Can Shia use Sunni Ahadith books as reference ?

[Hadi5]

We need support our beliefs by giving reference of traditions of holy Prophet saww and Qur'an.

Should Shia give references from Sunni books where Shias lack it.

@Sirius_Bright, @ShiaMan14 @notme

Edited February 4, 2019 by Hadi5

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

Should Shia give references from Sunni books where Shias lack it.

We normally don't, unless it's one of those oft repeated topics at the root of the Shia Sunni division like Fadak, martyrdom of Bibi Fatima (عليه السلام) etc and that's just to show them evidence from their books and not as a proof for us.

[Hadi5]

1 minute ago, starlight said:

We normally don't, unless it's one of those oft repeated topics at the root of the Shia Sunni division like Fadak, martyrdom of Bibi Fatima (عليه السلام) etc and that's just to show them evidence from their books and not as a proof for us.

Not where we are divided.

But to explain Islamic principle and wisdom by giving Sunni reference books.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

Not where we are divided.

But to explain Islamic principle and wisdom by giving Sunni reference books.

Haven't seen that. Can you quote some examples?

[3wliya_maryam]

I don’t see why there would be anything wrong with it

I have came across alot of Sunni traditions that Sunnis often refute

[Hadi5]

20 minutes ago, starlight said:

Haven't seen that. Can you quote some examples?

My question was should we do it'.Give reference from Sunni books.

Is there any problem.

[Hadi5]

22 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

I don’t see why there would be anything wrong with it

I have came across alot of Sunni traditions that Sunnis often refute

I think do didn't understood my question.

Is there any problem using Sunni reference to support Islamic belief and Devine wisdom.

[ShiaMan14]

@Hadi5

Salaam.

For us, there is no such thing as Sahih book. Each hadith is judged on its own merit be it from a Shia book or a Sunni book

[Hadi5]

46 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

@Hadi5

Salaam.

For us, there is no such thing as Sahih book. Each hadith is judged on its own merit be it from a Shia book or a Sunni book

My question was should Shia use Sunni hadith as reference to explain Islamic wisdom and source of guidence to Allah.

[ShiaMan14]

45 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

My question was should Shia use Sunni hadith as reference to explain Islamic wisdom and source of guidence to Allah.

I don't believe hadith is Shia or Sunni. It is either authentic or it is not regardless of what book it is in. You don't have to like the book but that is a different matter.

[Sirius_Bright]

If we want to prove anything to a Shia (our ourself), we have to use Shia books for reference. 

If we want to prove something to a Sunni then we should use Sunni books as reference. 

[haideriam]

41 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

If we want to prove anything to a Shia (our ourself), we have to use Shia books for reference. 

If we want to prove something to a Sunni then we should use Sunni books as reference. 

This is literally outdated now and was so 60s and early 70s in Pakistan. The Ahle Hadith/Salafi/Wahabbi/Deobandi etc have raised the bar in acquiring some research hence what Shiaman says below fits the bill better and is fair. The hadith has to be studied and researched on its own merit and not wishy washy thinking or bias or what our parents have told us. 

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I don't believe hadith is Shia or Sunni. It is either authentic or it is not regardless of what book it is in. You don't have to like the book but that is a different matter.

My only prayer that you abide by the same standard and logic when a more knowledgeable brother gives you his/their research into other topics

[Anonymous2144]

Shia Islam don’t lack anything it’s the other way around. Besides, Sunni references are not reliable nor authentic, except for a very few, which is nothing really. 

Btw those “authentic” references are proofed to be authentic by authentic Shi’a hadiths which don’t contradict the Qur'an. In other words no narrations from Sunni is reliable unless the same narrations is stated by trust worthy chains through Shi’a  hadiths to be authentic. 

I have this vibe ur a type person that badly wants Sunni-Shi’a unity. Here’s the thing the buddy, the so called Sunni sect is literally built on terrorism and is terrorism without a doubt, some Shi’a have trouble swallowing it even though there is clear proof. 

What I’m tying to say is, there’s no way Sunni and Shi’a can unite in a anyway but they can tolerate each other. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Anonymous2144

[Ali bin Hussein]

The mentality of Shia and Sunni hadith is wrong. All hadith are a recording, apply standards to authenticate them. And if 2 chains are sound the chain of Should Ahlul Bayt takes priority. If you stick to these principles then any source is fine.

But on a general note by applying that standard "Sunni" hadith have narrators who have emnity to Imam Ali. And "12er" hadith are from a much later period and gave weak chains. But All hadith collections have a mix. And chains and narrators can be disputed. It's why we have Islamic diversity.

