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In the Name of God بسم الله

WHY TABOOT AND ALAM IN Shia ASHURKHANA

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

if someone do it with intention of Namaz & praying to these stuff it's shirk & disbelief that is not acceptable from any Shia that we talked about here in below thread

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235056274-can’t-shake-the-paganistic-ritesritualstradition/

They know that the people bow down in respect because of the nisbat of that Ta'ziah or Zuljanah or Alam with Karbala or Imam Hussain (asws). Yet they accuse us of worshiping them. 

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2 minutes ago, realizm said:

Let me put it in simple words : Allah or a Prophet says so = you do it.

Random laymen start doing condemnable practices and systematize it as religious adoration = you abstain from doing It

And my brotherly advise for you brother is that try to limit yourself to the level where you have access. You don't have access to the hearts of any human being, don't claim or portray that you have knowledge of unseen or you know the secrets of the hearts. 

We cannot know whether a person doing prostration to Allah in salah or not. We don't know the hypocrites, they all prostrate before Allah in salah, recites kalima. For me, claiming that fulan is worshiping the Alam or Zuljanah while that fulan condemns the allegation, it is a sin. 

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4 hours ago, 786:) said:

How will the alam benefit you when it was made by Rajesh Kumar Fabrics (example)?

I suggest you to find out the manufacturer of the shirt of Prophet Yusuf ((عليه السلام)). Whether that was manufactured by Rajesh Kumar Fabrics or made by ShiaReformist Fabric. But lets see what the verse says: 

اذْهَبُوا بِقَمِيصِي هَٰذَا فَأَلْقُوهُ عَلَىٰ وَجْهِ أَبِي يَأْتِ بَصِيرًا وَأْتُونِي بِأَهْلِكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {93}

[Shakir 12:93] Take this my shirt and cast it on my father's face, he will (again) be able to see, and come to me with all your families.
[Pickthal 12:93] Go with this shirt of mine and lay it on my father's face, he will become (again) a seer; and come to me with all your folk.
[Yusufali 12:93] "Go with this my shirt, and cast it over the face of my father: he will come to see (clearly). Then come ye (here) to me together with all your family."

Now its time for you to question, how a shirt cured the sight of Prophet Yaqoob ((عليه السلام))? :party:

 

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Imagine if Salafi used Shia (I include myself, as buyyid were zaidi) logic and qiyas. They would take the hadith of buraq and put wings and a horn on a horse and then line up to touch it.

They would grab a rock put some clothes on it and state they are showing respect to Prophet Musa.

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@786:), Ask with your chief reformist if he got the honor to perform Hajj, ask him whether he participated in the stoning of shaytans? 

Were they the shaytans (major & minor) or the walls built by stones? Who built those walls? Allah or Humans? What will happen to your Hajj if you quit stoning these devils? 

 

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All of them who are taking part tirelessly to prove that kissing and bowing to alam and zuljanah is shirk...

The best way of showing respect to someone is kissing there hands( highly recommended with parents and older relatives) and bow to them by all means of respect... Is it what you call worshipping?? Why then you placed the statues of kabba with respect?? Why do you then love(respect,to be precise)your cattles which you are going to complete sunnah with??? 

I mean why all you intelligent people are mixing worship(ibadah) with respect(thats the respect what you pay to your loved one's thing when they are not infront of you)??? 

I really want to understand that!!

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23 minutes ago, Fakeha said:

All of them who are taking part tirelessly to prove that kissing and bowing to alam and zuljanah is shirk...

The best way of showing respect to someone is kissing there hands( highly recommended with parents and older relatives) and bow to them by all means of respect... Is it what you call worshipping?? Why then you placed the statues of kabba with respect?? Why do you then love(respect,to be precise)your cattles which you are going to complete sunnah with??? 

I mean why all you intelligent people are mixing worship(ibadah) with respect(thats the respect what you pay to your loved one's thing when they are not infront of you)??? 

I really want to understand that!!

Dear sister, you are now comparing your parents with a horse. 

Your parents gave you life. A random horse who could have ended on race fields or in a farm, what difference with a dog, a parrot or a hamster.

We do not pull the shirk card. We just condemn such stupid and irrational stuff. Many scholars do and did as well, it is not just us at ShiaChat.

