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Mohamed1993

Philanthropy vs. Taxation

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Do you think it is more effective to tax the wealthy more, or to rely on philanthropic schemes to help improve the quality of life for the underprivileged. Many criticisms have been made of organizations like USAID, the World Bank and the Gates foundation, in that they tend to do more harm than good at times and that some of these wealthy foundations are just a means to portray a better image to the world rather than actually solving problems. People make the argument that you would not have billionaires had it not been for tax evasion and exploitation, and so these billionaires even if they donate billions to charitable causes and start foundations, they are still holding on to billions and hoarding wealth they don't deserve. On the other hand, if you propose taxing people and say you impose very strict monitoring mechanisms that make tax evasion very difficult, the government might be able to recover money in taxes. But then aren't you still relying on the goodwill of government officials to do things that benefit their own populations? The gates foundation for example, has helped millions of people around the world, would such outcomes be possible if that money was spent instead on taxes? Would it be better? 

Many of the left argue that billionaires shouldn't exist and these philanthropy schemes are at best, inefficient and at worst, a sham. But the question is would paying taxes not create the same issues? Governments are run by the same corrupt humans. On a related note, what do you think about organizations like the IMF and the World Bank? Many oppose the IMF because of the conditions it imposes when it loans out money to a country. But if such conditions are not imposed, then how is the IMF able to recover its money and ensure that the money does not go toward inefficient projects, etc. I can understand the criticisms people have that the IMF imposes structural adjustment policies on governments that hurt its poor and vulnerable populations. But what here is the alternative to prevent governments from spending on things beyond their capacity? A government also always has the option to not borrow from these institutions but they often choose to because of a lack of alternatives, but in such a case then how such a lender provide assistance yet not do so in a way that compromises its own interests?  

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Tax the super wealthy billionaries

Tax the religious institutions

Tax big land holders

Tax celebraties , sports and entertainers more than people who are in sciences humanities STEm fields 

Tax people with > 3 kids who are on Medicaid 

Save money by making prisons truly hell on Earth 

Tax alcohol,  sweet beverages , fatty food a lot more 

Start "labor camps"  for those who are relatively healthy and refuse to work and have  Multiple kids

Eliminate bankruptcy laws, cannot get out of debt unless its medical expenses 

but do NOT repeat not   increase taxes on people with annual household income under 350k :angry:

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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35 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

but do NOT repeat not   increase taxes on people with annual household income under 350k :angry:

Why this amount? Why not 250 or 500? 

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Govt are already all powerful in an age of nation state 

The best option is to ally your interests with those of state but for that you need to avoid a demographic disaster like what is happening in Europe otherwise your voice will be drowned out in parliamentary democracy system 

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

So government power is good?

No. Government is a necessary evil for the purpose of maintaining order in society and providing for the common good. Our job as citizens is to ensure that no individual in the government has too much power. We do that through democracy or revolutions.

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22 minutes ago, notme said:

No. Government is a necessary evil for the purpose of maintaining order in society and providing for the common good. Our job as citizens is to ensure that no individual in the government has too much power. We do that through democracy or revolutions.

Democracy isn't a check on how big the government is, the constitution is. It is theoretically possible to elect a big government that runs all aspects of society, and that government can theoretically be supported by most of the population. 

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46 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Democracy isn't a check on how big the government is, the constitution is. It is theoretically possible to elect a big government that runs all aspects of society, and that government can theoretically be supported by most of the population. 

Big government distributes the power, but is inefficient and expensive. I'm not opposed to it in theory. I'm opposed to the concentration of power in a few individuals. Efficiency does need to be considered, but isn't my primary worry. 

Taxation should be low for low and middle income people, higher for high income people and corporations, and very high for millionaires and billionaires. Government in a first world country should do everything in its power to insure access to education, healthy and safe food, modern medical care, and housing for all its citizens and legal residents. 

There is absolutely no reason for billionaires to exist. 

Edited by notme
Typo.

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Just now, notme said:

Big government distributes the power, but is inefficient and expensive. I'm not opposed to it in theory. I'm opposed to the concentration of power in a few individuals. Efficiency does need to be considered, but isn't my primary worry. 

Big government usually means a big security and military and intelligence apparatus. Even if you mean simply big government in the economic sense, how is that moral? It means that your labour and work is restricted and perhaps owned by the state. It means that a third party is always involved in your life, even if it is a small business transaction. That, imo, means less freedom.

