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NASRULLAH ALI

WHY TABOOT AND ALAM IN Shia ASHURKHANA

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Why Shia people create alam and taboot ?? why you asking from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) ???  why there start a think like Israel people (as per below reference)  ? 

And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, "O Moses, make for us a God just as they have gods." He said, "Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly.

_

Verse (7:138)

 

I hope a good reply 

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Salam this practices first appeared in buyyid dynasty in Persia. In all likelyhood it was a mix of zaidi and suffi practices that came up with these concepts. As a zaidi Shia I can tell you there is no connection to Islam or more specifically teachings of Ahlul Bayt and was a mistake that became popular. Unfortunately it's widely practiced now 

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All religions have unorthodox practices , I'm not opposed to Alam , coffin and horse as I used to be as I think imagery is sometimes important in religious commemoration.

problem is sometimes these rituals become the end in itself and that's where the problem starts 

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I think with the right niyat the symbolism initself is not a problen. But the devil is in the detail when it comes to these practices. But I'd say it's best avoided and to stick to those practices thought by the Prophet.

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^ indeed they were big cottage industries right upto 20th century 

I'm old brothers I'm not so full of fire and fury against bidah and ghuluu like I used to be 

I say much bigger evil is when our grand religious leaders mislead and misinform people while claiming to be custodians of faith 

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13 hours ago, NASRULLAH Ali said:

And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, "O Moses, make for us a God just as they have gods." He said, "Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly.

_

Verse (7:138)

It seems to me that you keep a lot of idols in your mind & heart. Your heart is not yet reserved only for the One besides whom there is no God, and perhaps that is the reason you doubt on the sincerety of other believers.

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

Could there be any divine power besides Allah? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

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When we are kissing the alam which has Imam Hussain’s name written on it, this is a sign of respect to Imam Hussain. Just like when someone kisses the Qur’an he is not glorifying or respecting the covering that it is made from, but the Word of Allah itself. 

I hope this helps.

Wsalam

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13 hours ago, NASRULLAH Ali said:

Why Shia people create alam and taboot ?? why you asking from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) ???  why there start a think like Israel people (as per below reference)  ? 

And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, "O Moses, make for us a God just as they have gods." He said, "Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly.

_

Verse (7:138)

 

I hope a good reply 

Read more about what tawassul means in Shia Islam .

creating alam and taboot are for respect to our Imams (عليه السلام) , not to worship them. A lot of Sunnis tend to misunderstand that and accuse us for committing shirk.

we don’t make Alams to make different gods, how dare you compare us to them.

We don’t start ‘a think’ like them. 

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8 hours ago, Warilla said:

Salam this practices first appeared in buyyid dynasty in Persia. In all likelyhood it was a mix of zaidi and suffi practices that came up with these concepts. As a zaidi Shia I can tell you there is no connection to Islam or more specifically teachings of Ahlul Bayt and was a mistake that became popular. Unfortunately it's widely practiced now 

using these signs like as current Alam started from Safavid period in response of using cross by Christians that every unit of Safavid army had a sign that through time it becomes more decorated & heavier than before during buyyid dynasty the mourning was very simple that they may were using drums to invite & inform people about it & using Taboot & Nakhl is exagerating of people that turns to a ritual stuff but there is nothing un Islamic in these stuff 

6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

^ indeed they were big cottage industries right upto 20th century 

I'm old brothers I'm not so full of fire and fury against bidah and ghuluu like I used to be 

I say much bigger evil is when our grand religious leaders mislead and misinform people while claiming to be custodians of faith 

the using these symbols many times condemned by Shia scholars but because it's popularity people are using these stuff there is a famous story that one of Great Shia Marjas in Iraq one time gathered people people in day of Ashura & talked with them to not use these symbols in their procession suddenly one man stand & said " we obey you in whole of year but today doesn't belong to you & we don't listen to you in this day that after that people take the stuffs and scatterd & leave him alone"

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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Mawla Abbas(عليه السلام) carried Alam, and he touched the tongue of Imam Ali(عليه السلام), and is Imam Ali’s representative in Karbala, who is Allah appointed. The status of the Alam bearer is beyond any league we comprehend and is the symbol of ultimate justice and sacrifice 

we created nothing, we follow what Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves

 

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On 2/19/2019 at 12:49 PM, Ralvi said:

Mawla Abbas(عليه السلام) carried Alam, and he touched the tongue of Imam Ali(عليه السلام), and is Imam Ali’s representative in Karbala, who is Allah appointed. The status of the Alam bearer is beyond any league we comprehend and is the symbol of ultimate justice and sacrifice 

we created nothing, we follow what Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves

 

Assalaamualaykum,

Alam, Taboot and Horses might not be wrong as we do not worship them, rather we just show our respect to them as it help us to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain(عليه السلام). But I believe, it can be extremely dangerous in long run or for our upcoming generations, this hadeeth led me to believe. And History do repeats
 

