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Jaane Rabb

Prophet's knowledge of the Qur'an

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4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:) The way you're interpreting the verses, then yes, one can even expect this type of thinking too.

Although I am not agreed with your interpretation of "daal" in that verse but a thought came in mind for a while:

How that blessed lostness was!!! In which Prophet was recognized as "Sadiq" and "Ameen". 

Everyone is "daal" before the Absolute Guide (Al-Hadi (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)). But this is not the way how He sends Prophets. 

Surah As-Saff, Verse 9:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse. (English - Shakir) 

And he was not left unattended, that he can be considered as lost:

Surah At-tur, Verse 48:

وَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ فَإِنَّكَ بِأَعْيُنِنَا

And wait patiently for the judgment of your Lord, for surely you are before Our eyes (English - Shakir) 

Surah Ad-Dhuha, Verse 3:

مَا وَدَّعَكَ رَبُّكَ وَمَا قَلَىٰ

Your Lord has not forsaken you, nor has He become displeased, (English - Shakir)

With such analogies and extrapolations ,  you can even "prove" that Trump is a female negro. Go for that.

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14 hours ago, Faruk said:

To become a Prophet one has to fulfill certain conditions but at the same time one is destined to become one.

I've thought about this. That Muhammad's [saw] conduct could be what had him [saw] be the chosen one if we were to take the view that he wasn't born a Prophet but was destined to become one. This is interesting:

[45:18Then We put you, [O Muhammad], on an ordained way concerning the matter [of religion]; so follow it and do not follow the inclinations of those who do not know.

14 hours ago, Faruk said:

And when he attained his maturity and became full grown, We granted hIm wisdom and knowledge; and thus do We reward those who do good (to others)."

Here's a portion of Musa's [a] conversation with Pharoah:

Go to Pharaoh and say, 'We are the messengers of the Lord of the worlds,
[Commanded to say], "Send with us the Children of Israel."'"
[Pharaoh] said, "Did we not raise you among us as a child, and you remained among us for years of your life?
And [then] you did your deed which you did, and you were of the ungrateful."
[Moses] said, "I did it, then, while I was of those astray.
So I fled from you when I feared you. Then my Lord granted me wisdom and prophethood and appointed me [as one] of the messengers.
And is this a favor of which you remind me - that you have enslaved the Children of Israel?"
[Qur'an 26:16-22]

So it seems Musa [a] attained his Prophethood later in life, but his mother knew about his [a] destiny beforehand:

[28:7] And We inspired to the mother of Moses, "Suckle him; but when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear and do not grieve. Indeed, We will return him to you and will make him [one] of the messengers."

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

What do you want to convey? 

That the Qur'an can explain itself and is the only infallible source available today.

We don't have the luxury of having a divinely appointed being accessible to us.

While ahadith do have some uses, I'd be wary of taking it as proof for fundamental beliefs given the issues surrounding it.

The Qur'an is protected. The hadith world is Satan's playground to try and distort the Qur'an. Verses with clear meanings being given an alternative meaning due to folan hadith.

It just seems bizarre to think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would send a book that couldn't guide man today, and that we'd need to refer to so-n-so's hadith collection transmitted by man for guidance.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

That the Qur'an can explain itself and is the only infallible source available today.

We don't have the luxury of having a divinely appointed being accessible to us.

While ahadith do have some uses, I'd be wary of taking it as proof for fundamental beliefs given the issues surrounding it.

The Qur'an is protected. The hadith world is Satan's playground to try and distort the Qur'an. Verses with clear meanings being given an alternative meaning due to folan hadith.

It just seems bizarre to think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would send a book that couldn't guide man today, and that we'd need to refer to so-n-so's hadith collection transmitted by man for guidance.

That makes zero sense since Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself has said in Qur'an that all thr verses are not same and cannot be understood by us. 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 7:
هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
(English - Shakir)

 

وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ - And those firmly rooted in knowledge - refers to Aimma (ams). 

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8 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

That makes zero sense since Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself has said in Qur'an that all thr verses are not same and cannot be understood by us. 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 7:
هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
(English - Shakir)

 

وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ - And those firmly rooted in knowledge - refers to Aimma (ams). 

Those firmly rooted in knowledge say we believe in it etc etc..... You hacked that verse my friend.

