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NASRULLAH ALI

WHY TABOOT AND ALAM IN Shia ASHURKHANA

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11 hours ago, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive it.

And even if the majority don’t. The fact that they have rituals not from the Prophet means that the boundaries can keep getting pushed. It goes from not it not shirk this our niyat all the way to what you described.

 

 

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Imam Ali stood on the Prophets shoulders to smash the last idol.

If you are a follower of Imam Ali read his life and words and then think to yourself would he approve of "his" Shia.

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12 hours ago, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive It.

You must have your metal health checked if you really think that they believe the horse is going to listen to their "dau" or even understand what they're saying. 

What would be they saying to horse??? Enlighten us with more of your assumptions. It your shirk-mania that forces you to believe that believers will ask from a zuljanah their needs. 

I advise you to think positively, Whenever I see Zuljanah, I always think about its rider. And it is the very reason why you see the shabeeh of Zuljanah in Azadari processions, to reminds us the rider. A replica of injured horse is not our mowla, its very sad that we need to remind you this again & again. 

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5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

What makes you so sure that what you believe is right and what your brothers are doing is wrong, bid'ah and shirk? 

This is precisely the reason why we need to act according to the divine judgement. Because we all have our own definition of right/wrong and good/bad. And that has been my message in this thread, that until we haven't had divine judgement on these new acts that we've introduced into our communities, there's no way of knowing whether they're accepted or not.

Let me put it another way. There's a 50/50 chance that the new act is seen as good or bad. Until the divine eyes don't tell us, we won't know for sure. Surely it's better to play it safe than sorry.

The second problem is with limits. People transgress the limits be it with or without ignorance.

The third problem is with extremes. People are constantly pushing the extremes in their acts, which then becomes normal. Til they push it to a new extreme and the cycle continues.

The fourth problem is perception. Am I doing justice to the religion for which I'm an ambassador.

All this then leads to further disunity we have in our communities with groups bashing and labelling one another.

So my stance is simple; Stick to what's been prescribed. Religion is not our playground for us to do anything we like. Is a very serious matter and we need to be careful what we endorse.

Fi Amanillah

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And how can one find that what is prescribed? 

Either gain knowledge of Qur'an and hadith yourself . Or find trustworthy scholars to advice and correct.

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On 2/21/2019 at 2:57 PM, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive it.

Can we get the juicy details behind this "shirk" ?

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16 hours ago, Warilla said:

Either gain knowledge of Qur'an and hadith yourself . Or find trustworthy scholars to advice and correct.

Ok, I found that I have no right to interpret the verses of Qur'an. And that there are more than 72 sects, everyone is criticizing the other for wrongdoing or calling the other misguided. Some reject hadith, some present weird interpretations of verses of Qur'an. So what next?

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Ok, I found that I have no right to interpret the verses of Qur'an. And that there are more than 72 sects, everyone is criticizing the other for wrongdoing or calling the other misguided. Some reject hadith, some present weird interpretations of verses of Qur'an. So what next?

That's a whole topic initself. But we stick taboot etc. Does Qur'an explicitly support these rituals ? Does hadith explicitly prescribe these rituals ?. If you look yourself and can't find them. Next step ask the right scholar the right question 

Eg  "I haven't found these rituals in Qur'an and hadith. Are they therefore a muba act." If they fall outside of muba hopefully the scholar will give you an explanation. Ask a few scholars to get a more rounded opinion.

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58 minutes ago, Warilla said:

But we stick taboot etc. Does Qur'an explicitly support these rituals ? Does hadith explicitly prescribe these rituals ?. If you look yourself and can't find them. Next step ask the right scholar the right question 

Eg  "I haven't found these rituals in Qur'an and hadith. Are they therefore a muba act." If they fall outside of muba hopefully the scholar will give you an explanation. Ask a few scholars to get a more rounded opinion.

Ok, I did that too, and got the answers that there is no problem in them. And in fact I have quoted the response of a scholar, the whole topic is available at al-Islam.org
 

Quote

Innovation is generally defined as something new created after the completion of religion or it denotes the invention of new beliefs and rituals after the passing away of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).8 In the same way Majmaul Bahrayn defines Bid’ah as:

“That which was not present in the period of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an innovation.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, not only Azadari but all the sciences and arts, which have safeguarded the survival of Islam, all of them seem to be wearing the label of ‘innovation’.

The present arrangement of the Holy Qur’an is innovation. The diacritics on the text of the Holy Qur’an are innovation. To transcribe it in the Naskh script is innovation. To bring out Qur’anic commentaries in book form is an innovation. Collecting traditions through new methods is an innovation. The science of narrators of traditions for determining their authenticity is an innovation. The study of sources to check the authenticity of traditional reports is an innovation. Compilation of jurisprudential works is innovation. Teaching and learning scholastic theology is innovation. Let us now move ahead… To select a caliph through consensus is innovation. Formation of a Shura consultative committee to select a caliph is innovation. The Tarawih9 Prayer is innovation. To derive the religious laws through analogy is innovation. To establish the public treasury is innovation. So much so, that even wearing the Sherwani10 is innovation. Conducting transactions through paper money is innovation. If you apply this criterion whatever was not present during the time of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is all innovation and every innovation is prohibited.