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8 hours ago, Ralvi said:

Ok buddy 

Just go ahead and ignore Karbala 

Imam Hussain went out to "save the traditions of his Grandfather (S)". He didn't tell us to go create new traditions.

How did the Prophet (S) mourn the martyrs of Badr, Uhud, etc? How did he (S) mourn his uncle Hazrat Hamza? Did he (S) bring out such things?

Do you know what an alam is? It's a standard [war flag]. Both armies would carry one. It's a symbol/object associated with war. Did the Prophet (S) used to kiss it? Did he (S) used to stand next to it and make dua? Or tell the believers to do anything of the sort?

Should I dress up in armour when coming into a majlis because that what's Hazrat Abbas wore in Karbala?

I used to do some of these innovations myself. But you really need to take a step back and ask yourself, does the person you're doing this for or doing in their name approve of the act? Until divine judgement is not passed, you will not know if you gain his pleasure or his anger.

We need to stop being cultural sheep and actually think about our actions and the innovations we endorse. The alam becoming a religious symbol is something that happened over time, thanks to the innovations of man. Nowadays, it's totally normal for people to stand in front of the alam and make dua directly invoking Hazrat Abbas to fulfil their wishes. 

Dua is worship and we worship none other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

[39:3] Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve [worship] them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful.

[35:13] He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw.
[35:14] If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware.

 

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

1. bringing such stuff is not innovation in religion you are free to use these stuff or not

2. Tarawih prayes is a direct attack to Namaz(Salat) as pillar of religion & about it documented in Sunni sources that was an innovation by second caliph that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) prohibited it after him but people except few ones rest of people didn't obey him but he & rest of Shia Imams remaind firm againt it so everybody that prays Tarawih is doing innovation & every Muslim knows that destiny of every innovator & his/her followers is hell fire.

1. According to whom? The Prophet (S), or Ahlul Bayt [a] or the scholars?

2. You did not understand my point about Tarawih. Not talking about Umar or Imam Ali. I'm saying if congregation tarawih hadn't taken place in front of divine eyes, then it wouldn't have been outlawed. And today we'd think to ourselves; What harm is there in congregational tarawih and would practise it not knowing it's an innovation. Until divine judgement has not been passed on innovative acts, you don't know if they're allowed.

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14 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Do you know what an alam is? It's a standard [war flag]. Both armies would carry one. It's a symbol/object associated with war. Did the Prophet (S) used to kiss it? Did he (S) used to stand next to it and make dua? Or tell the believers to do anything of the sort?

Have you understood what Islam is? 

You think saying do not worship idols and condemn others or accuse others of worshiping idols or symbols, or saying there is no God but Allah is sufficient while you yourself turn your face towards a specific direction for worshiping the wajib ul wajood being which is not confined in any direction. You have build a house for your God who is limitless and you go there and circle around it and kiss the black stone. You have made there walls of stones and tell people that these are the shayateen, and you carryout stoning of those shayateen, And you call all these acts, the acts of worship. 

What is the difference between you and an idol worshiper? 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

@786:), Ask with your chief reformist if he got the honor to perform Hajj, ask him whether he participated in the stoning of shaytans? 

Were they the shaytans (major & minor) or the walls built by stones? Who built those walls? Allah or Humans? What will happen to your Hajj if you quit stoning these devils? 

 

Stoning shaytan and bowing down/touching a horse/alam are two completely different things. Not sure where you are going with that. If people bowed down to that man made wall or touched it for some sort of blessing then you would have a point.

Also, the verses you present as your defense of bowing/touching a horse/alam are irrelevant. Look at the story of Musa. When he was away from his people, they started prostrating/touching a cow. Musa returned and reprimanded his people for that. So now tell me why did Musa condemn that?

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10 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Stoning shaytan and bowing down/touching a horse/alam are two completely different things.

Stoning a wall and assuming as you have stoned the shaytan. 

11 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Also, the verses you present as your defense of bowing/touching a horse/alam are irrelevant.

First of all, I am not presenting anthing in defense. These are the verses of Qur'an which is a guide for muttaqeen and everything and every word of it is relevant for me.

Your claim is that making shabeeh, respecting animals, touching or kissing objects, bowing down before something other than Allah is shirk. You're failed to prove it and more surprisingly, you have labelled the verses of Qur'an as irrelevant.

You personally accused me of comitting shirk by saying "Allah, Prophet & Imams, this is Islamic triune" while you forgot the verse 5:55

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20 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

I do as commanded inshaAllah, not as my nafs and culture desires. That is the difference.

