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ShiaMan14

Migration of Imam Hussain (as)

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SMHA why are you posting without a response brother. Are you not willing to learn so that if tomorrow a hard core wahabbi asked you to explain what is being discussed, 

would you start to copy paste and printing out stuff that had hardly any relevance to where the discussion is. 

It would look absolutely disgraceful to the general public and to the youtube viewers.

You would certainly give a good name to the Shias in being flabbergasted at just a few questions. 

Raise your game brother and don't get left behind.

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13 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

While there does not seem to be any reason for me to engage in this discussion, especially after multiple confessions by the OP that he is not well-versed, he has not studied enough, or is a layman

The thing with knowledge is that the more you gain, the more you realize how little you've gained. Then again, there are some who read a couple of books and think they know it all - there is a word for such people....

13 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

probably thinks Imam Husayn (a) wanted to bring a reform in the nation of his grandfather (p) by giving out roses on the road to Kufa,

So you present an Imam who is confrontational and got himself killed via a political calculation.

You presume to present (on my behalf) an Imam who tried to bring reform by giving out roses on the road to Kufa.

Even your imagination of my imagination is better than the fake reality you present.

13 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

While there does not seem to be any reason for me to engage in this discussion, especially after multiple confessions by the OP that he is not well-versed, he has not studied enough, or is a layman, and probably thinks Imam Husayn (a) wanted to bring a reform in the nation of his grandfather (p) by giving out roses on the road to Kufa, I will share all the reports on Imam Husayn (a) being in disagreement with Imam Hasan (a) initially on the Sulh, but later accepting his position. Those interested and with some basic knowledge of Arabic (bare minimum requirement for even entering and concerning yourself with such extensive discussions) can read it themselves:

You need to learn to read better. I wrote:

On 1/26/2019 at 2:37 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Neither Imam Hasan nor Imam Hussain wanted the truce but they had no choice other than this. However, there is absolutely no evidence that after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) contemplated an uprising which you are alluding towards. Also, if Kufans did write to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), it would be their prerogative and in no way does it implicate Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as a revolter.

Trying to confuse people I suppose. Try harder.

13 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from a fairy-tale theology.

And from overly confrontational Imams as well. Right???

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9 hours ago, haideriam said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Whilst the deep down intention is appreciated but the the methodology is so so counter productive. This trolling, ad hominems , blanket over crowding shows that there are other reasons in play which have overtaken your primary pure intent.  And one of the biggest reason of these negative traits which includes lying by some to give false airs is complete and utter lack of knowledge. And it is very easy to slip from mal-intent to lying for both are in the negative arc. 

There are two ways of dealing with this and surely it is not debating with brother Ibn al-Hussain for his knowledge is way beyond all of us which is Shiaman14, Salsabeel, S.M.H.A, Sirius Bright and myself that when we try and debate we expose 2 things, our ignorance and our untamed ego and to the wider audience we begin to look and seen like a cult. 

Shiaism is knowledge based not jahalat or any negative trait based and as soon as you see one of the jahalat traits manifest just remember you are moving away from haq rather than defending it. 

I only wish like the years past that we either had some other senior students of the Hawzas or some maulana partake with brother Ibn al Hussain for otherwise it is exposing our weakness of running away or blanketing the issues. 

I pray this is taken with a positive understanding.

:ws:

Knowledge and wisdom are completely different. You are free to accept @Ibn al-Hussain's opinion that the Imams were confrontational.

I choose not to do so. Furthermore, I believe it is a deliberate action to portray a confrontational Imam who made a mistake and got himself killed. Your loyalties lie with him rather than with haq and so be it. But don't presume for a second that I have to even consider what you have to say.

Shiaism is not just based on knowledge. It is based on wisdom (aql). What sets us apart from the Sunnis and the other religions is in our use of AQL, not knowledge. Otherwise you would have to bow down to every hafiz-e-Qur'an.

While the number of posts by him and volume of books read may impress you, they don't impress me one bit because he has not been able to put his knowledge to good use.

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6 hours ago, 786:) said:

Why is it so far fetched for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to have a difference of opinion as his brother? Why can’t they have a variance in personality? Why do we always take the human out of the Imams when it comes to their day-to-day and try to portray them as some sort of robots.

Nothing wrong with their disagreement. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was an advisor to Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). It was Imam Hasan's perogative to listen to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or not. My specific post was:

On 1/26/2019 at 2:37 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Neither Imam Hasan nor Imam Hussain wanted the truce but they had no choice other than this. However, there is absolutely no evidence that after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام), Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) contemplated an uprising which you are alluding towards. Also, if Kufans did write to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), it would be their prerogative and in no way does it implicate Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as a revolter.

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3 hours ago, haideriam said:

SMHA why are you posting without a response brother. Are you not willing to learn so that if tomorrow a hard core wahabbi asked you to explain what is being discussed, 

would you start to copy paste and printing out stuff that had hardly any relevance to where the discussion is. 

It would look absolutely disgraceful to the general public and to the youtube viewers.

You would certainly give a good name to the Shias in being flabbergasted at just a few questions. 

Raise your game brother and don't get left behind.