1 أبي (رحمه الله) قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى قال حدثني محمد بن خالد البرقي قال حدثني حماد بن عيسى عن حريز بن عبد الله السجستاني عن جعفر بن محمد (ع) في قول الله عز وجل و قالوا لا تذرن آلهتكم و لا تذرن ودا و لا سوطا و لا يغوث و يعوق و نسرا قال كانوا يعبدون الله عز و جلمات فقاوا فضج قومهم و شق ذلك عليهم ف أهلهم إبليس لعنه الله فقال لهم أتخذ لكم أصناما على صورهم فتنظرون إليهم و تأنسون بهم و تعبدون الله فأعد لهم أصناما على سبيل المثال فكانوا يعبدون الله عز وجل و ينظرون إلى تلك الأصنام فلما جاء الشتاء و الأمطار أدخلوا الأصنام البيوت فلم يزالوا يعبدون الله عز و جل حتى هلك ذلك القرن و نشأ أولادهم فقالوا إن آباءنا كانوا يعبدون هاو تو ذي سومر أوف ذي غودس أوف ذي غودس أوف ذي غود،

My father said, ‘Sa’ad Bin Abdullah narrated to us, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Ibn Isa, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al barqy, from Hamaad Bin Isa, from Hareyz Ibn Abdullah Al Sajastany,

(It has been narrated) from Ja’far Bin Muhammad (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [71:23] And they have said (to each other), 'Abandon not your gods: Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa', neither Yaguth nor Ya'uq, nor Nasr. The Imam said: ‘They (the mentioned) used to be worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic. They died. It was grievous upon their people, so Iblees came to them and said to them, ‘Take idols for yourselves upon their images, so that you can look towards them, and be cordial with them and you can (still) be worshiping Allah’.

So he prepared idols for them upon their resemblances. So they used to be worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic, and were looking towards those idols. So when the winter came upon them, and the rains, they entered the idols into their houses. So they did not stop worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic until that generation died off, and their children grew up. So they (new generation) said, ‘Our fathers used to worship these, therefore worship them besides Allah Mighty and Majestic’. So these are the Words of Allah Blessed and High [71:23] Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa – the Verse’.

Source:

  1. Ilail as-Sharai by Shaykh Sadooq, Vol 1, Pg 3, Ch 3, H 1.

Grading:

  1. Shaykh Asif Muhsini said hadeeth has "Mo'tabar Sanad" (Reliable Chain) in Masharat Behar al-Anwar, Vol 1, Pg 109.

 

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Those who object on Zuljanah, should see chapter 100, how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is praising the horses of mujahideen.

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 1:

وَالْعَادِيَاتِ ضَبْحًا

I swear by the runners breathing pantingly, (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 2:

فَالْمُورِيَاتِ قَدْحًا

Then those that produce fire striking, (English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 3:

فَالْمُغِيرَاتِ صُبْحًا

Then those that make raids at morn, (English - Shakir)

"Taboot" in the verses of Qur'an:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 248:

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ آيَةَ مُلْكِهِ أَن يَأْتِيَكُمُ التَّابُوتُ فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِّمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And the Prophet said to them: Surely the sign of His kingdom is, that there shall come to you the chest in which there is tranquillity from your Lord and residue of the relics of what the children of Musa and the children of Haroun have left, the angels bearing it; most surely there is a sign in this for those who believe. (English - Shakir) 

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1 hour ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Assalaamualaykum,

Alam, Taboot and Horses might not be wrong as we do not worship them, rather we just show our respect to them as it help us to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain(عليه السلام). But I believe, it can be extremely dangerous in long run or for our upcoming generations, this hadeeth led me to believe. And History do repeats
 

1 أبي (رحمه الله) قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى قال حدثني محمد بن خالد البرقي قال حدثني حماد بن عيسى عن حريز بن عبد الله السجستاني عن جعفر بن محمد (ع) في قول الله عز وجل و قالوا لا تذرن آلهتكم و لا تذرن ودا و لا سوطا و لا يغوث و يعوق و نسرا قال كانوا يعبدون الله عز و جلمات فقاوا فضج قومهم و شق ذلك عليهم ف أهلهم إبليس لعنه الله فقال لهم أتخذ لكم أصناما على صورهم فتنظرون إليهم و تأنسون بهم و تعبدون الله فأعد لهم أصناما على سبيل المثال فكانوا يعبدون الله عز وجل و ينظرون إلى تلك الأصنام فلما جاء الشتاء و الأمطار أدخلوا الأصنام البيوت فلم يزالوا يعبدون الله عز و جل حتى هلك ذلك القرن و نشأ أولادهم فقالوا إن آباءنا كانوا يعبدون هاو تو ذي سومر أوف ذي غودس أوف ذي غودس أوف ذي غود،

My father said, ‘Sa’ad Bin Abdullah narrated to us, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Ibn Isa, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al barqy, from Hamaad Bin Isa, from Hareyz Ibn Abdullah Al Sajastany,

(It has been narrated) from Ja’far Bin Muhammad (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [71:23] And they have said (to each other), 'Abandon not your gods: Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa', neither Yaguth nor Ya'uq, nor Nasr. The Imam said: ‘They (the mentioned) used to be worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic. They died. It was grievous upon their people, so Iblees came to them and said to them, ‘Take idols for yourselves upon their images, so that you can look towards them, and be cordial with them and you can (still) be worshiping Allah’.