10 minutes ago, notme said:

Taxation should be low for low and middle income people, higher for high income people and corporations, and very high for millionaires and billionaires. Government in a first world country should do everything in it's power to insure access to education, healthy and safe food, modern medical care, and housing for all its citizens and legal residents. 

Let me ask a question. Why should taxation exist at all? Keep in mind I believe in taxation - because Islam does - but I just want to know why you believe it should exist on anyone.

12 minutes ago, notme said:

There is absolutely no reason for billionaires to exist. 

Why is that? A billionaire can simply be someone who started with a small company that got bigger. 

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24 minutes ago, notme said:

Big government distributes the power, but is inefficient and expensive. I'm not opposed to it in theory. I'm opposed to the concentration of power in a few individuals. Efficiency does need to be considered, but isn't my primary worry. 

Taxation should be low for low and middle income people, higher for high income people and corporations, and very high for millionaires and billionaires. Government in a first world country should do everything in its power to insure access to education, healthy and safe food, modern medical care, and housing for all its citizens and legal residents. 

There is absolutely no reason for billionaires to exist. 

Citizens have some responsibility too 

If they don’t work,  commit crime or increase liabilities for state( lots of kids they cannot take care of)  their rights should be curtailed as well 

Poverty should be eradicated by eliminating the reasons for it not by merely transferring the fruits of labor of hard workers to the lazy ones.This is the evil side of socialism but not all socialist endeavors are evil 

We should also be afraid of tyranny of the majority 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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8 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Big government usually means a big security and military and intelligence apparatus. Even if you mean simply big government in the economic sense, how is that moral? It means that your labour and work is restricted and perhaps owned by the state. It means that a third party is always involved in your life, even if it is a small business transaction. That, imo, means less freedom.

Let me ask a question. Why should taxation exist at all? Keep in mind I believe in taxation - because Islam does - but I just want to know why you believe it should exist on anyone.

Why is that? A billionaire can simply be someone who started with a small company that got bigger. 

Without a big government you are asking for a return to fiefdoms and tribalism where the biggest richest warlord is the mafia don of his area ..

Big national govt can be an equalizer 

Without govt,  walgreens hired goons can come beat you up and close your friendly neighborhood pharmacy...

Similarly walmart crack troops can attack and break up every farmers market 

State protects against that 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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25 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

It means that a third party is always involved in your life, even if it is a small business transaction. That, imo, means less freedom.

Accepting a government means accepting less freedom. Heck, accepting a religion means accepting less freedom. Sometimes it's beneficial for the most people to take some freedoms away from some people so that everyone can be guaranteed certain rights that we, as a society, value. 

27 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Let me ask a question. Why should taxation exist at all? Keep in mind I believe in taxation - because Islam does - but I just want to know why you believe it should exist on anyone.

Taxation exists so that the government can pay for goods and services for the common benefit, such as education, roads, telecommunication, military, and other government services. And also to feed, house, and care for the poor, sick, and orphaned. In an ideal society, everyone would contribute voluntarily for the common good, but we aren't going to live in an ideal society until our Imam returns, and as I mentioned before, the people who are able to contribute the most usually contribute the least. Therefore, taxes. 

31 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Why is that? A billionaire can simply be someone who started with a small company that got bigger. 

I don't think you understand how much a billion dollars is. It is not possible for a person to work and earn that much. This insane amount of money only comes from robbing it from others. If you earned $1000 every day, it would take you about 3000 years to earn a billion dollars. 

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37 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Citizens have some responsibility too 

If they don’t work,  commit crime or increase liabilities for state( lots of kids they cannot take care of)  their rights should be curtailed as well 

Poverty should be eradicated by eliminating the reasons for it not by merely transferring the fruits of labor of hard workers to the lazy ones.This is the evil side of socialism but not all socialist endeavors are evil 

Nobody in a first world country should starve or go without shelter or necessary medical care. No child should be denied an education due to the shortcomings of his parents. I'm in favor of ensuring a basic living standard for all. The people who want more than a basic standard and are able to work will work. We aren't going to have a labor shortage - automation is progressing. But people still need to live. 

And if basic needs have been met, we can eliminate the minimum wage, which should benefit small businesses and stimulate the economy. 

38 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

We should also be afraid of tyranny of the majority 

Agreed. 

