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Absolution of Yazid - Tabari

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

So essentially you will defend unconditionally all bani hashim but not say they are infallible? Sounds like what Sunnis do for all sahaba 

I think what he is saying is that we should be careful in what sources we use. Same sources that mention 600 wives if Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) can also disparage other Banu Hashim specifically the ones close to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

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3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

, tabari collected reports from pro uthmani pro zubayri  pro alid sources thsts a given fact no argument there 

I think if Tabari used pro-Alid sources for Damascus, he would have included both versions of the account. For example, "Yazid is the best" and "Yazid is the worst" - both from Sukainah but he only included the "best" version of the narration.

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5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I think if Tabari used pro-Alid sources for Damascus, he would have included both versions of the account. For example, "Yazid is the best" and "Yazid is the worst" - both from Sukainah but he only included the "best" version of the narration.

I'm not qualified to give a judgment on that narration 

I'd be careful to accept anything from a girl child who just saw her whole family massacred as a general principle 

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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

My mistake - I confused the 2. Malik never made it, Mohammed bin Abi Bakr made it but was killed, stuffed in a donkey and burned.

It seemed like you were implying that Abdullah bun Jaffar shouldnt be considered "good" because he gave bad advice to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). We can scratch the whole conversation about "bad" advice since we both agree it does not indicate Abdullah bin Jaffar being pro-Umawi.

My opinion of Abdullah is poor not because of what he did after sulh Hasan but primarily because his lack lustre performance before it in govt of Imam Ali and Hasan

He being son of jafar should be amongst the foremost generals of Imams ready to lead any campaign or expedition like ibn hannafiyah but sadly he is not 

His being close to muawiyah after sulh is no secret either , not that neccesarily meant he was disloyal to Alid cause earlier but then same benefit of doubt should be extended to all of Alis supporters 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I think what he is saying is that we should be careful in what sources we use. Same sources that mention 600 wives if Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) can also disparage other Banu Hashim specifically the ones close to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

But then they would disparage all banu hashim close to Imam why just pick on Abdullah ?as I mentioned his brother , and most  sons of Abbas, and others inc Muhammad b abi bakr , jada b hubaira are praised repeatedly for their piety and bravery 

But yes all sources are to be treated with caution 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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5 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I'm not qualified to give a judgment on that narration 

I'd be careful to accept anything from a girl child who just saw her whole family massacred as a general principle 

But Tabari and Qummi have both included her narrations. Both could be wrong but both can't be right.

5 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

My opinion of Abdullah is poor not because of what he did after sulh Hasan but primarily because his lack lustre performance before it in govt of Imam Ali and Hasan

He being son of jafar should be amongst the foremost generals of Imams ready to lead any campaign or expedition like ibn hannafiyah but sadly he is not 

Wasn't he one of 4 lieutenants? Others being Imam Hasan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), Mohammed-e-Hanafiya. He was 4th simply because the other 3 were better.

5 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

His being close to muawiyah after sulh is no secret either , not that neccesarily meant he was disloyal to Alid cause earlier but then same benefit of doubt should be extended to all of Alis supporters 

Sure but it would be a stretch to call Tabari a supporter of Ali which is the topic at hand.

5 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

But then they would disparage all banu hashim close to Imam why just pick on Abdullah ?as I mentioned his brother , and most  sons of Abbas, and others inc Muhammad b abi bakr , jada b hubaira are praised repeatedly for their piety and bravery 

But yes all sources are to be treated with caution 

Yes but Abdullah was closer to Imam Ali and more famous for his generosity, etc.

I still fail to see how Abdullah bin Jaffar is tied to this topic which is specifically about Tabari. 

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On 2/26/2019 at 9:43 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

But Tabari and Qummi have both included her narrations. Both could be wrong but both can't be right.

Wasn't he one of 4 lieutenants? Others being Imam Hasan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), Mohammed-e-Hanafiya. He was 4th simply because the other 3 were better.

Sure but it would be a stretch to call Tabari a supporter of Ali which is the topic at hand.

Yes but Abdullah was closer to Imam Ali and more famous for his generosity, etc.

I still fail to see how Abdullah bin Jaffar is tied to this topic which is specifically about Tabari. 

A child who is quite understandably suffering from pTSD is not a reliable witness medically speaking.

Btw who is this daughter of Imam that you are referring to? Do u have a bio on her ?

Ibn jafar was a diversion indeed. But fact remains his poor advice cost Egypt and the whole war arguably,  my opinion stated above 

What 4 lieutenant's? What that a political or military position or a spiritual station in hadith ? don’t know 

Was ibn jafar a general in any battle / raid or governor? Maybe he was I missed it...