A hard core wahabi does not believe in the infallibility of our Imams, neither does Ibn Al-Hussain.

br @S.M.H.A. and I have taken care of most of the hardcore wahabis on ShiaChat and elsewhere.

Why are you such a fanboy?

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10 hours ago, 786:) said:

Why is it so far fetched for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to have a difference of opinion as his brother? Why can’t they have a variance in personality? Why do we always take the human out of the Imams when it comes to their day-to-day and try to portray them as some sort of robots.

Because the whole portrayal of Imams having a consistent view on all positions is essential to prove that Imams from 1st to 12th were divinely appointed.

Any inconsistencies present in available historical records can easily be ironed out by resorting to the same tactics that Sunni muhadith resort to 

1 these were work of ummayyad agents 

2 ALL caliphs prohibited mentioning any favorable reports about Ahlul Bayt so that means the only default position is everything that imami twelver now believe has to be true it just was suppressed 

3 these historical reports have imperfect isnads 

So we can put dogma before available evidence and just make it fit our agenda by selectively looking at sources 

This is a ploy used by almost all religious communities who pride themselves on having a scholarly tradition 

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Salam 

Reading printed knowledge (from books written by humans) with Aql will lead to wisdom in most cases.

No matter how much knowledge a person gain through readings, if he fails to use his Aql to verify the written knowledge then he lacks wisdom to understand the unwritten truth.

The Prophet was not efficient in reading and writings, but yet he was given the true knowledge.  Many failed to understand him.

I remembered a case when Allama Tabatabaei, who has read thousands of books, and was writing a tafsir of certain ayats. He wanted to know the conditions of the people in reference to certain ayats.  The books did not help him. He was blessed with a dream afterward. And he saw the truth.  Then he understood.

Even when a person gains wisdom, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not make him to see the truth, he will not.

When Imam Ali Zainul Abidin was on chain and in street of Sham, many people were cursing them.  Then Imam asked them whether they read Qur'an about Ahlul Bayt? Then Imam told them, we are the Ahlul Bayt.  Why are you guys cursing!

When you have Qur'an saying " Ahlul Bayt were cleaned" in surah 33:33.  To say they contradicts each other, it a blatant insults to wisdom and unwritten truth.

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13 hours ago, haideriam said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Whilst the deep down intention is appreciated but the the methodology is so so counter productive. This trolling, ad hominems , blanket over crowding shows that there are other reasons in play which have overtaken your primary pure intent.  And one of the biggest reason of these negative traits which includes lying by some to give false airs is complete and utter lack of knowledge. And it is very easy to slip from mal-intent to lying for both are in the negative arc. 

There are two ways of dealing with this and surely it is not debating with brother Ibn al-Hussain for his knowledge is way beyond all of us which is Shiaman14, Salsabeel, S.M.H.A, Sirius Bright and myself that when we try and debate we expose 2 things, our ignorance and our untamed ego and to the wider audience we begin to look and seen like a cult. 

Shiaism is knowledge based not jahalat or any negative trait based and as soon as you see one of the jahalat traits manifest just remember you are moving away from haq rather than defending it. 

I only wish like the years past that we either had some other senior students of the Hawzas or some maulana partake with brother Ibn al Hussain for otherwise it is exposing our weakness of running away or blanketing the issues. 

I pray this is taken with a positive understanding.

:ws:

Salam brother 

You have very big heart and your humility is really refreshing to all of us here 

I'm deeply indebted that you post and continue to remind upstart pencil pushers like me that we are mortal human beings driven by our arrogant egos 

Forgive me if I said something inaccurate 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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On 1/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

This discussion has truly lost scope of itself if we're now trying to discuss the motivations and causes of Karbala. I believe Islah has only been mentioned in exactly one sermon, while it is very clearly from the Imam refusing to be bound in allegiance to Yazid to him going to to Kufa when offered leadership of that city (or deciding to go to Yemen where he had a more reliable support base) that he saw the leadership of the Ummah as his right wrongfully in the hands of Yazid. He said as such in sermons:

أيها الناس، إنكم إن تتقوا الله، وتعرفوا الحق لأهله يكن أرضى لله، ونحن أهل البيت أولى بولاية هذا الأمر من هؤلاء المدعين ما ليس لهم، والسائرين فيكم بالجور والعدوان، فإن أنتم كرهتمونا وجهلتم حقنا وكان رأيكم الآن على غير ما أتتني به كتبكم انصرفت عنكم 

Tarikh al-Tabari

I posted 2 quotes where betterment of community or similar words are used so please re-check the number of sermons this is mentioned.

Secondly, while the above is answered on PG1 of this thread, I don’t mind copying'n'pasting just for you (see below):

On 1/26/2019 at 2:37 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

how is it confrontational if Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is presented with 2 equally unacceptable choices - bayah to Yazeed was unacceptable; death without trying to preserve life is also not allowed so Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) chose the 3rd option and left Medina. Saving one's life is an Islamic edict. Given an untenable situation, Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) chose migration - that is the very definition of someone who wants to avoid confrontation.