الراسخون في العلم

is not applicable to the previous statement. 

Salam

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12 hours ago, 786:) said:

Again...you present hadith to put down clear verses from the Qur'an. If that is your perogative then feel free to continue down that path.

The hadith is used to understand the verses of Qur'an only. 

12 hours ago, Fink said:

No where does the Qur'an say Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taught the Qur'an before the creation of man. There is absolutely no such Arabic conjunction that denotes or necessitates order in Surah Alrahman. 

You keep viewing the paper book available with you and conclude the meanings through it, we are watching at the pre-revealed existence of Qur'an:

إِنَّهُ لَقُرْآنٌ كَرِيمٌ {77}

فِي كِتَابٍ مَكْنُونٍ {78}

لَا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا الْمُطَهَّرُونَ {79}

and in 85:22 too

We are looking at the intellectual & spiritual nature of Qur'an and its intellectual grasp prior to its revelation. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Fink said:

Those firmly rooted in knowledge say we believe in it etc etc..... You hacked that verse my friend.

الراسخون في العلم

is not applicable to the previous statement. 

Salam

He is the One Who Revealed the Book unto you; from it are Decisive Verses - these are the Mother of the Book; and others are Allegorical. Then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity, so they are following what is allegorical from it, seeking the Fitna and seeking its (personal) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in the Knowledge. They are saying, ‘We believe in it. It is all from the Presence of our Lord’. And none (would) mention except those with the understanding [3:7]

I found an alternate translation which includes الراسخون في العلم as well and continues as 'They'. 

We'll need an Arabic expert to figure that out. 

Also, there are number of hadith which confirms both Allah and Ahlul Bayt (ams) knowing the interpretation. 

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34 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

You keep viewing the paper book available with you and conclude the meanings through it, we are watching at the pre-revealed existence of Qur'an:

إِنَّهُ لَقُرْآنٌ كَرِيمٌ {77}

فِي كِتَابٍ مَكْنُونٍ {78}

لَا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا الْمُطَهَّرُونَ {79}

and in 85:22 too

We are looking at the intellectual & spiritual nature of Qur'an and its intellectual grasp prior to its revelation. 

 

Salam

I don’t know what that means as it relates to the claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taught the Qur'an before he created man.

 

Edited by Fink

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:bismillah:
 

إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ {3}

[Shakir 43:3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you may understand.

وَإِنَّهُ فِي أُمِّ الْكِتَابِ لَدَيْنَا لَعَلِيٌّ حَكِيمٌ {4}

[Shakir 43:4] And surely it is in the original of the Book with Us, truly elevated, full of wisdom.


Aliyyun Hakim (asws), The one famous as Qur'an-e-Natiq here in this world.  

 

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@Salsabeel @Sirius_Bright

So just to clarify the position please.

You're saying that Muhammad [saw] did have [some or all?] knowledge of the Qur'an before the Prophetic mission commenced?

And that verses that say otherwise require their proper interpretation which can only be acquired from hadith [sayings of Ahlul Bayt]?

According to your belief, when did Muhammad [saw] have this knowledge? When he was in noor form or when he was born into this world or some years before the Prophetic mission?

Just to understand your position further. Are you of the belief that Muhammad [saw] is part of the elite/exalted party [aleen] that existed before any other creation?

Thanks

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18 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

You're saying that Muhammad [saw] did have [some or all?] knowledge of the Qur'an before the Prophetic mission commenced?

 

First of all, as a brotherly advise, I suggest you to include the "Aal" when writing the salutation. Instead of writing (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) salallaho alaihe wassallam, make it your habbit to write (saww) salallaho alaihe wa aalehe wasallam or you could simply denote that with a capital S.

What has been said is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) send Prophets with guidance. It is not the case that He randomly pick unlettered person from humanity who were supposedly lost (daal) at any point of time & then He guides them & chose them for delivering divine message. 

I believe on the words of Prophet (S) is, as he said, ana madinatul ilm (I am the city of knowledge). And I have no doubt about it nor on his words "Awwalo ma khalaq Allaho noori" and nor on his words "kunto nabiyyan wa Adama baynal maa'e watteen". He is Awwal-ul-Aabideen as well as Awwal-ul-Muslimeen as per Qur'an. 

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