Commanded by whom?

Does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands you to accuse your brothers of shirk or idol worshiping? 

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Stoning a wall and assuming as you have stoned the shaytan. 

First of all, I am not presenting anthing in defense. These are the verses of Qur'an which is a guide for muttaqeen and everything and every word of it is relevant for me.

Your claim is that making shabeeh, respecting animals, touching or kissing objects, bowing down before something other than Allah is shirk. You're failed to prove it and more surprisingly, you have labelled the verses of Qur'an as irrelevant.

You personally accused me of comitting shirk by saying "Allah, Prophet & Imams, this is Islamic triune" while you forgot the verse 5:55

I see why you struggle to comprehend things. You do not understand context. Did I say the verses are irrelevant in general? Or did I say the verses are irrelevant in trying to defend prostrating to a horse? You are getting pathetic now.

I said there is no problem is creating a replica for remembrance and symbolism. It becomes a problem when people start bowing down to them and touching them--even asking dua from them. Go look above. I gave you the example of Musa from the Qur'an but you just ignored it and claim I failed to provide proof.

I didn't personally call you anything. I do not call people kafir or mushrik. That is for Allah to judge. If you go back and READ, I asked you 'Are you not doing the same things as Christians?'. It was on you to explain how you are not doing so. Instead you took the weak road and started putting words in my mouth.

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Commanded by whom?

Does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands you to accuse your brothers of shirk or idol worshiping? 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

Brother, I sincerely ask you to read the shi'I hadith in these links which will inshaAllah give you food for thought:

Bid'ah - The Worst Thing

Punishment for Creating Bid'ah

Disassociation from the Ahlul Bid'ah

Exposing Bid'ah & The Great Reward for Doing So

Imaams (عليهم السلام) Attitude Towards Bid'ah

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31 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

Brother, I sincerely ask you to read the shi'I hadith in these links which will inshaAllah give you food for thought:

Bid'ah - The Worst Thing

Punishment for Creating Bid'ah

Disassociation from the Ahlul Bid'ah

Exposing Bid'ah & The Great Reward for Doing So

Imaams (عليهم السلام) Attitude Towards Bid'ah

Thanks for the links! Unfortunately it won’t change many minds as culture is superior to Islamic principles.

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8 hours ago, realizm said:

Dear sister, you are now comparing your parents with a horse. 

Your parents gave you life. A random horse who could have ended on race fields or in a farm, what difference with a dog, a parrot or a hamster.

We do not pull the shirk card. We just condemn such stupid and irrational stuff. Many scholars do and did as well, it is not just us at ShiaChat.

No I am not!! I am trying to tell you that there is a fine bold line between worship and respect... 

And at the very least, if not for any other thing we shouldn't call those things stupid which is valuable to others!! 

 

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5 hours ago, 786:) said:

 

Look at the story of Musa. When he was away from his people, they started prostrating/touching a cow. Musa returned and reprimanded his people for that. So now tell me why did Musa condemn that?

In that story of Mosa, people wanted a idol to see what God looks alike.. They were having the idols for many years so they didn't wanted to completely abandoned it.. Their primary wish was to have the idol which they can worship of.. 

And there is a big difference if you want to see, zuljanah is not which is being worshipped...

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1 hour ago, Fakeha said:

In that story of Mosa, people wanted a idol to see what God looks alike.. They were having the idols for many years so they didn't wanted to completely abandoned it.. Their primary wish was to have the idol which they can worship of.. 

And there is a big difference if you want to see, zuljanah is not which is being worshipped...

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive it.

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15 hours ago, 786:) said:

You do not understand context. Did I say the verses are irrelevant in general? Or did I say the verses are irrelevant in trying to defend prostrating to a horse? You are getting pathetic now.

Prostrating to something other than God, they are relevant. I don't know how & why you see them as irrelevant! 
 

15 hours ago, 786:) said:

It becomes a problem when people start bowing down to them and touching them--even asking dua from them. Go look above. I gave you the example of Musa from the Qur'an but you just ignored it and claim I failed to provide proof.