Imam Hussain's life was in danger so he migrated to Makkah exactly like when the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) life was in danger, he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) migrated to Medina.
When Imam Hussain's life was in danger in Makkah, he chose migration again just liked the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The only difference is that the Ansar invited the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to Medina while Kufans invited Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) to Kufa. If anything Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) tried his best to avoid confrontation. The fact that Kufans wanted Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as their leader for a revolution is upon them and in no way an indication that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was on his way to confront Yazid or Ibn Ziyad or Ibn Sa'ad.
 

 

On 1/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

That he was trying to seize Khilafa seriously seems like an uncontroversial aspect of this, if he wanted Islah and a re-institution of the Sunnah (which he clearly did) after having accused the Umawis of corruption, irreligiousness, and seeding immorality, how do you think he would do that? Go to Kufah and send out letters asking Yazid nicely? Is that why he was looking for where he had a strong military support? Or gathering followers along his route to Kufah? Or insisting on his right and discrediting the Umawis as legitimate rulers which would work against their stable rule of the Ummah? 

And then when you have later traditions about how Imam Husayn was meant to install the divine government (from al-Sadiq), I seriously have a hard time understanding how this even needs to be a discussion. You're seriously antagonizing @Ibn al-Hussain for this?

I asked Abu Hadith aka @Ibn al-Hussain to provide 1 sermon from Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) where he says he is rising to take over the Khalifa. I provided a sermon where he said his intent was not rebellion.

If Imam's intent was rebellion, he wouldnot have left with ihs family but an army and most importantly his sermon before leaving Makkah would have talked about the glories of war rather than a trip marked for death.

Imam's rise was:
The Imam continued: "This movement of mine is not on account of stubbornness, rebellion, worldly passions or instigation by Satan. It is also not my object to create trouble or to oppress anyone. The only thing which invites me to this great movement is that I should reform the affairs of the followers of my grandfather, eradicate corruption, undertake enjoining to do good and restraining from evil and follow the tradition of my grandfather, the Prophet of Allah and my father, Ali".
Imam Hussain also writes, "I am not going out for merry-making and amusement or to create mischief. I am also not perusing the path of oppression". He adds: "I have come out to reform the followers of my grandfather".

The fact that Caliphate is a Divine appointment applies from 1st --> 12th Imam...not a newsflash.

As for antagonizing @Ibn al-Hussain, are you his appointed mouthpiece or president of his fan club? Is he a 5-yr old girl from the 11th century who cannot speak for himself? (I am only using his words he used for Hz Zainab (عليه السلام) so don't taze me brother).

On 1/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I actually believe that you have read as little as you say you have.

Someone asked Imam Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) if he is an aalim (scholar). He responded that he was not jahil (uneducated).

When you reach a certain amount of knowledge, you too will realize that you know nothing. It comes with maturity.

On 1/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Yeah, it's pretty clear from how he's mentioned in the ahadith to the actions he took in his life. It's his prerogative to be confrontational, he was the Imam and God's representative. I'm really having a hard time understanding how you interpret all the history and traditions we have. I'm actually curious if you'll use my response to this as a reason not not have to address any of the serious points I mention because now I'm a seditious muqassir in your mind.

It surely is the Imam's prerogative to be confrontational or defensive. @Ibn al-Hussain does not get to decide that for any of us. Nor does he get to mix facts with fiction to create his own version of the 'truth'

If the @Ibn al-Hussain fan club actually had AQL and understanding of faith (deen), you would realize that Imam was the very opposite of confrontational. He tried his best to avoid war. Given that he would not give bayah to Yazeed, his other option was migration similar to his grand father (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which he did from city to city. Now, because the fan club is quite immature and has very limited aql, you will default to "Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) should have given bayah to Yazeed". But if he was going to do that, why would he even leave Madina to begin with?

On 1/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I'm actually curious if you'll use my response to this as a reason not not have to address any of the serious points I mention because now I'm a seditious muqassir in your mind.

I am curious as well. Quranists, Wahabis, Reformers and now the @Ibn Al-Hussain Fan club all choose to think for me. It always makes me laugh. You can barely think for yourself so don't try to think for me as well. I say this all due respect of course but simply repeating someone's words doesn't make you smart.

You can ask the other member of the Fan Club ( @haiderIam ) for confirmation that I do not shy away from responding but remember I always give better than I get so if you want to go down this road, by all means. But then don't act like a 5-yr old girl from the 11-century and threaten me with bans or report me, etc.

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I am really confused at this point.

@haideriam is mad at me because I am being confrontational with @Ibn al-Hussain.

I am mad at @Ibn al-Hussain because he is calling Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) confrontational.

If Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was confrontational, then am I not simply following his sunnah?

So @haideriam is mad at me for following Imam Hussain's (عليه السلام) sunnah? 

I am so confused. Should I follow Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or not?

I mean @Ibn al-Hussain literally means son of Hussain. I guess I could refer to him as Ibn Al-Confronter.

Perhaps  @Ibn Al-Ja'abi can resolve this conundrum. 

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Quote

Acknowledgement of Authority

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: 

"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"  

People cried and answered: 

"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Then followed the key sentence denoting the clear designation of 'Ali as the leader of the Muslim ummah.  The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-Islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

*****

Quote

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat(Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

https://www.al-Islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-Muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-Shias

*****

I would not Dare to Judge or Comment on what the Ma'soom did . I will be out of the fold of Islam and worthy of the wrath of their Lord and be accursed for life like Iblis is. 