So he prepared idols for them upon their resemblances. So they used to be worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic, and were looking towards those idols. So when the winter came upon them, and the rains, they entered the idols into their houses. So they did not stop worshiping Allah Mighty and Majestic until that generation died off, and their children grew up. So they (new generation) said, ‘Our fathers used to worship these, therefore worship them besides Allah Mighty and Majestic’. So these are the Words of Allah Blessed and High [71:23] Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa – the Verse’.

Source:

  1. Ilail as-Sharai by Shaykh Sadooq, Vol 1, Pg 3, Ch 3, H 1.

Grading:

  1. Shaykh Asif Muhsini said hadeeth has "Mo'tabar Sanad" (Reliable Chain) in Masharat Behar al-Anwar, Vol 1, Pg 109.

 

Alam isn’t an idol? In fact Imam e Zaman will be carrying one?

just what’s dangerous here?

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

using these signs like as current Alam started from Safavid period in response of using cross by Christians that every unit of Safavid army had a sign that through time it becomes more decorated & heavier than before during buyyid dynasty the mourning was very simple that they may were using drums to invite & inform people about it & using Taboot & Nakhl is exagerating of people that turns to a ritual stuff but there is nothing un Islamic in these stuff 

the using these symbols many times condemned by Shia scholars but because it's popularity people are using these stuff there is a famous story that one of Great Shia Marjas in Iraq one time gathered people people in day of Ashura & talked with them to not use these symbols in their procession suddenly one man stand & said " we obey you in whole of year but today doesn't belong to you & we don't listen to you in this day that after that people take the stuffs and scatterd & leave him alone"

:salam:

Imagine how Imam Mahdi (aj) will feel when people will leave him alone.

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Those who object on Zuljanah, should see chapter 100, how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is praising the horses of mujahideen.

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 1:

وَالْعَادِيَاتِ ضَبْحًا

I swear by the runners breathing pantingly, (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 2:

فَالْمُورِيَاتِ قَدْحًا

Then those that produce fire striking, (English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Adiyat, Verse 3:

فَالْمُغِيرَاتِ صُبْحًا

Then those that make raids at morn, (English - Shakir)

"Taboot" in the verses of Qur'an:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 248:

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ آيَةَ مُلْكِهِ أَن يَأْتِيَكُمُ التَّابُوتُ فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِّمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And the Prophet said to them: Surely the sign of His kingdom is, that there shall come to you the chest in which there is tranquillity from your Lord and residue of the relics of what the children of Musa and the children of Haroun have left, the angels bearing it; most surely there is a sign in this for those who believe. (English - Shakir) 

Those are not holy relics or horses of mujahideen. They are made in China fabrics and farm animals brought in a superstitious gathering.

Please stop condoning ridiculous stuff.

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53 minutes ago, realizm said:

Please stop condoning ridiculous stuff.

And with due respect, I request you to stop displaying ignorance. 

Holy Qur’an has kept the memory of Prophet Ibrahim's sacrifice alive and called all the animals of sacrifice as ‘signs of Allah'.

And stop being partners of those who put on us false allegations of worshiping idols. At least fear Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)!!

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And with due respect, I request you to stop displaying ignorance. 

Holy Qur’an has kept the memory of Prophet Ibrahim's sacrifice alive and called all the animals of sacrifice as ‘signs of Allah'.

And stop being partners of those who put on us false allegations of worshiping idols. At least fear Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)!!

I do not accuse any of you of worshipping idols. I just find it completely ridiculous to bow to a white horse thinking it is holy. 

And I am struggling to find the link between the animal of sacrifice and this masquerade. And by the way do you bow to a sheep or cow when you meet one?

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Unless someone can show authentic historical accounts of the Prophet (S) and/or the holy saints [a] specifically bringing out such items during times of mourning, it would be classed as innovation in religion. And that is a serious crime.

Imagine congregational tarawih prayers hadn’t taken place in front of the Prophet (S) for him to pass judgement on the act. We’d be practising such a thing today too. And that’s the problem. There’s acts that we pass off as religious which haven’t had any judgement passed on them. So you have no idea if you gain His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) pleasure in doing them.

Not to mention the ridiculous analogies being used to prove their validity. All the while analogical reasoning to deduce law has been blasted by the Prophet (S).

Better safe than sorry; Do only what’s been prescribed and avoid invention.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 minutes ago, realizm said:

I just find it completely ridiculous to bow to a white horse thinking it is holy. 

Perhaps you would have same thoughts if you would have been asked to prostrate or bow down before Adam.

Enjoy yourself 

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