, I have no opinion on sectarian views of tabari so u can continue discussing others 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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7 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

A child who is quite understandably suffering from pTSD is not a reliable witness medically speaking.

Btw who is this daughter of Imam that you are referring to? Do u have a bio on her ?

 

Earlier on in this thread, @haideriam said that we should consider that if a scholar includes a narration from someone, then that scholar wold have done his due diligence to verify the narration was authentic. 

Tabari and Qummi refer to her as just Sukainah. She could be "Sukainah bint Al-Hussain" or "Sukainah bint Ali".

As far as PTSD goes, even adults could suffer from it so we could reject all narrations from the Ahlul Bayt between Karbala » Damascus » Madinah, correct?

7 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Ibn jafar was a diversion indeed. But fact remains his poor advice cost Egypt and the whole war arguably,  my opinion stated above

Egypt was lost after Siffin so it is too much of a stretch to say the whole war was lost because of this one recommendation. Additionally had Malik made it to Egypt, he may have been able to defeat Amr Al-Aas.

7 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

What 4 lieutenant's? What that a political or military position or a spiritual station in hadith ? don’t know 

Was ibn jafar a general in any battle / raid or governor? Maybe he was I missed it... 

In Jamal, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), Muhammad Hanfiya and Abdullah bin Jafar.

He was not a general in any battle.

 

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15 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Earlier on in this thread, @haideriam said that we should consider that if a scholar includes a narration from someone, then that scholar wold have done his due diligence to verify the narration was authentic. 

Tabari and Qummi refer to her as just Sukainah. She could be "Sukainah bint Al-Hussain" or "Sukainah bint Ali".

As far as PTSD goes, even adults could suffer from it so we could reject all narrations from the Ahlul Bayt between Karbala » Damascus » Madinah, correct?

Egypt was lost after Siffin so it is too much of a stretch to say the whole war was lost because of this one recommendation. Additionally had Malik made it to Egypt, he may have been able to defeat Amr Al-Aas.

In Jamal, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), Muhammad Hanfiya and Abdullah bin Jafar.

He was not a general in any battle.

 

I'm not expert on these book so cannot say what scholars thought esp these 2 when they wrote this 

Im guessing this is sukayna bint Hussain who was later married to musab b zubair,  she must be very young at that time.

Children + PTSD makes them  more suspect esp when we have a case one witness narrating conflicting accounts.Sometimes survivors also exhibit Stockholm syndrome , so there are multiple variables.God knows best , my opinion don’t take any narrations from her at all

Egypt was the richest province to all Mediterranean empires esp when there was turmoil due to khawarij in Iraq the second richest province, without revenues and grain no standing armies that means ability to fight Syrians severely diminished.What does siffin have to do with the loss of Egypt?

 Ashtar was appointed on ibn jafar Recs too ? Regardless damage was done the whole province was in open revolt.If you remember a lot of staunch Shias in Egypt had been killed with ibn abibakr so the vacuum left had been filled with amr b aaas agents who had many prior contacts there 

These are the 4 closest Male relatives but did they have official designations 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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23 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Earlier on in this thread, @haideriam said that we should consider that if a scholar includes a narration from someone, then that scholar wold have done his due diligence to verify the narration was authentic. 

 

Extremely flattered that my writings have become a hujjah for my brother @ShiaMan14

Kindly connect me to what I said but this is typical way of thinking in isolation and without context.

This must have been a line of questioning for we have 'zaeef' ahadith too and this has nothing to do with a scholar, more to do with individual ahadith and their narrators. 

And for this bias comes to the fore and paid script writers of which I know many. 

I have still got to reply to your earlier post but when time permits InshaAllah. 

Edited by haideriam

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On 3/3/2019 at 6:10 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Earlier on in this thread, @haideriam said that we should consider that if a scholar includes a narration from someone, then that scholar wold have done his due diligence to verify the narration was authentic. 

 

On 3/4/2019 at 5:18 PM, haideriam said:

Extremely flattered that my writings have become a hujjah for my brother @ShiaMan14

Kindly connect me to what I said but this is typical way of thinking in isolation and without context.

 

On 2/12/2019 at 2:35 PM, haideriam said:

If we can classify a narrator in the chain as weak or a liar etc, would the one narrating from him not have considered this for reporting from liars puts his own credibility at stake.

 

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 9:44 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

I'm not expert on these book so cannot say what scholars thought esp these 2 when they wrote this 

Im guessing this is sukayna bint Hussain who was later married to musab b zubair,  she must be very young at that time. 

