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In the Name of God بسم الله
wolverine

#58 Speaking the Truth vs Good Manners?

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Poll #58  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Which is your line of thought?

    • It's important to speak "truth" no matter the context or sensitivities involved, as speaking "truth" urgently and directly is best.
      30
    • Maintaining harmony, good manners, and peace is more important, as the "truth" will reveal itself in more indirect means at a later time
      43


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The second one. It’s way better to be kind and maintain harmony than it is to speak a truth that will cause distress. It’s important to be sensitive to people’s emotions. 

Theres nothing wrong with speaking the truth, but do so tactfully. 

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I think the question is worded in such a way that it makes it sound better to keep silent. A more carefully unbiased choice of language might have been more informative. 

But who am I to complain? The biased wording supports my own personal bias! :grin:

I think speaking all of the truth has its place, and keeping the peace also has its place. If one can find the perfect balance that is ideal, but I'd rather err on the side of being too nice, too polite. 

I certainly wouldn't lie, and I'd give my opinion when asked, but not every situation is the right time for a lecture on morality and ethics. 

Edited by notme
Typo.

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^^^

This was not what we agreed on originally. Brother wolverine added more to the second line and eventually truth surfaces at the end.

To me that sounds like keep the peace on Earth, and after you die the truth is revealed.  But then what is the point after death?

Poorly worded poll and hence will not be voting.

Even if the poll showed 99.99% against truth, my feelings wouldn't change, Qur'an and Ahulbayt are sufficient for me.

يٰۤـاَيُّهَا الَّذِيۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا كُوۡنُوۡا قَوَّامِيۡنَ بِالۡقِسۡطِ شُهَدَآءَ لِلّٰهِ وَلَوۡ عَلٰٓى اَنۡفُسِكُمۡ اَوِ الۡوَالِدَيۡنِ وَالۡاَقۡرَبِيۡنَ ؕ اِنۡ يَّكُنۡ غَنِيًّا اَوۡ فَقِيۡرًا فَاللّٰهُ اَوۡلٰى بِهِمَا فَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا الۡهَوٰٓى اَنۡ تَعۡدِلُوۡا ۚ وَاِنۡ تَلۡوٗۤا اَوۡ تُعۡرِضُوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُوۡنَ خَبِيۡرًا‏ 
(4:135) Believers! Be upholders of justice,164 and bearers of witness to truth for the sake of Allah,165 even though it may either be against yourselves or against your parents and kinsmen, or the rich or the poor: for Allah is more concerned with their well-being than you are. Do not, then, follow your own desires lest you keep away from justice. If you twist or turn away from (the truth), know that Allah is well aware of all that you do.
Edited by Laayla

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11 minutes ago, Reza said:

How would you word it?

I would have kept it simple: "which is more important, speaking the truth or being polite?" @Laayla does that phrasing seem unbiased to you? 

Since there are already many answers, I don't know if it's a good idea to edit the poll. It might upset those who might have answered differently. 

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

I would have kept it simple: "which is more important, speaking the truth or being polite?" @Laayla does that phrasing seem unbiased to you? 

Making it too simple would increase the chance of misinterpretation and ambiguity. Increasing the detail may lead to bias, but its also easier for people to understand.

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39 minutes ago, Laayla said:

What is ambiguous about speaking truth vs good manners?

Because people will reply with:

Why not both?

So the only way to have good manners is to not speak the truth?

How are these two things related at all?

etc, etc

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1 hour ago, Reza said:

Because people will reply with:

Why not both?

So the only way to have good manners is to not speak the truth?

How are these two things related at all?

etc, etc

Ok how about:

When you must choose one but not the other, would you rather be polite to keep the peace, or speak the entire truth even if it hurts? 

As it is written, it appears to be slanted toward the opinion of the poll writer, which is fine as long as we acknowledge that bias. 

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We also need to address the intentions of reporting "the truth".   Sometimes there is no need to say anything as it serves no purpose.  Claiming to speak "the truth" which consequently hurts someone unnecessarily is not part of the ethics of "the truth".  At the worst, it can be an excuse to be gratuitously cruel.

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If you can't be positive while speaking the truth, it's better to remain quiet. 

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The verse in Arabic is wrong above.

This is the correct and complete verse.  

If a mod reads this please delete the one above and add this text.  Thank you.

 يا أَيُّهَا الَّذينَ آمَنوا كونوا قَوّامينَ بِالقِسطِ شُهَداءَ لِلَّهِ وَلَو عَلىٰ أَنفُسِكُم أَوِ الوالِدَينِ وَالأَقرَبينَ ۚ إِن يَكُن غَنِيًّا أَو فَقيرًا فَاللَّهُ أَولىٰ بِهِما ۖ فَلا تَتَّبِعُوا الهَوىٰ أَن تَعدِلوا ۚ وَإِن تَلووا أَو تُعرِضوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ بِما تَعمَلونَ خَبيرًا

 

 

Brother @Reza

This was where the discussion originally took place and I had mentioned who has both qualities.

 

How is a human being supposed to improve or do better, if some people are advocating to be silent instead of truth telling.  I mean let's talk about the simplest things, for example, cooking.  And this hits home.  My cooking in the beginning and until now some dishes don't come out good.  If my dh doesn't tell me where I went wrong, how am I ever supposed to improve if I'm sensitive?

