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Mohamed1993

Philanthropy vs. Taxation

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11 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Two people agreed to a contract voluntarily, one of them agreed to be paid a certain amount for a certain period of time. How is that stealing? 

"Voluntarily" is open to interpretation. Do you think children in sweatshops in third world countries would work those jobs voluntarily, or does desperation bring them to it? Do you think the majority of Walmart employees are there because they enjoy the work? 

Further, do you believe people should be rewarded justly for the result of their labor? Who works harder, a typical Amazon employee, or Jeff Bezos? And does that individual work a billion times harder?

I'm not opposed to capitalism. I'm opposed to feudalism. 

11 hours ago, Sumerian said:

When you say everyone has a right to certain things, that means someone has to provide it for free. Why can't it be the case that they have to work for those things like everybody else? 

Yes, people have a right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", regardless of their poor choices in life. 

If you want more than that, and you are able, you will work. If you are satisfied with only remaining alive, having options to improve your situation (but not taking them), and being content with what you are and have accomplished (even if nothing), that's ok too. 

Look, automation is happening. Fewer and fewer workers are going to be needed. Are you advocating taking steps to reduce the human population, or are you simply content to watch others suffer as long as it isn't you? What happened to wanting for your brother what you would want for yourself? Have you ever been unemployed, poor, and desperate? I suspect you aren't cruel, you just have no idea. 

11 hours ago, Sumerian said:

That supposes that stealing is a right, which it isn't. The first step is to define what is a right.

Ok good. I propose that either there are no innate rights, or everything which can be done is a right. Can you justify another position? 

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6 hours ago, notme said:

"Voluntarily" is open to interpretation. Do you think children in sweatshops in third world countries would work those jobs voluntarily, or does desperation bring them to it? Do you think the majority of Walmart employees are there because they enjoy the work? 

Further, do you believe people should be rewarded justly for the result of their labor? Who works harder, a typical Amazon employee, or Jeff Bezos? And does that individual work a billion times harder?

I'm not opposed to capitalism. I'm opposed to feudalism. 

Sure, desperation affects life choices, that doesn't make them any less voluntary.

People should be justly rewarded for their labour, but they should own the price of their own labour and dictate the price of their own labour, not have the Government dictate it for them. Say I was to replace someone's damaged window, me and him agreed on an extremely low amount, around $10. What is wrong with that? I, myself, agreed to this low amount for my own labour. My choice. He never forced me to do the job for $10.

6 hours ago, notme said:

Yes, people have a right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", regardless of their poor choices in life. 

If you want more than that, and you are able, you will work. If you are satisfied with only remaining alive, having options to improve your situation (but not taking them), and being content with what you are and have accomplished (even if nothing), that's ok too. 

Look, automation is happening. Fewer and fewer workers are going to be needed. Are you advocating taking steps to reduce the human population, or are you simply content to watch others suffer as long as it isn't you? What happened to wanting for your brother what you would want for yourself? Have you ever been unemployed, poor, and desperate? I suspect you aren't cruel, you just have no idea. 

Nothing in that quote means you have a right to shelter or education or any of the stuff you mentioned. 

Keep in mind I believe in universal basic income and certain welfare programs, I just don't believe someone else should be forced to pay for it out of their yearly income, unvoluntarily, when it isn't even surplus wealth for them. That couple thousand dollars which got taxed, could have been kept for their own good and for their family.

There are many countries with extremely low to no taxation but have great welfare programs. It is not a case of high taxation which makes these things affordable, it is a case of smart governance and smart spending. 

Would it not make more sense to give people more incentives to work, then to just hand out welfare packages? 

And yes I know of desperate people, many, just recently a friend of mine who doesn't study and hasn't worked since high school ended, his father threatened to kick him out unless he found a job. He also got himself in a heap of trouble and was in debt with countless fines. I personally helped him and got him a job as a labourer in a construction business, alhamdulillah as far as I know he is okay now.

So if you are asking how to help people, I say it is to make them work.

6 hours ago, notme said:

Ok good. I propose that either there are no innate rights, or everything which can be done is a right. Can you justify another position? 

There are some innate rights. Like right to life, right to property.

8 hours ago, Reza said:

Your country for one.

Those tend to be Gov officials.

Edited by Sumerian

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14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

There are some innate rights. Like right to life, right to property.

