenger, peace be upon him and his Household, added, "I swear this by Him Who has sent me with the truth as Prophet and chosen me, as holding communion, to convey the Message; whenever the tale of this gathering of us is mentioned in an assembly of the people of the Earth in which a group of our adherents and lover are present and among them there is a distressed one, Almighty Allah shall certainly release him from distress, or there is among them an aggrieved one, Almighty Allah shall certainly relieve him from grief, or there is among them one who needs a request to be granted, Almighty Allah shall certainly grant him his request."

`Ali, peace be upon him, said, "Then, we have won and attained pleasure. I swear it by Allah. So have our adherents; they have won and attained pleasure in this world and in the Hereafter. I swear it by the Lord of the Ka`bah."

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Becaue they think the terrorism beliefs is the truth when their books says otherwise....but we will see were it go’s, my red button waiting is for the right moment. 

Hmm if it's terrorist risk then for safety I understand 

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7 hours ago, Muhammed-Ali said:

Ok then why do you censure some of my links? Then how am I able to give links or shorter excerpts if people cannot find the original link, original text?

If I cannot give my links or share the whole text then it seems that I cannot participate fully

Certain anti-Shia websites (especially the ones with deceptive names), are automatically censured because ShiaChat doesn't want to increase their site traffic.

However, you are free to link to other sites or post short excerpts from anywhere directly here. Long copy/paste is not allowed. That sounds like common sense and ettiquete. Imagine doing that on a university paper.

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