If being an innovation, Azadari should be given up then we must say goodbye to the Hijri calendar and every type of religious education must be struck off. So much so, that even the recitation of Qur’an printed on paper must be avoided. And most important of all, the caliphate of the first three caliphs must also be weeded out from the garden of Sunnism.

…is as an evil tree pulled up from the Earth’s surface; it has no stability.11

The source of all the sorrows and the root of all these evils is that Ahl al-Sunnah scholars have conditioned the minds of general public to regard all innovations as deviations and all the deviations lead to Hell fire. Although to consider every innovation and method to be prohibited is a mistaken notion. Both sects believe in fact that everything is permitted until its prohibition is not mentioned. Therefore the best thing would have been if they had pondered whether this innovation comes under prohibition or not, before labeling Azadari as innovation and misleading the general public. If it is possible to have it included among the prohibited deeds through a legal argument, then indeed to encourage people from refraining from it would be the greatest service to Islam.

But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.12

Instead of getting oneself deviated by selfish motives and slaughtering the law of the Prophet it would have been better for them to commit suicide.

The great Ahl al-Sunnah scholar, Imam Asqalani says in Fathul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari to the effect that:

It is well-known among the majority that innovation, can be divided into all types of acts. The compilation of scholastic theology is an example of obligatory innovation. Recommended innovation is writing of ShiaChatholarly books and establishment of religious schools. Permissible innovation includes new types of dishes. Detestable innovation is spending so much on food and clothes as does not reach the level of wasteful expenditure. And prohibited innovation, according to the people of truth is to rise up in revolt and everything opposed to the Shariah whose prohibition is proved.

Shia scholars have also explained this. Thus the Shahid Thani (Second Martyr) (a.r.) says in Sharh Lumah:

“It is said that all innovation is not prohibited. Rather some people have divided it into four types of actions.”

After these explanations what intelligent person can say that the circle ‘all innovation is deviation’ also includes things which are in the position of obligatory, recommended and permitted? Keeping the same things in view, the First Martyr, (Shahid Awwal) ((رضي الله عنه).) has said: “Matters that developed after the period of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are of various types. In our opinion innovation is applicable only to those things that fall under the prohibited category.

It is thus clarified that the standard of permissibility and impermissibility is not whether it existed in the time of the Prophet (s.a.), rather we should check whether the particular act conforms to the divine will or not.

https://www.al-Islam.org/understanding-Karbala-allamah-Sayyid-saeed-akhtar-Rizvi/azadari-and-innovation

  Quote

Taboot and Ta’ziyah

Making a Ta’ziyah and paying homage to it is labeled as idol worship. Though it is foolishness to call a replica of a non-living thing as an idol, and that too from the tongues of those whose traditional reports prove that it is recommended to make the replica of even living things. Ayesha is reported to have said:

“I used to play with my doll in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some of my friends used to play with me. When the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to enter they hid themselves from him. Then the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to send them to play with me again.” Muhaddith Dehlavi, in explanation of this tradition says, “It is permitted to make a doll and play with it.”24

Anyway, let us move away from this discussion. If you want to hear the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) speak of making a replica of a grave see the following traditional report:

A companion told the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he has vowed to kiss the threshold of Paradise and the Hourul Ein.25 The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him: Go and kiss the feet of your mother and the forehead of your father. He asked what he should do if his parents were not alive anymore? He was told to kiss their grave. Again he asked what he should do if he didn’t know where their grave was? The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him to, “Draw two lines and consider one as the grave of the mother and the other as the grave of the father and kiss them, and do not break your vow.”

This tradition is itself so detailed and self-explanatory that there seems no need of further elaboration.

Now what next?

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' I did that too, and got the answers that there is no problem in them"

No problem is not the same as defining the act.

Did he mean mustahab or mubah?

The first article just talks about defining innovation. It just states there are many innovations that doesn't really answer a question.

The second article has a quote about Aisha playing with a doll (take what you want from that ).

Draw two lines and consider one as the grave of the mother and the other as the grave of the father and kiss them, and do not break your vow.”

this is a hadith of an explicit action. If you see it as sahih then you have the action. To my knowledge nobody draws lines in the ground to represent graves. (Why not?)

So we still have important questions

1) is taboot etc mubah or mustahab

2) why does nobody do the prescribed act of drawing lines to represent graves.

Best to ask these questions  to a scholar  as from Whats been  posted  there is  nothing explicit about taboot and alaam. So we haven't really got anywhere despite several long posts.

Edited by Warilla

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14 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Can we get the juicy details behind this "shirk" ?

Sure, the superstition is, if the horse wiggles it’s right ear then the dua will come true. If it wiggles its left ear then the dua is rejected. I wish I was making this up. 

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Sure, the superstition is, if the horse wiggles it’s right ear then the dua will come true. If it wiggles its left ear then the dua is rejected. I wish I was making this up. 

I was asking about who prayed to the horse, what did they ask for, how did they ask, etc.

The horse answering the prayers is episode 2.

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