Why? 

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18 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

There are some innate rights. Like right to life, right to property.

Right to property is very different from other fundamental rights universally agreed upon.  Its interpretation and the extent to which it is applied will always remain the contentious issue. 

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30 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 Sure, desperation affects life choices, that doesn't make them any less voluntary.

That is debatable. 

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31 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

So if you are asking how to help people, I say it is to make them work.

I don't disagree with this. Creating guaranteed jobs is a great idea. Almost every self-respecting person wants to work and contribute to society. But it's not really economically sustainable as a permanent solution. Eventually the jobs be a bigger cost than simply supporting the population. If a nation can afford that through taxation, great. 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

I don't disagree with this. Creating guaranteed jobs is a great idea. Almost every self-respecting person wants to work and contribute to society. But it's not really economically sustainable as a permanent solution. Eventually the jobs be a bigger cost than simply supporting the population. If a nation can afford that through taxation, great. 

I think nations use taxation because it is the simple way out in supporting the population. I think instead of governments providing job benefits, it is not unreasonable to regulate registered businesses to make them pay for it instead, for example. This is what happens in Switzerland.

This means that Bob doesn't pay for John's vacation benefits when he has never seen John, rather John's boss would. It doesn't make sense that Bob would pay it. 

While John's boss has instead agreed to the rules in place when he started the business, one of which is to provide benefits for his employees. 

Not only is it more efficient imo, it is more moral than taxation.

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22 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

It's not starvation when I see welfare mom buying lobster and steak on link card when I cannot spend more than my food budget when I work 60 hrs a week

And how many times do I have to admit this patient for " panic attacks " ? Free night , free meals every time 

I cannot imagine to have 3 kids as I cannot pay for their good education but someone lot poorer than me is popping out a kid every yr, food is paid , section 8 housing thrift stores clothes, spending money by selling food stamps etc etc 

It's not fair 

In a world of automation reproduction should be a privilege not a right , if you cannot afford to have kids get sterilized for free 

This altruism fatigue is what is driving my  hostility towards Democrats In my humble opinion 

Some people on welfare honestly do struggle

and some good people get off EVEN when they actually need

trust me I know

so don’t put all in a box, certainly there are many that are bad. But that just means that their character 

3 kids is not easy either, what if it’s legitimate? And what if they are trapped in a marriage, and at the whims of the of one partner?(like for immigrants, well maybe that’s a specific situation that may not be common)

I’ve  never heard of those ways of taking advantage wow 

in the end we shouldn’t get angry and jealous at them, lord knows how that doenst help. We should strive harder and pray Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) betters our situation

Edited by Ralvi

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Not only Is it more efficient imo, it is more moral than taxation.

There is nothing immoral about the concept of taxation, though it would be immoral if abused or wasted, such as on unwanted military activities or border walls. The government provides services. These services aren't free. Do you know how much highways cost to design, build, and maintain? How about bridges, postal services, food inspections, air traffic controls, schools, parks.... and more. If not taxes, how do you propose governments pay for these services? Or do you think we should just go without? 

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7 minutes ago, notme said:

There is nothing immoral about the concept of taxation, though it would be immoral if abused or wasted, such as on unwanted military activities or border walls. The government provides services. These services aren't free. Do you know how much highways cost to design, build, and maintain? How about bridges, postal services, food inspections, air traffic controls, schools, parks.... and more. If not taxes, how do you propose governments pay for these services? Or do you think we should just go without? 

I think taxing personal annual income is immoral. I like what Islam does, which is tax surplus wealth. 

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14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I think taxing personal annual income is immoral. I like what Islam does, which is tax surplus wealth. 

That's fine, but it's still taxation. 

Actually, it's superior to income tax, but difficult to verify. If people are dishonest, it would be easier to evade than income tax, since businesses all keep records of payroll.

Tax deductions are meant to account for living expenses. 

Edited by notme

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

That's fine, but it's still taxation. 

Actually, it's superior to income tax, but difficult to verify. If people are dishonest, it would be easier to evade than income tax, since businesses all keep records of payroll.

Tax deductions are meant to account for living expenses. 

What I like about it is that it is basically voluntary, unless the authorities find out it is being held away (a Bezos can't get away with no paying khums).

In a sense it is a charity, and millions of Shi'a give out khums on a voluntary basis each year. 