[Hadi5]

2 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

If we want to prove anything to a Shia (our ourself), we have to use Shia books for reference. 

If we want to prove something to a Sunni then we should use Sunni books as reference. 

That is ok.

But if you want to prove some Islamic wisdom and deep message of Islam to invite humanity towards Allah .Is it good use Sunni source as reference to support it.

[Hadi5]

13 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Shia Islam don’t lack anything it’s the other way around. Besides, Sunni references are not reliable nor authentic, except for a very few, which is nothing really. 

Btw those “authentic” references are proofed to be authentic by authentic Shi’a hadiths which don’t contradict the Qur'an. In other words no narrations from Sunni is reliable unless the same narrations is stated by trust worthy chains through Shi’a  hadiths to be authentic. 

I have this vibe ur a type person that badly wants Sunni-Shi’a unity. Here’s the thing the buddy, the so called Sunni sect is literally built on terrorism and is terrorism without a doubt, some Shi’a have trouble swallowing it even though there is clear proof. 

What I’m tying to say is, there’s no way Sunni and Shi’a can unite in a anyway but they can tolerate each other. 

You mean Sunni references are weak and Shia should not rely on it.

Second your opinion is Sunni Shia can't unite.

But I feel otherwise. And I believe Sunni source too is  sufficient enough that it will guide one to Paradise and Allah.

[power]

12 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

But I feel otherwise. And I believe Sunni source too is  sufficient enough that it will guide one to Paradise and Allah.

Well that's your own opinion. Sunni hadiths are narrated, mostly by the companions whose veracity and accuracy is questioned.

[Hadi5]

32 minutes ago, power said:

Well that's your own opinion. Sunni hadiths are narrated, mostly by the companions whose veracity and accuracy is questioned.

Now if anybody (Shia scholars) narrat it as reference .

[power]

1 hour ago, Hadi5 said:

Now if anybody (Shia scholars) narrat it as reference .

depending on the contexts it referenced to. Moreover,  give me an example of a Shia scholar,  narrating Sunni hadith, for the Shia audience and we are compelled to abide by it in relation to hadith that leads to paradise?

[Sirius_Bright]

5 hours ago, haideriam said:

This is literally outdated now and was so 60s and early 70s in Pakistan. The Ahle Hadith/Salafi/Wahabbi/Deobandi etc have raised the bar in acquiring some research hence what Shiaman says below fits the bill better and is fair. The hadith has to be studied and researched on its own merit and not wishy washy thinking or bias or what our parents have told us. 

This is pretty basic approach be it 60s or today or tomorrow. You have to see your opponent and prove from his book. You cannot take on a Sunni/salafi with Al-Kafi. He'll laugh at you. 

[Sirius_Bright]

3 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

That is ok.

But if you want to prove some Islamic wisdom and deep message of Islam to invite humanity towards Allah .Is it good use Sunni source as reference to support it.

What Islamic wisdom and deep message you found in Sunni books that Shia books doesn't have? 

[Hadi5]

5 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

What Islamic wisdom and deep message you found in Sunni books that Shia books doesn't have? 

Yes. I am no one to find it.But I I saw in Books  witten by  great Shia scholars who gave references from Sunni source to prove teaching of Islam.

Waiting for your reply.

[Sirius_Bright]

3 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

Yes. I am no one to find it.But I I saw in Books  witten by  great Shia scholars who gave references from Sunni source to prove teaching of Islam.

As far as I'm concerned I won't be accepting those Sunni ahadith even if it's in a Shia books. 

[Hussaini1912]

11 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

We need support our beliefs by giving reference of traditions of holy Prophet saww and Qur'an.

Should Shia give references from Sunni books where Shias lack it.

@Sirius_Bright, @ShiaMan14 @notme

I used to take isl where there I learned Sunni hadiths and quoted them 

[Hadi5]

1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

As far as I'm concerned I won't be accepting those Sunni ahadith even if it's in a Shia books. 

I will now add something more.

The books are written not by ordinary Shia scholars but by top most.

[haideriam]

19 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

This is pretty basic approach be it 60s or today or tomorrow. You have to see your opponent and prove from his book. You cannot take on a Sunni/salafi with Al-Kafi. He'll laugh at you. 

Nopes, looks like 

1. it was a reply taking the topic into consideration that yes we can use their books as reference because a hadith is a hadith.  So there is no mention or indication of the bold and is conjured up from 'khayal'

2. Things did get more sophisticated after the 70s when previously one had only to quote their book and the goofs fell for it but now in a proper debate if you do that without checking on the authenticity or veracity of what you quote you might be in danger of being thrown out of the room and not taken seriously there after anymore. 