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13 minutes ago, notme said:

Nobody in a first world country should starve or go without shelter or necessary medical care. No child should be denied an education due to the shortcomings of his parents. I'm in favor of ensuring a basic living standard for all. The people who want more than a basic standard and are able to work will work. We aren't going to have a labor shortage - automation is progressing. But people still need to live. 

And if basic needs have been met, we can eliminate the minimum wage, which should benefit small businesses and stimulate the economy. 

Agreed. 

It's not starvation when I see welfare mom buying lobster and steak on link card when I cannot spend more than my food budget when I work 60 hrs a week

And how many times do I have to admit this patient for " panic attacks " ? Free night , free meals every time 

I cannot imagine to have 3 kids as I cannot pay for their good education but someone lot poorer than me is popping out a kid every yr, food is paid , section 8 housing thrift stores clothes, spending money by selling food stamps etc etc 

It's not fair 

In a world of automation reproduction should be a privilege not a right , if you cannot afford to have kids get sterilized for free 

This altruism fatigue is what is driving my  hostility towards Democrats In my humble opinion 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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24 minutes ago, notme said:

Accepting a government means accepting less freedom. Heck, accepting a religion means accepting less freedom. Sometimes it's beneficial for the most people to take some freedoms away from some people so that everyone can be guaranteed certain rights that we, as a society, value. 

I don't agree with this. Do you have an example where taking people's rights is beneficial to give other people rights?

26 minutes ago, notme said:

Taxation exists so that the government can pay for goods and services for the common benefit, such as education, roads, telecommunication, military, and other government services. And also to feed, house, and care for the poor, sick, and orphaned. In an ideal society, everyone would contribute voluntarily for the common good, but we aren't going to live in an ideal society until our Imam returns, and as I mentioned before, the people who are able to contribute the most usually contribute the least. Therefore, taxes. 

So basically it is a mechanism in which people are forced to pay for other people? Let me ask you, is it moral for me - a full time worker - to pay for someone else who lives on welfare and doesn't wish to work? Why should someone be rewarded for doing nothing?

And the government is allowed to initiate force against someone who wishes to not pay for someone else?

Speaking of the Imam (عليه السلام) returning, I guess it would make sense to explain the Islamic tax. The Islamic tax - which most of us are subjected to - is khums, and khums is more of a capital gains tax and a property tax than an income tax, because you are not taking 20% of your annual income, you are taking 20% of your surplus gains for that year. 

So there is very little taxation in Islam.

You can read the rulings here;

https://www.Sistani.org/english/book/48/2286/

39 minutes ago, notme said:

 

I don't think you understand how much a billion dollars is. It is not possible for a person to work and earn that much. This insane amount of money only comes from robbing it from others. If you earned $1000 every day, it would take you about 3000 years to earn a billion dollars. 

No, I understand that. Some people earn millions a day. Who did they steal from to make this money? 

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2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Who did they steal from to make this money

Probably the people who work for them.

3 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

So basically it is a mechanism in which people are forced to pay for other people? Let me ask you, is it moral for me - a full time worker - to pay for someone else who lives on welfare and doesn't wish to work?

Yes, pretty much. Don't we already do that, but also fund a bunch of millionaire and billionaire businessmen in their mercenary contracts and perpetual military activities. I don't think anyone in a first world country should have to go without food, education, shelter, or healthcare. If they want more, they will work. 

 

6 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I don't agree with this. Do you have an example where taking people's rights is beneficial to give other people rights?

Sure. Government has instituted a law which makes it illegal to steal. Even if I really want it and have the power to take it, I do not have a right to usurp my neighbor's right to their property. 

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

Probably the people who work for them.

How is that stealing? Two people agreed to a contract voluntarily, one of them agreed to be paid a certain amount for a certain period of time. How is that stealing? 

5 minutes ago, notme said:

Yes, pretty much. Don't we already do that, but also fund a bunch of millionaire and billionaire businessmen in their mercenary contracts and perpetual military activities. I don't think anyone in a first world country should have to go without food, education, shelter, or healthcare. If they want more, they will work. 

Well I am not speaking about what we do or what people do, I'm speaking about the ideal. When you say everyone has a right to certain things, that means someone has to provide it for free. Why can't it be the case that they have to work for those things like everybody else? 

10 minutes ago, notme said:

Sure. Government has instituted a law which makes it illegal to steal. Even if I really want it and have the power to take it, I do not have a right to usurp my neighbor's right to their property. 

That supposes that stealing is a right, which it isn't. The first step is to define what is a right.

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