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ShiaMan14

Who is better: Only Daily Prayers While Helping Mankind, or Spending Entire Day on Prayer Mat? (Discussion 2019, Week 3)

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Praying Salaat is for himself. Helping others is for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Beautiful

Would you consider the actions of Person 1 to be ibadah?

Edited by ShiaMan14

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 "You are the best people ever raised for the good of mankind because you have been raised to serve others; you enjoin what is good and forbid evil and believe in Allah." (3:110)


The Holy Prophet (S) said:

“One who fulfils the desire of his brother, would be as if he has worshipped God for his entire life”

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (S) said:

“He is not a believer who inspite of being capable avoids helping his brother in need; Allah also leaves him on his own and does not help him in this world nor the Hereafter.”

Edited by Nevsevug

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The absolute best act of worship is service to other people. Salat is only the foundational act of worship.

I really wish more people knew this.

Jazakallah.

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3 hours ago, aaljibar said:

The absolute best act of worship is service to other people. Salat is only the foundational act of worship.

I really wish more people knew this.

Jazakallah.

Indeed. Salah is the beginning of worship. Some make it the end all, be all.

Not trivializing Salah of course.

Edited by ShiaMan14

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It is possible that person 1 is a bully. He has lowered the confidence of person 2, and person 1 gets encouragement from people, while person 2 fails whenever he tries to please people. No matter what he does, it's never good enough. That's why person 2 spends his days praying to God to save him from person 1 because person 1 is very powerful with support from people. We should ask this question: what is more important for Allah? The suffering which person 1caused person 2 or the pleasure he caused to many people? 

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One can not make an instantaneous decision on which of these two would be better. Why? Well, because you have to take into consideration many things, for example: Is person 1 a muhaarib (strives against the religion of Islam or Muslims whether it be ideologically or militarily), or, Is person 2 sick, or does he have other disabilities (like poverty for ex.) which don't allow him to help mankind or do similar acts etc? Is person 1 ignorant? Meaning that he is (jaahil) in the teaching of Islam, or the Ahlul Bayt, the true religion. To name a few.

If person 1 was a muhaarib all of their work would be nullified (Qur'an states in regards to the people who do not believe in the signs of Allah, as well as those who fight the believers: "And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed.and another ayah: Those who disbelieve in the signs of Allah and kill the Prophets without right and kill those who order justice from among the people - give them tidings of a painful punishmentThey are the ones whose deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and for them there will be no helpers.

If person 2 was not able to (for whatever acceptable reason) do any of the first person's work, but still would've wanted to help others (due to his niyah, intention) he would be in the day of Judgement be regarded as a philanthropist or at least seek the same rewards. (The Holy Prophet may peace and blessing be upon him and his progeny said: "Verily, actions are determined by intentions". 

Now, if person 1 was a jaahil (a person who never knew of the Haqq and did not strive to fight Islam or Muslims) Allah, out of His mercy will give them a second chance on the Day of Judgement and test them with a particular test, if they succeed in it, they will be granted Paradise, otherwise they will be of the losers.

 

 

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1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

It is possible that person 1 is a bully. He has lowered the confidence of person 2, and person 1 gets encouragement from people, while person 2 fails whenever he tries to please people. No matter what he does, it's never good enough. That's why person 2 spends his days praying to God to save him from person 1 because person 1 is very powerful with support from people. We should ask this question: what is more important for Allah? The suffering which person 1caused person 2 or the pleasure he caused to many people? 

Person 1 and Person 2 do not know each other. They live in different countries.

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41 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

Every household has at least 1 member who is like person 1 and another member who is like person 2. 

I see what you mean here but people don't always choose to be someone's favourite. I am my father's favourite and always have been. My father is not only very vocal about this but he also demonstrates it rather flamboyantly with his actions too. I didn't choose this - in fact I have spoken to him many a times and explained that he is alienating my sister from me with his actions. However, after a few days he is back to his usual self by addressing me as: 'My Queen', 'My Princess', 'My Angel', 'Jannat', 'Beauty Queen', 'Gift from Allah', etc. etc. Of course this irks my sister but I did not choose this.

As I am an extrovert and a people's person, I am also the favourite of all the 'Aunty jis' and 'Uncle jis' in my community since I was a young child. I didn't choose my personality and neither did I choose to be the 'apple of my father's eye', as my  sister puts it. During her wedding I always wanted her to bask in the limelight and avoided centre stage at all times by attempting to watch from afar. However, invariably, as the sister of the bride, I would get called to the forefront. If looks could kill! My sister never spoke to me throughout her wedding and refused to even let me walk her to her car. I have attempted to sit down and discuss this with her on numerous occasions but to no avail. 

Please understand that being popular or 'the favourite' is a double edged sword.  It cuts me up that despite all my efforts my sister does not want to maintain even a cordial relationship with me. Also, to try to balance the equation my mother always favours my younger sister over me in her presence, but then in confidence tells me 'it's just to make her happy'. I don't think this is fair either but I just have to suck it up.

Dear sister, things aren't always as black and white as they appear. I am sure in my sisters world view I am Person 1. But, please understand that Person 1 (as per your definition) doesn't always choose to be in this position even though it may appear to be a rather enviable one to Person 2.

 

Edited by Aflower

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30 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Dear sister, things aren't always as black and white as they appear. I am sure in my sisters world view I am Person 1. But, please understand that Person 1 (as per your definition) doesn't always choose to be in this position even though it may appear to be a rather enviable one to Person 2.

But this has nothing to do with the given scenario. 'Favourites ' often love the limelight and find it hard to empathise with those who are treated as secondary or as option 2 .