Touching or bowing down out of respect to something other than Allah, is not a sin and not prohibited in Islam. The matter of asking Dua is a seperate matter, but the question arises how you know to whom they are directing the dua? Do you claim to know the secrets of the heart? A person standing infront of Alam, raising his hands, looks to you as he is asking dua, how do you know he is asking something from that Alam? This allegation is ridiculous indeed. 
 

15 hours ago, 786:) said:

If you go back and READ, I asked you 'Are you not doing the same things as Christians?'. It was on you to explain how you are not doing so. Instead you took the weak road and started putting words in my mouth.

I remember the words "Islamic Triune" and you have said Allah, Prophet & Imams too. It is better if you check your words.

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20 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I suggest you to find out the manufacturer of the shirt of Prophet Yusuf ((عليه السلام)). Whether that was manufactured by Rajesh Kumar Fabrics or made by ShiaReformist Fabric. But lets see what the verse says: 

اذْهَبُوا بِقَمِيصِي هَٰذَا فَأَلْقُوهُ عَلَىٰ وَجْهِ أَبِي يَأْتِ بَصِيرًا وَأْتُونِي بِأَهْلِكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {93}

[Shakir 12:93] Take this my shirt and cast it on my father's face, he will (again) be able to see, and come to me with all your families.
[Pickthal 12:93] Go with this shirt of mine and lay it on my father's face, he will become (again) a seer; and come to me with all your folk.
[Yusufali 12:93] "Go with this my shirt, and cast it over the face of my father: he will come to see (clearly). Then come ye (here) to me together with all your family."

Now its time for you to question, how a shirt cured the sight of Prophet Yaqoob ((عليه السلام))? :party:

 

Subhanallah 

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16 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

Brother, I sincerely ask you to read the shi'I hadith in these links which will inshaAllah give you food for thought:

Bid'ah - The Worst Thing

Punishment for Creating Bid'ah

Disassociation from the Ahlul Bid'ah

Exposing Bid'ah & The Great Reward for Doing So

Imaams (عليهم السلام) Attitude Towards Bid'ah

That’s like telling a Shi’a to read a book on why Shia’ are bad

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15 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

Brother, I sincerely ask you to read the shi'I hadith in these links which will inshaAllah give you food for thought:

Bid'ah - The Worst Thing

Punishment for Creating Bid'ah

Disassociation from the Ahlul Bid'ah

Exposing Bid'ah & The Great Reward for Doing So

Imaams (عليهم السلام) Attitude Towards Bid'ah

Who can argue that Bid'ah is a good thing? There are many ahadith present to believe that inventions are forbidden. What you have not mentioned is that what is Bid'ah, lets see few ahadith:

الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) : أمّا أهلُ البِدعةِ فالمُخالِفونَ لأمرِ اللّه‏ِ ولِكتابهِ ورسولِه ، العاملونَ بِرأيِهم وأهوائهِم وإنْ كَثُروا.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘The innovators are those who contradict the command of Allah, His Book and His Messenger; they are those who follow their own opinion and desires, even if they are the majority.’[Ibid. no. 44216]

الإمامُ الصّادقُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) : مَن دعـا النـّاسَ إلى نفسِه وفيهِم مَن هُو أعلمُ مِنه فهُو مُبْتَدِعٌ ضالٌّ.

Imam al-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘Anyone who calls people to give him their allegiance, knowing that among them is someone superior to him, is an erroneous innovator.’[Tuhaf al-’Uqul, no. 375]

 

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Innovation is generally defined as something new created after the completion of religion or it denotes the invention of new beliefs and rituals after the passing away of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).8 In the same way Majmaul Bahrayn defines Bid’ah as:

“That which was not present in the period of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an innovation.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, not only Azadari but all the sciences and arts, which have safeguarded the survival of Islam, all of them seem to be wearing the label of ‘innovation’.

The present arrangement of the Holy Qur’an is innovation. The diacritics on the text of the Holy Qur’an are innovation. To transcribe it in the Naskh script is innovation. To bring out Qur’anic commentaries in book form is an innovation. Collecting traditions through new methods is an innovation. The science of narrators of traditions for determining their authenticity is an innovation. The study of sources to check the authenticity of traditional reports is an innovation. Compilation of jurisprudential works is innovation. Teaching and learning scholastic theology is innovation. Let us now move ahead… To select a caliph through consensus is innovation. Formation of a Shura consultative committee to select a caliph is innovation. The Tarawih9 Prayer is innovation. To derive the religious laws through analogy is innovation. To establish the public treasury is innovation. So much so, that even wearing the Sherwani10 is innovation. Conducting transactions through paper money is innovation. If you apply this criterion whatever was not present during the time of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is all innovation and every innovation is prohibited.