( Not an emotional statement, its based on Intellect).

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 1/29/2019 at 7:12 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

https://www.al-Islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

*****

https://www.al-Islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-Muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-Shias

*****

I would not Dare to Judge or Comment on what the Ma'soom did . I will be out of the fold of Islam and worthy of the wrath of their Lord and be accursed for life like Iblis is. 

( Not an emotional statement, its based on Intellect).

No one is judging them, rather seeking the truth of what happened. Problem is that we have been literally reading books that the conclusion have had defincies by sources and false judgments and poor research, trusting them fully. It is very hard to take the truth when it can go ageinst our beliefs that have been taught from young age. 

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Ghadir , Saqifa , Fadak, Battle of Jamal, Siffin and Tragedy of Karbala Happened. 

Based on what is in the Qur'an and what Muhammad al- Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said about Ahlul Al-Kisa ( The people of the Cloak).  In All these events whoever was against the Ahlul Al-Kisa meaning against the Truth is falsehood. 

We are clear so far. 

Now instead of getting into the trap of blame shifting- which was skillfully down in the Video and the narrative of the other side. Creative writing skills can paint a very different picture of events. Ahlul Al- Kisa were in disagreement, Divine representative who is under the guidance of Divine Command is shows as someone - I can't repeat the disrespect in my words. watch the Video and read the narrative posted.

I see, there is a big fundamental issue of lack of understanding of Faith. So, before we get into the trap of technical analysis ( data based, and very subjective and same data different arrangement can produce different results), let see if we have done the fundamental Analysis correctly, and properly understand the Fundamentals.

No we have not been reading books that have deficiencies, Nothing has been presented in the Few recent Threads that have or have the potential to materially Alter the Overall Picture. It's the creative writing skills that have trapped most in little tranches of non issues, and distractions. 

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Let me post the recent topics

 

 

 

 

Regardless of who made them , or who is writing them - Screen Names are non event at this point.  Overlooking that utilization of  creative writing skills and the material is questionable. 

Because of the above Threads- any thing changed in terms of Faith ? or the Overall - Holistic Picture of Realities changed. 

Any New Revelation that altered the fundamental reality of the Events? 

I am a Layman, but not ignorant. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:33 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

You can ask the other member of the Fan Club ( @haiderIam ) for confirmation that I do not shy away from responding but remember I always give better than I get 

I remember no such thing except what is the exact opposite. You shy from answering questions and divert in order not to  get exposed. I know more about you than you think even off the board. Yes your language and thought process are vulgar but that is only to hide your insecurity behind a keyboard. I can guarantee that you would not say any of that in a face to face meeting, especially if the distance between us is less than the reach of my hand.  Sadly I have to keep your secrets with me for it would be in very bad taste and would be a cause of lowering me in my own journey.  And we remain anonymous to be able to express ourselves freely. I would not give up my anonymity over something so trivial. 

Brother learn to learn for that is my sincerest advice to you. And stay on topic even when diverted. And stay away from Qiyas when you do not have the knowledge. 

I pray that you take this in a positive spirit and learn to reform yourself or bring in reform within yourself most importantly. 

Thank you Shiaman14

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:20 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

A hard core wahabi does not believe in the infallibility of our Imams, neither does Ibn Al-Hussain.

br @S.M.H.A. and I have taken care of most of the hardcore wahabis on ShiaChat and elsewhere.

Why are you such a fanboy?

See what I mean by trolling, why did you have to reply when the particular post was not even addressed to you. 

Recognize the habit and try and avoid it and then you will be progressing. 

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These hostile defensive behaviors are typical when traditional values are scrutinized. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) experienced the same exact thing when he saught reform in Arabia. Except he was ridiculed far worse.

Edited by 786:)

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4 hours ago, haideriam said:

I remember no such thing except what is the exact opposite. You shy from answering questions and divert in order not to  get exposed. I know more about you than you think even off the board. Yes your language and thought process are vulgar but that is only to hide your insecurity behind a keyboard. I can guarantee that you would not say any of that in a face to face meeting, especially if the distance between us is less than the reach of my hand.  Sadly I have to keep your secrets with me for it would be in very bad taste and would be a cause of lowering me in my own journey.  And we remain anonymous to be able to express ourselves freely. I would not give up my anonymity over something so trivial. 

Brother learn to learn for that is my sincerest advice to you. And stay on topic even when diverted. And stay away from Qiyas when you do not have the knowledge. 

I pray that you take this in a positive spirit and learn to reform yourself or bring in reform within yourself most importantly. 

Thank you Shiaman14

Surely you are not threatening me with physical violence. Isn't that grounds for being banned. Rest assured I won't complain.

I literally have 50+ messages where I asked the same question over and over and you wouldn't answer. Similarly on the Sermon thread, I repeatedly ask you the same question several times and you don't answer but you keep expecting me to answer you little bitty questions.

I would say anything to your face I so please to.

You have my full permission to share my secrets with anyone since you don't have any. I think it is a simple ploy to get me to back down. Not going to work. Here is a summary of the "secret" . @A true Sunni was abusive towards several members so I returned the favor 10 times worse. Anything else???