This to me is superior to the current format installed today.

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11 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

What I like about it is that it is basically voluntary, unless the authorities find out it is being held away (a Bezos can't get away with no paying khums).

In a sense it is a charity, and millions of Shi'a give out khums on a voluntary basis each year. 

This to me is superior to the current format installed today.

Voluntary taxes would be great if all people were honest. Unfortunately, as I stated in my first post in this topic, generosity almost always has an inverse correlation with wealth. 

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3 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Some people on welfare honestly do struggle

and some good people get off EVEN when they actually need

trust me I know

so don’t put all in a box, certainly there are many that are bad. But that just means that their character 

3 kids is not easy either, what if it’s legitimate? And what if they are trapped in a marriage, and at the whims of the of one partner?(like for immigrants, well maybe that’s a specific situation that may not be common)

I’ve  never heard of those ways of taking advantage wow 

in the end we shouldn’t get angry and jealous at them, lord knows how that doenst help. We should strive harder and pray Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) betters our situation

Not everyone on welfare is living the dream I get it brother 

Oh trust me I hear so many of my staff and patients brag about it all the time and they act like its their right! Then I see so many hard working middle class Americans of all ethnicities right here in Chicago sacrifice so much , work 3 jobs to give their 1 or 2 kids a chance at better life.They do it as they are too proud to depend on handouts and want to set a good example for their kids.I have nothing against single WORKING moms either , they really have a hard life.

....3 kids that you cannot feed clothe and educate is NEVER legitimate I don't care if the pope or ayatollah married the parents 

Praying helps but so does voting for better policies 

Republicans are no lily faced innocent choir boys either , but sometimes enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Voluntary taxes would be great if all people were honest. Unfortunately, as I stated in my first post in this topic, generosity almost always has an inverse correlation with wealth. 

Agreed ! Similarly a welfare state is a great concept too if all citizens are prepared to acknowledge their responsibilities, work hard and not get dependent on handouts and abuse the generosity of state.Which more often than not robs peter to pay Paul in the name of social justice and in the guise of taxes.

Inverse relationship of generosity to wealth is not a definite rule, it's far easier to be generous with other peoples money.But you betcha I don’t pay that extra dollar to st judes hosp when they ask for it with my McDonalds coffee.

Btw border control is not a waste of taxes by any means , yes we can debate how it is done but when some " refugees " come to this country to take advantage of kind heartedness and generosity and sense of guilt of some Americans then we must find a way to limit this 

E.g my nepali refugee patients get 100 % free health  care , food housing 

The middle aged white roofer who works his a$$ off his deductible is so high he is delaying his stress test of his heart for months. ..he voted Trump can u blame him ?

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Not everyone on welfare is living the dream I get it brother 

Oh trust me I hear so many of my staff and patients brag about it all the time and they act like its their right! Then I see so many hard working middle class Americans of all ethnicities right here in Chicago sacrifice so much , work 3 jobs to give their 1 or 2 kids a chance at better life.They do it as they are too proud to depend on handouts and want to set a good example for their kids.I have nothing against single WORKING moms either , they really have a hard life.

....3 kids that you cannot feed clothe and educate is NEVER legitimate I don't care if the pope or ayatollah married the parents 

Praying helps but so does voting for better policies 

Republicans are no lily faced innocent choir boys either , but sometimes enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Yeah I know what you mean, and I hope this country gets better with that 

I know of a young girl who was married off to come to America for her education. Guess what happens? He immediately knocked her up. She was only 15. What skills does a child have to work at that age? And then he got her pregnant several times after. And then was failing to provide for her opting to help his family abroad instead.

she has no choice but separate and struggle. Also because of domestic violence as well

In that case isn’t it compelelty legitimate? Many young girls get knocked up and left to fend for themselves, not speaking a lick of English or any skills 

but people look at families like hers with disdain despite not knowing the horrors and fears she faces.

it happens a lot, especially with immigrants etc

She got off of food stamps despite having several young children, because she had her pride and decided to work that much harder. Didn’t really work out, they are still really poor. Some people just don’t get improvements in life... maybe a lifelong struggle is a part of their story.. who knows

anyway, keep in mind Iam excluding those who purposely get pregnant and never rehabilitate themselves and all those other disgraceful people who mooch off

Edited by Ralvi

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