If being an innovation, Azadari should be given up then we must say goodbye to the Hijri calendar and every type of religious education must be struck off. So much so, that even the recitation of Qur’an printed on paper must be avoided. And most important of all, the caliphate of the first three caliphs must also be weeded out from the garden of Sunnism.

…is as an evil tree pulled up from the Earth’s surface; it has no stability.11

The source of all the sorrows and the root of all these evils is that Ahl al-Sunnah scholars have conditioned the minds of general public to regard all innovations as deviations and all the deviations lead to Hell fire. Although to consider every innovation and method to be prohibited is a mistaken notion. Both sects believe in fact that everything is permitted until its prohibition is not mentioned. Therefore the best thing would have been if they had pondered whether this innovation comes under prohibition or not, before labeling Azadari as innovation and misleading the general public. If it is possible to have it included among the prohibited deeds through a legal argument, then indeed to encourage people from refraining from it would be the greatest service to Islam.

But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.12

Instead of getting oneself deviated by selfish motives and slaughtering the law of the Prophet it would have been better for them to commit suicide.

The great Ahl al-Sunnah scholar, Imam Asqalani says in Fathul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari to the effect that:

It is well-known among the majority that innovation, can be divided into all types of acts. The compilation of scholastic theology is an example of obligatory innovation. Recommended innovation is writing of scholarly books and establishment of religious schools. Permissible innovation includes new types of dishes. Detestable innovation is spending so much on food and clothes as does not reach the level of wasteful expenditure. And prohibited innovation, according to the people of truth is to rise up in revolt and everything opposed to the Shariah whose prohibition is proved.

Shia scholars have also explained this. Thus the Shahid Thani (Second Martyr) (a.r.) says in Sharh Lumah:

“It is said that all innovation is not prohibited. Rather some people have divided it into four types of actions.”

After these explanations what intelligent person can say that the circle ‘all innovation is deviation’ also includes things which are in the position of obligatory, recommended and permitted? Keeping the same things in view, the First Martyr, (Shahid Awwal) ((رضي الله عنه).) has said: “Matters that developed after the period of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are of various types. In our opinion innovation is applicable only to those things that fall under the prohibited category.

It is thus clarified that the standard of permissibility and impermissibility is not whether it existed in the time of the Prophet (s.a.), rather we should check whether the particular act conforms to the divine will or not.

https://www.al-Islam.org/understanding-Karbala-allamah-Sayyid-saeed-akhtar-Rizvi/azadari-and-innovation

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Taboot and Ta’ziyah

Making a Ta’ziyah and paying homage to it is labeled as idol worship. Though it is foolishness to call a replica of a non-living thing as an idol, and that too from the tongues of those whose traditional reports prove that it is recommended to make the replica of even living things. Ayesha is reported to have said:

“I used to play with my doll in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some of my friends used to play with me. When the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to enter they hid themselves from him. Then the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to send them to play with me again.” Muhaddith Dehlavi, in explanation of this tradition says, “It is permitted to make a doll and play with it.”24

Anyway, let us move away from this discussion. If you want to hear the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) speak of making a replica of a grave see the following traditional report:

A companion told the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he has vowed to kiss the threshold of Paradise and the Hourul Ein.25 The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him: Go and kiss the feet of your mother and the forehead of your father. He asked what he should do if his parents were not alive anymore? He was told to kiss their grave. Again he asked what he should do if he didn’t know where their grave was? The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him to, “Draw two lines and consider one as the grave of the mother and the other as the grave of the father and kiss them, and do not break your vow.”

This tradition is itself so detailed and self-explanatory that there seems no need of further elaboration.

What makes you so sure that what you believe is right and what your brothers are doing is wrong, bid'ah and shirk? 

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10 hours ago, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive it.

Look Shi'ism have this huge concept of wasila.. Those people you saw are making wasila!! Different people have different perspective about it.. Some people have respect for them, some makes wasila...  Making shabeeh and that make it wasila for duas,I don't know what commoners think about that.. But that is just wasila!!

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11 hours ago, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive it.