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13 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You have my full permission to share my secrets with anyone since you don't have any. I think it is a simple ploy to get me to back down. Not going to work. Here is a summary of the "secret" . @A true Sunni was abusive towards several members so I returned the favor 10 times worse. Anything else???

Congratulations, you've become just like him. I think he was the only other person as insufferable to speak with as you and your cohorts.

Anyways, this was a fun waste of time. However funny it was it got us nowhere and is a lesson learned about who is worth spending time talking to on this website.

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On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams,

At this moment it's my sincere advice, brother, that you actually read some books on the history of what happened at the treaty of Imam al-Hasan and what happened at Karbala because I'm actually amazed this is a matter of discussion. Please check out The History of al-Tabari Volume XIX: The Caliphate of Yazid b. Mu'awiyah which has conveineintly been translated into English. I sincerely feel if you read that then this would go somewhere.

Wa alai kum salaam. 

I read it a few years ago. Any particular section or all of it? 200+ pages if I remember

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

The Imam had spoken on a number of instances about the betterment of the Muslim nation, but that's besides the point since I don't disagree with that. But my contention is that he was going to do this by seizing the Khilafa. So he might have said at every instance that he was going to better the Muslim nation, as was clearly his intent, but as the Caliph.

How is it besides the point when that is my point? I understand your contention. I am asking for 1 sermon where Imam says as much. That's it - just one. Otherwise it is mere speculation which is being presented as fact.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

This is where not knowing Arabic has done you a disservice. Here's the Arabic:

" بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم هذا ما أوصى به الحسين بن علي بن أبي طالب إلى أخيه محمد المعروف يا بن الحنفية أن الحسين يشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وحده لا شريك له وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله، جاء بالحق من عند الحق، وأن الجنة والنار حق، وأن الساعة آتية لا ريب فيها، وأن الله يبعث من في القبور، وأني لم أخرج أشرا ولا بطرا ولا مفسدا ولا ظالما وإنما خرجت لطلب الاصلاح في أمة جدي صلى الله عليه وآله أريد أن آمر بالمعروف وأنهى عن المنكر، وأسير بسيرة جدي وأبي علي

Bihar al-Anwar 44:329 op cit. Maqtal al-Husayn by al-Khwarizmi.

Saying that this Arabic:

وأني لم أخرج أشرا ولا بطرا ولا مفسدا ولا ظالما

translates to this English:

"This  movement of mine is not on account of stubbornness, rebellion , worldly passions  or instigation by Satan. It is also  not my object  to create trouble or to oppress anyone."

is more than a stretch.

Here's perhaps a more literal translation:

"I have not come out wickedly, wantonly, corruptly, or oppressively."

Not a fan of Tabari mainly because of Ibn Saba. My goto source is Nafasul Mahmum and it says similar to what you wrote:

I have not risen to spread evil or to show off, nor for spreading immorality or oppression. But I have left for the betterment of the ummah of my Grand­father and I desire to propagate the Religion and forbid against evil, thus following the footsteps of my Grandfather and Father Ali bin Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).). Thus the one who accepts truth through me, will have received truth from Allah, while the one who betrays me, I shall forebear until Allah judges between myself and the oppressive creed and verily Allah is the Best Judge. This is the testimony to you from me O brother. And my favors is with Allah Alone on Whom alone I rely, and my return is towards Him.”
I have no problem giving that to you...at least until I find another reference that cites "rebellion".

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

So no, he did not say he wasn't rebelling. If he was not actually trying to take the Khilafah, then you'd be wondering what he was doing saying things like:

أما بعد فان الله اصطفى محمدا صلى الله عليه وسلم على خلقه وأكرمه بنبوته واختاره لرسالته ثم قبضه الله إليه وقد نصح لعبادة وبلغ ما أرسل به صلى الله عليه وسلم وكنا أهله وأولياءه وأوصياءه وورثته وأحق الناس بمقامه في الناس فاستأثر علينا قومنا بذلك فرضينا وكرهنا الفرقة وأحببنا العافية ونحن نعلم أنا أحق بذلك الحق المستحق علينا ممن تولاه وقد أحسنوا وأصلحوا وتحروا الحق فرحمهم الله وغفر لنا ولهم وقد بعثت رسولي إليكم بهذا الكتاب وأنا أدعوكم إلى كتاب الله وسنة نبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم فان السنة قد أميتت وإن البدعة قد أحييت وأن تسمعوا قولي وتطيعوا أمري أهدكم سبيل الرشاد والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Tarikh al-Tabari 4:266

That there was going to be a divine government established by the year 70 AH which was abrogated by Bada' and pushed forward 70 years due to the killing of Imam Husayn (and abrogated again until the Qa'im returns due to the due to disclosing this) is also mentioned in the ahadith:

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى جميعا، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: يا ثابت إن الله تبارك وتعالى قد كان وقت هذا الامر في السبعين، فلما أن قتل الحسين صلوات الله عليه اشتد غضب الله تعالى على أهل الارض، فأخره إلى أربعين و ومائة، فحدثناكم فأذعتم الحديث فكشفتم قناع الستر ولم يجعل الله له بعد ذلك وقتا عندنا ويمحو الله ما يشاء ويثبت وعنده أم الكتاب. قال أبو حمزة: فحدثت بذلك أبا عبد الله عليه السلام فقال: قد كان كذلك

al-Kafi 1:368

The fact that Caliphate was the right of our Imams is not lost anyone. But no Imam rose to claim it and neither did Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). He just said it was his right. And if he was of a rebellious nature then he would have risen after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) which he didn't and refused to do:

Both you and @Ibn al-Hussain have created a narrative that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was waiting for the opportunity to claim the Caliphate for himself. Imam Hussain's only choice was bayah or martyrdom. He chose the latter.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

No, I was someone hoping for better behaviour from the site team but evidently I was wrong.