You mean the butcher??? Tremendous age gap between them. Also didn't she die in Damascus unless you believe Hz Ruqayya died there and this daughter survived. 

On 3/4/2019 at 9:44 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

Children + PTSD makes them  more suspect esp when we have a case one witness narrating conflicting accounts.Sometimes survivors also exhibit Stockholm syndrome , so there are multiple variables.God knows best , my opinion don’t take any narrations from her at all 

Right, she must have been against Yazid but then developed Stockholm syndrome and started thinking Yazid was the best person on the world. Makes perfect sense!!!

On 3/4/2019 at 9:44 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

Egypt was the richest province to all Mediterranean empires esp when there was turmoil due to khawarij in Iraq the second richest province, without revenues and grain no standing armies that means ability to fight Syrians severely diminished.What does siffin have to do with the loss of Egypt?

You said "the whole war". I thought you meant the entire war between Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Muawiya. Please define "whole war".

On 3/4/2019 at 9:44 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

These are the 4 closest Male relatives but did they have official designations 

Abdullah was also noted for his standing with Ali in battles. Ibn Hajar quoted Muhammad as having said that Abdullah was like him in character and had taken him by the right hand and prayed to God to extend His mercy over the household of Abdullah bin Ja'far. During Ali's caliphate in Kufa, Abdullah was one of his four chief lieutenants (the other three were Ali's three eldest sons). When Husayn received a request from the men of Kufa to come and lead them, Abdullah urged him not to go unless the Kufans first overthrew their Umayyad magistrates. When Husayn nevertheless left on the expedition that ended at Karbala, Abdullah sent his young sons Aun and Muhammad with his wife, Husayn's sister Zainab.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-biography-of-Abdullah-ibn-jaffar-Dr.-sayed-ammar-nakshawani.155269/%3famp=1

 

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Whole war between Ali and muawiyah 

Nakhswani is quoting what source please clarify? And what does lieutenant mean in those times ? 

Musab the butcher is said to have married one daughter of husayn (عليه السلام) , not sure which one 

Age gap is irrelevant in those times 

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  On 3/4/2019 at 12:10 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

Earlier on in this thread, @haideriam said that we should consider that if a scholar includes a narration from someone, then that scholar wold have done his due diligence to verify the narration was authentic. 

 

  On 3/4/2019 at 11:18 PM, haideriam said:

Extremely flattered that my writings have become a hujjah for my brother @ShiaMan14

Kindly connect me to what I said but this is typical way of thinking in isolation and without context.

 

  On 2/12/2019 at 8:35 PM, haideriam said:

If we can classify a narrator in the chain as weak or a liar etc, would the one narrating from him not have considered this for reporting from liars puts his own credibility at stake.

 Two completely different things, kindly see if you can spot the difference @ShiaMan14  , this is where most of the problems stem from, incorrect understanding. 

Surprisingly,  and without connecting this to the above, this past week I have been dealing with quite a few people who either lack understanding and or lie and make excuses for taking wrong positions when they know they are wrong and in turn lying through their teeth but think if enough lies are spun and there is confusion created by kicking up dust that the actual gets fuddled.  The honorable and the semi honorable among them quickly realize the error of their ways and  correct, leading to peace for themselves and going on to get the job done. The evil among them keep slipping from one crevice to the other.   

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8 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Whole war between Ali and muawiyah 

Nakhswani is quoting what source please clarify? And what does lieutenant mean in those times ? 

Musab the butcher is said to have married one daughter of husayn (عليه السلام) , not sure which one 

Age gap is irrelevant in those times 

The war was really lost after Siffin, not Egypt.

Lieutenant = in charge of a group of soldiers be it infantry or cavalry.

So you went from guessing this Sukainah was married to The Butcher or A daughter of Hussain being married to the Butcher. Next, it might change to someone's daughter was married to Musab?

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On 3/9/2019 at 7:54 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

The war was really lost after Siffin, not Egypt.

Lieutenant = in charge of a group of soldiers be it infantry or cavalry.

So you went from guessing this Sukainah was married to The Butcher or A daughter of Hussain being married to the Butcher. Next, it might change to someone's daughter was married to Musab?

I know pro ummayyads propaganda was that  war was lost after siffin for Imam but reality is till 40 AH every ummayyad raid was repulsed despite the damage and muawiyah dared not venture outside of Syria expect sending marauders 

So ibn jafar was a lieutenant and not a general like you said earlier ? So clearly a low ranking officer? Or arabs in 7th century followed another ranking system in which lieutenant was the highest officers ?

If you look up wives of musab one of them is said to be daughter of Hussain why are so surprised at that?

He was given butcher nickname after his marriage 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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