And even if the majority don’t. The fact that they have rituals not from the Prophet means that the boundaries can keep getting pushed. It goes from not it not shirk this our niyat all the way to what you described.

 

 

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Imam Ali stood on the Prophets shoulders to smash the last idol.

If you are a follower of Imam Ali read his life and words and then think to yourself would he approve of "his" Shia.

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12 hours ago, 786:) said:

I have personally seen people make dua to the horse. That is idolatry no matter how you perceive It.

You must have your metal health checked if you really think that they believe the horse is going to listen to their "dau" or even understand what they're saying. 

What would be they saying to horse??? Enlighten us with more of your assumptions. It your shirk-mania that forces you to believe that believers will ask from a zuljanah their needs. 

I advise you to think positively, Whenever I see Zuljanah, I always think about its rider. And it is the very reason why you see the shabeeh of Zuljanah in Azadari processions, to reminds us the rider. A replica of injured horse is not our mowla, its very sad that we need to remind you this again & again. 

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5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

What makes you so sure that what you believe is right and what your brothers are doing is wrong, bid'ah and shirk? 

This is precisely the reason why we need to act according to the divine judgement. Because we all have our own definition of right/wrong and good/bad. And that has been my message in this thread, that until we haven't had divine judgement on these new acts that we've introduced into our communities, there's no way of knowing whether they're accepted or not.

Let me put it another way. There's a 50/50 chance that the new act is seen as good or bad. Until the divine eyes don't tell us, we won't know for sure. Surely it's better to play it safe than sorry.

The second problem is with limits. People transgress the limits be it with or without ignorance.

The third problem is with extremes. People are constantly pushing the extremes in their acts, which then becomes normal. Til they push it to a new extreme and the cycle continues.

The fourth problem is perception. Am I doing justice to the religion for which I'm an ambassador.

All this then leads to further disunity we have in our communities with groups bashing and labelling one another.

So my stance is simple; Stick to what's been prescribed. Religion is not our playground for us to do anything we like. Is a very serious matter and we need to be careful what we endorse.

Fi Amanillah

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And how can one find that what is prescribed? 

Either gain knowledge of Qur'an and hadith yourself . Or find trustworthy scholars to advice and correct.

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16 hours ago, Warilla said:

Either gain knowledge of Qur'an and hadith yourself . Or find trustworthy scholars to advice and correct.

Ok, I found that I have no right to interpret the verses of Qur'an. And that there are more than 72 sects, everyone is criticizing the other for wrongdoing or calling the other misguided. Some reject hadith, some present weird interpretations of verses of Qur'an. So what next?

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Ok, I found that I have no right to interpret the verses of Qur'an. And that there are more than 72 sects, everyone is criticizing the other for wrongdoing or calling the other misguided. Some reject hadith, some present weird interpretations of verses of Qur'an. So what next?

That's a whole topic initself. But we stick taboot etc. Does Qur'an explicitly support these rituals ? Does hadith explicitly prescribe these rituals ?. If you look yourself and can't find them. Next step ask the right scholar the right question 

Eg  "I haven't found these rituals in Qur'an and hadith. Are they therefore a muba act." If they fall outside of muba hopefully the scholar will give you an explanation. Ask a few scholars to get a more rounded opinion.

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58 minutes ago, Warilla said:

But we stick taboot etc. Does Qur'an explicitly support these rituals ? Does hadith explicitly prescribe these rituals ?. If you look yourself and can't find them. Next step ask the right scholar the right question 

Eg  "I haven't found these rituals in Qur'an and hadith. Are they therefore a muba act." If they fall outside of muba hopefully the scholar will give you an explanation. Ask a few scholars to get a more rounded opinion.

Ok, I did that too, and got the answers that there is no problem in them. And in fact I have quoted the response of a scholar, the whole topic is available at al-Islam.org
 

Quote

Innovation is generally defined as something new created after the completion of religion or it denotes the invention of new beliefs and rituals after the passing away of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).8 In the same way Majmaul Bahrayn defines Bid’ah as:

“That which was not present in the period of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an innovation.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, not only Azadari but all the sciences and arts, which have safeguarded the survival of Islam, all of them seem to be wearing the label of ‘innovation’.