Takes 2 to tango, doesn't it. Ibn Al-Hussain can be abusive towards SMHA and Salsabeel but the sky starts falling if I return the favor.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Notice that I said you have read as much as you claimed you did, I was accepting your confession of extreme from your first post. In any case it's funny you quote this after having written this post:

ما شاء الله شوف العقل

I think I have touched the surface of knowledge. Now if that happens to be enough to defeat Quranists, Wahabis and Reformists, that's on them, not me. Also, I understand this is a hard concept for you to grasp but knowledge and aql are different.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Yes, this is quite clear from him accepting allegiance from a city offering them his swords against the Caliph and raising an army as he traveled to it.

Tabari says that Hisham said that Abu Makhnaf related to me from Sa’qib bin Zuhayr, from Abu Usman Nahdi that Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).) wrote a similar letter to the noblemen of the five divisions of Basra and their chiefs through his retainer named Sulayman. The letters with similar contents were addressed to Malik bin Musme’ [edited out], Ahnaf bin Qays, Manzar bin Jarood, Mas’ood bin ‘Amr, Qays bin Haysam and Umar bin Abdullah bin Mu’ammar,

Now then! Verily Allah has chosen Prophet Muhammad (S) above all His creatures and granted him (the prestige of) Prophethood and chose him for the Apostleship. Then the Almighty took him towards His mercy (death) after the Prophet having guided all people towards the truth, and after having propagated the message for which he was sent. Thus we are his Household (Ahlul Bayt), friends, vicegerents and his successors and are more worthy of succeeding him than anyone else. Then the nation has tried to precede us in this matter and we helplessly withdrew to avoid dissentions. We cherish peace although we consider ourselves more worthy and deserving of it (Caliphate) than them. I have sent towards you my messenger and I invite you to the Book of Allah and the tradition (sunnah) of the Prophet, for I see that the traditions (sunnah) have been destroyed and innovations have crept up. Hence if you pay heed to my words and obey my command, then I shall guide you to the Righteous path. And peace be upon you and Allah’s blessings and mercy.
https://www.al-Islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-Karbala-shaykh-Abbas-qummi/Imam-s-letter-noblemen

The reason for Imam rising are listed above for reference. Note that Imam is fighting the destruction of the Sunnah and the bidah that plagued the Muslims. He was not rising for the caliphate. He was taking a stand against the destruction of the faith.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

You know you're literally giving the example of someone who established a government in a city counter to the one in Mecca and used it as a base from which to attack the Meccan government. Yes, his example was very much like his grandfather's in that he wanted to establish a divine government.

Widen the lens. I used the migration example doesn't mean you forget the multiple sermons and messages of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that he was on the road to martyrdom. Also, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not migrate with the intention of establishing a government in Madinah. His objective was preservation of life unless of course you have more evidence that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) planned to establish a government in Madinah.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Yes, because all the people that disagree with you are nawasib.

I thought people who disagreed with me were muqassir??? 

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Well apparently someone has to seeing as you don't seem to be doing enough of it yourself.

When people start thinking for someone, they have been taken over by that person. Can't think for yourself and trying to think for me...your infatuation is growing.

On 1/28/2019 at 11:22 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

However confrontational the ahadith portray Imam Husayn, rest assured he was less than you are, and without a doubt he was better at understanding things than you are.

The ahadith do not portray Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as confrontational. Only Ibn Al-Hussain and his Fan Club do. Could be because you rely on Sunni sources but thenI haven't even heard nasibis say that about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) other than Zakir Naik who also said Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) made a mistake.

How did we get to comparing me to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)? You are truly losing the plot. It could be that you can't bring yourself to reject the portrayal of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as confrontational but need to say something so this is what you say. :hahaha::hahaha:

Hussain (عليه السلام) is my master. Of course he is better than me in all ways. You finally spoke the truth, now keep at it.

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11 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Congratulations, you've become just like him. I think he was the only other person as insufferable to speak with as you and your cohorts.

Anyways, this was a fun waste of time. However funny it was it got us nowhere and is a lesson learned about who is worth spending time talking to on this website.

Wait a second, you thought he was insufferable? @haideriam really loves him,

My cohorts???

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15 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Anyways, this was a fun waste of time. However funny it was it got us nowhere and is a lesson learned about who is worth spending time talking to on this website.

I will be the bigger person and raise the white flag

Image result for white flag

I apologize to you.

now let's get to discussing the first 7 posts from this thread. 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I read it a few years ago. Any particular section or all of it? 200+ pages if I remember

Congratulations, you wasted your time reading 200+ pages it seems.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

How is it besides the point when that is my point? I understand your contention. I am asking for 1 sermon where Imam says as much. That's it - just one. Otherwise it is mere speculation which is being presented as fact.