 

 Once a foster sister of the Holy Prophet (S) came to him. He became very happy to see her, spread out his sheet for her and made her sit thereon and talked happily with her. When she left, her brother arrived. The Holy Prophet (S) did not display as much welcome for him. When companions asked about it he said: “She is more respectful to her father.” [Hayat al-Qulub, Vol. 2]

 

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Edited by Laayla

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I can be rather direct and come across as blunt and aloof. But Iam aware that we should strike a balance so that we can get our point across nicely, for our own sake. So a lot of the time now I opt out of saying anything at all

I admit I have bad communication skills I Hope I can improve whilst still being my true self 

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9 hours ago, notme said:

Ok how about:

When you must choose one but not the other, would you rather be polite to keep the peace, or speak the entire truth even if it hurts? 

As it is written, it appears to be slanted toward the opinion of the poll writer, which is fine as long as we acknowledge that bias. 

Depends on the situation and it’s necessity 

if I’m in front of all wahabis, what good will speaking the truth do? 

Time and place are key here

and we as humans can miss the mark a lot of the time 

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Why do you guys write "truth"?

It is either truth or it is not truth, theres nothing called "truth".

Also in the case of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar you are obligated to perform it, not 3 months after it happens, right there and then. This is wajib regardless of it will make the person hearing it happy or sad.

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41 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Why do you guys write "truth"?

It is either truth or it is not truth, theres nothing called "truth".

Also in the case of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar you are obligated to perform it, not 3 months after it happens, right there and then. This is wajib regardless of it will make the person hearing it happy or sad.

Could you explain more the latter half you’re saying? Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Ralvi said:

Could you explain more the latter half you’re saying? Thanks!

If for example your sitting with a Muslim and he starts to do gheeba, your are obligated under the wajib duty of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar to ask him to either stop doing gheeba or to remove yourself if he does not stop. This is regardless of if he will be happy or sad about you saying that. This is the truth of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) given through the holy Qur'an.

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It’s one think to speak the truth, but another thing to be a complete jerk. Speaking the truth doesn’t mean hurting people’s feelings and doesn’t give anyone the justification to be rude. 

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38 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

If for example your sitting with a Muslim and he starts to do gheeba, your are obligated under the wajib duty of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar to ask him to either stop doing gheeba or to remove yourself if he does not stop. This is regardless of if he will be happy or sad about you saying that. This is the truth of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) given through the holy Qur'an.

This is something entirely different than what the original poll was. In the example you provided, yes, you must speak the truth, but if you do it rudely, even if you’re enjoining good and forbidding evil, no one will listen to you.  

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Sure, we're obligated to enjoin good and forbid evil, but how far does that obligation go? For example, if your grandfather makes a racist or sexist comment, are you obligated to correct him, or must you "respect your elders"? Or does the correct action depend on the specific circumstances? 

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This is something entirely different than what the original poll was. In the example you provided, yes, you must speak the truth, but if you do it rudely, even if you’re enjoining good and forbidding evil, no one will listen to you.  

Sometimes it is not necessarily about if the person listens to you or not, rather it is about you doing right by yourself.

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2 hours ago, IbnSina said:

If for example your sitting with a Muslim and he starts to do gheeba, your are obligated under the wajib duty of amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar to ask him to either stop doing gheeba or to remove yourself if he does not stop. This is regardless of if he will be happy or sad about you saying that. This is the truth of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) given through the holy Qur'an.

Yeah I agree, Iam talking about other situations.

like if your praying alongside Sunnis, I can’t really come up to them say that the truth is praying with your hands by your side and your kalma is not the truth. It would only cause infighting honestly

So time and place 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

Sure, we're obligated to enjoin good and forbid evil, but how far does that obligation go? For example, if your grandfather makes a racist or sexist comment, are you obligated to correct him, or must you "respect your elders"? Or does the correct action depend on the specific circumstances? 

We can approach gently I would say 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Now I understand the threads like GHB and John McCain why members answered the way they did.

But they never went back and spoke against the individual.

So this part of the statement is totally lost. 

as the "truth" will reveal itself in more indirect means at a later time

You cannot guarantee yourself that there is a later.

You have the opportunity to speak the truth during the time frame.  Once that time frame elapses, the event is forgotten about.

Time is essential.

Brother @IbnSina you know why they put truth in quotations?  It's because what we see as truth, others won't consider it truth as well.  For example, you and I believe in Rasoul Allah as the last messenger of Allah, ask a devout Christian they don't see it as truth.

It's also like the saying, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.  Different people see different truths.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah
Edited by Laayla

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Guest Umm Amira

Speaking the truth in a sincere, non-hurtful way with evidence and kindness.

I know that's not an option on the poll but that is the best method. 

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Salaams, 

While reading this thread, I just to quickly ask, does anyone know if there are any Shia sources for a Hadith from the Holy Prophet (p) where he states: “kindness is a mark of faith and whoever is not kind has no faith”. 

I only seem to come accross Sunni sources. If someone  could let me know that would be great. 

Many thanks in advance,

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5 hours ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

I don't agree with the options.

 

For example the first option" no matter the context " , this would never be a option because context is always important.

Poll choices aren't meant to be complete reflections of reality. They require some suspension of belief and have to be taken at face value. If that's unacceptable to some, then don't vote.

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