The present arrangement of the Holy Qur’an is innovation. The diacritics on the text of the Holy Qur’an are innovation. To transcribe it in the Naskh script is innovation. To bring out Qur’anic commentaries in book form is an innovation. Collecting traditions through new methods is an innovation. The science of narrators of traditions for determining their authenticity is an innovation. The study of sources to check the authenticity of traditional reports is an innovation. Compilation of jurisprudential works is innovation. Teaching and learning scholastic theology is innovation. Let us now move ahead… To select a caliph through consensus is innovation. Formation of a Shura consultative committee to select a caliph is innovation. The Tarawih9 Prayer is innovation. To derive the religious laws through analogy is innovation. To establish the public treasury is innovation. So much so, that even wearing the Sherwani10 is innovation. Conducting transactions through paper money is innovation. If you apply this criterion whatever was not present during the time of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is all innovation and every innovation is prohibited.

If being an innovation, Azadari should be given up then we must say goodbye to the Hijri calendar and every type of religious education must be struck off. So much so, that even the recitation of Qur’an printed on paper must be avoided. And most important of all, the caliphate of the first three caliphs must also be weeded out from the garden of Sunnism.

…is as an evil tree pulled up from the Earth’s surface; it has no stability.11

The source of all the sorrows and the root of all these evils is that Ahl al-Sunnah scholars have conditioned the minds of general public to regard all innovations as deviations and all the deviations lead to Hell fire. Although to consider every innovation and method to be prohibited is a mistaken notion. Both sects believe in fact that everything is permitted until its prohibition is not mentioned. Therefore the best thing would have been if they had pondered whether this innovation comes under prohibition or not, before labeling Azadari as innovation and misleading the general public. If it is possible to have it included among the prohibited deeds through a legal argument, then indeed to encourage people from refraining from it would be the greatest service to Islam.

But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.12

Instead of getting oneself deviated by selfish motives and slaughtering the law of the Prophet it would have been better for them to commit suicide.

The great Ahl al-Sunnah scholar, Imam Asqalani says in Fathul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari to the effect that:

It is well-known among the majority that innovation, can be divided into all types of acts. The compilation of scholastic theology is an example of obligatory innovation. Recommended innovation is writing of ShiaChatholarly books and establishment of religious schools. Permissible innovation includes new types of dishes. Detestable innovation is spending so much on food and clothes as does not reach the level of wasteful expenditure. And prohibited innovation, according to the people of truth is to rise up in revolt and everything opposed to the Shariah whose prohibition is proved.

Shia scholars have also explained this. Thus the Shahid Thani (Second Martyr) (a.r.) says in Sharh Lumah:

“It is said that all innovation is not prohibited. Rather some people have divided it into four types of actions.”

After these explanations what intelligent person can say that the circle ‘all innovation is deviation’ also includes things which are in the position of obligatory, recommended and permitted? Keeping the same things in view, the First Martyr, (Shahid Awwal) ((رضي الله عنه).) has said: “Matters that developed after the period of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are of various types. In our opinion innovation is applicable only to those things that fall under the prohibited category.

It is thus clarified that the standard of permissibility and impermissibility is not whether it existed in the time of the Prophet (s.a.), rather we should check whether the particular act conforms to the divine will or not.

https://www.al-Islam.org/understanding-Karbala-allamah-Sayyid-saeed-akhtar-Rizvi/azadari-and-innovation

  Quote

Taboot and Ta’ziyah

Making a Ta’ziyah and paying homage to it is labeled as idol worship. Though it is foolishness to call a replica of a non-living thing as an idol, and that too from the tongues of those whose traditional reports prove that it is recommended to make the replica of even living things. Ayesha is reported to have said:

“I used to play with my doll in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some of my friends used to play with me. When the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to enter they hid themselves from him. Then the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to send them to play with me again.” Muhaddith Dehlavi, in explanation of this tradition says, “It is permitted to make a doll and play with it.”24

Anyway, let us move away from this discussion. If you want to hear the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) speak of making a replica of a grave see the following traditional report:

A companion told the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he has vowed to kiss the threshold of Paradise and the Hourul Ein.25 The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him: Go and kiss the feet of your mother and the forehead of your father. He asked what he should do if his parents were not alive anymore? He was told to kiss their grave. Again he asked what he should do if he didn’t know where their grave was? The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told him to, “Draw two lines and consider one as the grave of the mother and the other as the grave of the father and kiss them, and do not break your vow.”

This tradition is itself so detailed and self-explanatory that there seems no need of further elaboration.

Now what next?

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