All the sermons I gave you where he claimed the Khilafah as his right and not that of Bani Umayya. That and doing everything to try establish a government.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

 Not a fan of Tabari mainly because of Ibn Saba. My goto source is Nafasul Mahmum and it says similar to what you wrote:

Then throw out 80% of your knowledge of Islamic history, al-Tabari's work is one of the most fundemental works on Islamic history. Additionally, he relies largely on Shia historians to write about Karbala (mainly Abu Mikhnaf, at times supplementing him with others). Nafas al-Mahmum was written about a century and a half ago, it's a much later source than Abu Mikhnaf, and while is a good book, it would contain many more embellishments as well.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Tabari says that Hisham said that Abu Makhnaf related to me from Sa’qib bin Zuhayr, from Abu Usman Nahdi that Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).) wrote a similar letter to the noblemen of the five divisions of Basra and their chiefs through his retainer named Sulayman. The letters with similar contents were addressed to Malik bin Musme’ [edited out], Ahnaf bin Qays, Manzar bin Jarood, Mas’ood bin ‘Amr, Qays bin Haysam and Umar bin Abdullah bin Mu’ammar,

 Now then! Verily Allah has chosen Prophet Muhammad (S) above all His creatures and granted him (the prestige of) Prophethood and chose him for the Apostleship. Then the Almighty took him towards His mercy (death) after the Prophet having guided all people towards the truth, and after having propagated the message for which he was sent. Thus we are his Household (Ahlul Bayt), friends, vicegerents and his successors and are more worthy of succeeding him than anyone else. Then the nation has tried to precede us in this matter and we helplessly withdrew to avoid dissentions. We cherish peace although we consider ourselves more worthy and deserving of it (Caliphate) than them. I have sent towards you my messenger and I invite you to the Book of Allah and the tradition (sunnah) of the Prophet, for I see that the traditions (sunnah) have been destroyed and innovations have crept up. Hence if you pay heed to my words and obey my command, then I shall guide you to the Righteous path. And peace be upon you and Allah’s blessings and mercy.
https://www.al-Islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-Karbala-shaykh-Abbas-qummi/Imam-s-letter-noblemen

 The reason for Imam rising are listed above for reference. Note that Imam is fighting the destruction of the Sunnah and the bidah that plagued the Muslims. He was not rising for the caliphate. He was taking a stand against the destruction of the faith.

I'm honestly amazed at this, you've quoted to me a poor English translation of the Arabic you were arguing against, and the real kicker is that this is from Tarikh al-Tabari (which you don't like because Abdullah b. Saba). I don't think this can be topped :cryhappy:.

Here's how poor the translation is, it chose to translate Awliya' as "friends" rather than authorities (I guess Imam Ali was really made the Muslims' friend at Ghadir) when it's talking about a position of power that was lost to them. You literally have them talking about their rightful authority being taken away by false claimants. Why on Earth would he be saying this. Talking about the restoration of the Sunnah is integral because (I) he is an Imam and (ii) the upholding of it was part of the treaty and the Imam is saying this was not held up (like power was not given to his family). I honestly am having a hard time believing you actually read al-Tabari's Tarikh's section on Karbala like you said you did.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The fact that Caliphate was the right of our Imams is not lost anyone. But no Imam rose to claim it and neither did Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). He just said it was his right. And if he was of a rebellious nature then he would have risen after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) which he didn't and refused to do:

 Both you and @Ibn al-Hussain have created a narrative that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was waiting for the opportunity to claim the Caliphate for himself. Imam Hussain's only choice was bayah or martyrdom. He chose the latter.

I don't know if you're thick or what, the Imam was guaranteed in the treaty between Imam Hasan and Mu'awiya that if Imam Hasan is no longer alive then after Mu'awiya's death, authority would go to Imam Husayn. I think you're forgetting that whole episode. Apparently he was guaranteed authority in a written treaty, he claimed authority as being his right wrongfully usurped by the Umawis, he discredited their claim to authority, he raised an army, he accepted allegiance from a city which didn't give it to the rival authority, and planned on doing all the duties of his authority, without actually seizing his authority. If you can't see how ridiculous that is then I'm very sorry.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Widen the lens. I used the migration example doesn't mean you forget the multiple sermons and messages of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that he was on the road to martyrdom. Also, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did not migrate with the intention of establishing a government in Madinah. His objective was preservation of life unless of course you have more evidence that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) planned to establish a government in Madinah.

No, he took oaths of allegiance before leaving making for Madina him the de jure leader of the two major tribes of the city, established a constitution immediately entering the city establishing himself as the head arbitrator, and immediately used it as a base of operations with which to conduct his affairs including waging war against his political adversaries because he thought it was a lovely hiding spot. While he had to escape Meccan persecution he clearly had the intent of establishing a government. This is just more bad history.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

When people start thinking for someone, they have been taken over by that person. Can't think for yourself and trying to think for me...your infatuation is growing.