3. Knowledge is the 'miras' of the believer wherever it comes from, be they the unbelievers,  be they the prisoners of badr.

[Sirius_Bright]

2 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

The books are written not by ordinary Shia scholars but by top most.

I don't care brother. Even the top most Shia scholar (insert one from your choice) in the history of Shia was falliable. 

[Hadi5]

Just now, Sirius_Bright said:

I don't care brother. Even the top most Shia scholar (insert one from your choice) in the history of Shia was falliable. 

You  means they have misled Shia.Since they were top most maraja.

And only you are right 

Hope you will ask me names those scholars.

[ShiaMan14]

5 hours ago, haideriam said:

My only prayer that you abide by the same standard and logic when a more knowledgeable brother gives you his/their research into other topics

Thank you brother for the kind words. I also pray that you understand that knowledge without wisdom and understanding can be useless. Remember that most people in Umar bin Saad's army knew the stature and rank of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) yet only Hurr and a few others had the wisdom and understanding to switch sides.

[Sirius_Bright]

6 minutes ago, haideriam said:

1. it was a reply taking the topic into consideration that yes we can use their books as reference because a hadith is a hadith.  So there is no mention or indication of the bold and is conjured up from 'khayal'

We can use their book (a narration to be specific) as a reference only if that hadith is found in our books or the hadith is proven to be authentic from Qur'an, rijal and matn. This doesn't happen usually. 

9 minutes ago, haideriam said:

2. Things did get more sophisticated after the 70s when previously one had only to quote their book and the goofs fell for it but now in a proper debate if you do that without checking on the authenticity or veracity of what you quote you might be in danger of being thrown out of the room and not taken seriously there after anymore. 

I agree. Whatever we are providing in a debate should be checked for authenticity. This doesn't mean a narration with a weak chain becomes unauthentic. 

11 minutes ago, haideriam said:

3. Knowledge is the 'miras' of the believer wherever it comes from, be they the unbelievers,  be they the prisoners of badr.

Ahlul Bayt (ams) should be the source for any Islamic knowledge. 

[haideriam]

8 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Thank you brother for the kind words. I also pray that you understand that knowledge without wisdom and understanding can be useless. Remember that most people in Umar bin Saad's army knew the stature and rank of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) yet only Hurr and a few others had the wisdom and understanding to switch sides.

Did you both listen to the lecture I posted last night and linked you. You will see what wisdom is and how it comes to a person by practical actions and not wishy washy writings.

[Sirius_Bright]

6 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

You  means they have misled Shia.Since they were top most maraja.

That doesn't mean they misled the Shias. For eg. There are Sunni hadith in Meezanul Hikmah from Sunni book Kanzul ummal that Ayatullah Muhammadi Rayshahri has included. Those are more of Akhlaaqi ahadith. 

[Hadi5]

1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

That doesn't mean they misled the Shias. For eg. There are Sunni hadith in Meezanul Hikmah from Sunni book Kanzul ummal that Ayatullah Muhammadi Rayshahri has included. Those are more of Akhlaaqi ahadith. 

Not only ikhlaqi subject's.But also on Tawheed ,willayah and spirituality.

[haideriam]

4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

We can use their book (a narration to be specific) as a reference only if that hadith is found in our books or the hadith is proven to be authentic from Qur'an, rijal and matn. This doesn't happen usually. 

I agree. Whatever we are providing in a debate should be checked for authenticity. This doesn't mean a narration with a weak chain becomes unauthentic. 

Ahlul Bayt (ams) should be the source for any Islamic knowledge. 

1. Not true, a hadith is a hadith, see what Shiaman said to you or someone else above. The bold I highlight for what is your evidence/proof of above . How many books have you read for example and how many ahadith have you tried to compare and how many history books have you read for comparison to make such a wild assertion. You might be surprised at the similarity or possibly the jist of our similarities.

2. Did I say that brother but at the same time if it is wahid it is problematic to accept it as authentic.

3. Absolutely but how does it get to you from the Aimmah(as)[via narrators] and is not the fountainhead of this source the Holy Prophet(sawws)

[Sirius_Bright]

1 minute ago, Hadi5 said:

Not only ikhlaqi subject's.But also on Tawheed ,willayah and spirituality.

As I said, I personally don't prefer a hadith from a Sunni book. Maybe if it's proved to be correct regarding authenticity and matn.