:love::cuddle:

I have to admit a certain degree of fascination in someone who presents the demeanor of someone so well read that he is the killer of Wahabis and destroyer of Quranists, yet has such poor understanding of Islamic history he doesn't understand what someone saying they're the rightful successor means or that someone taking all the measures to establish a government means they intend to establish a government. I've never seen thick headedness like this before.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The ahadith do not portray Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as confrontational. Only Ibn Al-Hussain and his Fan Club do. Could be because you rely on Sunni sources

Yes, I forgot how Sunni al-Tabarsi, al-Ardabili, and Abu Mikhnaf were. Again if you don't want to look at Sunni sources, clear your mind if the majority of recorded Islamic history as it stems from their works. The biggest early maqtal (by a Shia!) dealing with Karbala is preserved almost entirely in a Sunni work (al-Tabari). But clearly our historian brother has ascended the need to refer to sources when he's just making up facts.

59 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I will be the bigger person and raise the white flag

After this, brother, do yourself a favour and actually go read those books you've said you read. You are manifestly unqualified to handle these discussions to be honest.

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

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On 1/26/2019 at 3:37 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

1. Imam Husayn (a) did not agree with the truce Imam Hasan (a) made with Mu'awiyah - but for one reason or another, he continued to live under his caliphate (although we do have some references mentioning some Kufans had written to Imam Husayn during this period as well). Imam Husayn (a) as a personality was different from other Imams. His personality sees to be more confrontational than any of the other Imams.

That's quoting what Umar said to Hussain (عليه السلام) but I can't find the actual hadith.^ 

 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Imam hussain sent envoys to ahnaf b qays of basran Tamim before Karbala 

He was a shrewd politician who has loyally served Ali 

He famously advised against choosing Abu musa ashari at the arbitration 

He also played a crucial role in preventing his tribe from joining Aisha before Jamal

 

He  was a longtime ally of Ali  yet advises AGAINST  uprising , does anyone have details on this ?

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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41 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

He  was a longtime ally of Ali  yet advises AGAINST  uprising , does anyone have details on this ?

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Ahnaf_b._Qays

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48 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

what his reasons were 

from the text , I understand he was preferring good but his tribal affairs had more priority for him than Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) specially Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Wait a second, you thought he was insufferable? @haideriam really loves him,

My cohorts???

 

Because he had two things on his side honesty and non deceit, yes he hit hard and I had made mention of that in many of our to and fro on the threads. 

 

Edited by haideriam

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5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Surely you are not threatening me with physical violence. Isn't that grounds for being banned. Rest assured I won't complain.

I literally have 50+ messages where I asked the same question over and over and you wouldn't answer. Similarly on the Sermon thread, I repeatedly ask you the same question several times and you don't answer but you keep expecting me to answer you little bitty questions.

I would say anything to your face I so please to.

You have my full permission to share my secrets with anyone since you don't have any. I think it is a simple ploy to get me to back down. Not going to work. Here is a summary of the "secret" . @A true Sunni was abusive towards several members so I returned the favor 10 times worse. Anything else???

Two non physical entities in ether carrying out a physical threat. How insecure are you? Never threatened you just brought a fact to the table that you portray your insecurity by fabrications of being what you are not. You are being smashed to bits and yet you are so devoid of aql and wisdom that you keep getting up for more and expose yourself further.

I do not answer your questions because they are foolish, dishonest and misleading and diversionary.

The not sharing secrets is for my benefit in a spiritual sense but guess you have no idea of that concept.

The one upmanship and drama of flags and so on are a detriment to you learning. So if you are not here for learning then it must be to hide your insecurities.

Be productive and fruitful in the sense that your own conscience says it to you. 

Edited by haideriam

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اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا ابَا عَبْدِ ٱللَّهِ

alssal¡mu `alayka y¡ ab¡ `abdill¡hi

Peace be upon you, O Aba-`Abdullah.

اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا بْنَ رَسُولِ ٱللَّهِ

alssal¡mu `alayka yabna ras£li all¡hi

Peace be upon you, O son of Allah’s Messenger.

السَّلاَمُ عَلَيكَ يَا خِيَرَةِ ٱللَّهِ وَٱبْنَ خَيرَتِهِ

alssal¡mu `alayka y¡ khiyarata all¡hi wabna khiyaratih¢

Peace be upon you, O choicest of Allah and son of His choicest.

اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا بْنَ امِيرِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ

alssal¡mu `alayka yabna am¢ri almu'min¢na

Peace be upon you, O son of the Commander of the Faithful

وَٱبْنَ سَيِّدِ ٱلْوَصِيِّينَ

wabna sayyidi alwa¥iyy¢na

and son of the chief of the Prophets’ successors.

اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا بْنَ فَاطِمَةَ

alssal¡mu `alayka yabna f¡§imata

Peace be upon you, O son of Fatimah

.........

إِنِّي سِلْمٌ لِمَنْ سَالَمَكُمْ

inn¢ silmun liman s¡lamakum

I am at peace with those who are at peace with you

وَحَرْبٌ لِمَنْ حَارَبَكُمْ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ

wa ¦arbun liman ¦¡rabakum il¡ yawmi alqiy¡mati

and I am at war against those who have fought against you up to the Resurrection Day."

http://www.duas.org/ashura/z_ashura.htm

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