In fact, given the example, I'd presume Person 2 is the 'favourite', and Person 1 as the shadow. Person 2 may very well be the kind of person to have a special air of narcissism and selfishness among them. People easily gush over someone who looks so God loving and kind, and forget that actions speak louder than words. Person 1 is probably the kind of person to thrive off helping people, and not make such a big deal about it and act like God's gift. The actions of Person 1 are probably less noticeable than those of Person 2, who makes it a point to be on the prayer mat all day and just pray for himself and leave everyone else to fend for themselves, as @Sirius_Bright put it. So, I think Person 2 would actually be the classic favourite who apparently has noor emanating from his face, while 1 is the withdrawn quite one who prefers not to be the centre of attention. 

What do you think @rkazmi33

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I am a snowflake and I am upset because I feel like I am getting attacked by a mob. I won't respond until there are more people supporting me. 

@Aflower you sound exactly like my evil sister and I also don't talk to her. I feel sorry for your sister and I am too upset to respond to you. You can remain in your heaven until one day, your sister and you switch positions, then you will understand. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

But this has nothing to do with the given scenario. 'Favourites ' often love the limelight and find it hard to empathise with those who are treated as secondary or as option 2 .

In fact, given the example, I'd presume Person 2 is the 'favourite', and Person 1 as the shadow. Person 2 may very well be the kind of person to have a special air of narcissism and selfishness among them. People easily gush over someone who looks so God loving and kind, and forget that actions speak louder than words. Person 1 is probably the kind of person to thrive off helping people, and not make such a big deal about it and act like God's gift. The actions of Person 1 are probably less noticeable than those of Person 2, who makes it a point to be on the prayer mat all day and just pray for himself and leave everyone else to fend for themselves, as @Sirius_Bright put it. So, I think Person 2 would actually be the classic favourite who apparently has noor emanating from his face, while 1 is the withdrawn quite one who prefers not to be the centre of attention. 

What do you think @rkazmi33

Yours is a 'hypothetical situation'. One could speculate on 'what if' scenarios all day long without a conclusive answer. Irrespective of who is Person 1 or Person 2 in my narrated situation; I have narrated a real life situation from my perspective. It goes without saying that my sister may have a completely different take on the matter. As they say there are always 3 sides to every story - mine, yours and the truth. I am wise enough to know that I will probably have many 'blind spots' too. However, no-one (will necessarily) be lying between my sister and I. Memories shared serves each one differently.  

@2Timeless I have noted in the past that you do tend to be at loggerheads with me. I have said what I need to. With respect I won't be responding to you again on this matter as I have no wish to engage in 'message tennis' you. Read in to that what you will. By all means feel free to speculate as much as your heart desires. 

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2 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

I am a snowflake and I am upset because I feel like I am getting attacked by a mob. I won't respond until there are more people supporting me. 

I support you @rkazmi33. There always two/three sides to every story. Clearly your narrative reflects your experience. 

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@Aflower 

@2Timeless

@rkazmi33

So this was the situation. Both people were nice people. They were both at Ziarat together. Person 1 spent the bulk of her time helping other zawar. Person 2 spent most of her time at the harem.

We heard different people praise either of them but never heard anyone praise both.

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3 hours ago, Aflower said:

I see what you mean here but people don't always choose to be someone's favourite. I am my father's favourite and always have been. My father is not only very vocal about this but he also demonstrates it rather flamboyantly with his actions too. I didn't choose this - in fact I have spoken to him many a times and explained that he is alienating my sister from me with his actions. However, after a few days he is back to his usual self by addressing me as: 'My Queen', 'My Princess', 'My Angel', 'Jannat', 'Beauty Queen', 'Gift from Allah', etc. etc. Of course this irks my sister but I did not choose this.

As I am an extrovert and a people's person, I am also the favourite of all the 'Aunty jis' and 'Uncle jis' in my community since I was a young child. I didn't choose my personality and neither did I choose to be the 'apple of my father's eye', as my  sister puts it. During her wedding I always wanted her to bask in the limelight and avoided centre stage at all times by attempting to watch from afar. However, invariably, as the sister of the bride, I would get called to the forefront. If looks could kill! My sister never spoke to me throughout her wedding and refused to even let me walk her to her car. I have attempted to sit down and discuss this with her on numerous occasions but to no avail. 

Please understand that being popular or 'the favourite' is a double edged sword.  It cuts me up that despite all my efforts my sister does not want to maintain even a cordial relationship with me. Also, to try to balance the equation my mother always favours my younger sister over me in her presence, but then in confidence tells me 'it's just to make her happy'. I don't think this is fair either but I just have to suck it up.

Dear sister, things aren't always as black and white as they appear. I am sure in my sisters world view I am Person 1. But, please understand that Person 1 (as per your definition) doesn't always choose to be in this position even though it may appear to be a rather enviable one to Person 2.

 

I’m sure all parents here would agree, how hard is it to balance things out. It’s a daily struggle for us as parents to look objective and judicious all at the same time. 

There is a Hadith that most of us have read which instructs to kiss one then kiss the other too (and we can extrapolate from here) so sometimes we as parents need to do things for kids which we may not want at the moment to play equalizer. Some parents don’t, but it’s worth the effort. 

On the other hand, I’m glad you are considerate of your sister’s feelings. Write her a letter and explain it to her. 

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

@Aflower 

@2Timeless

@rkazmi33

So this was the situation. Both people were nice people. They were both at Ziarat together. Person 1 spent the bulk of her time helping other zawar. Person 2 spent most of her time at the harem.

We heard different people praise either of them but never heard anyone praise both.

Why are people comparing those women anyway? I am the second type of person, I spend most of time at harem and there are reasons. I am shy, introvert, dealing with 40 strangers who are constantly staring and judging your every move is exhausting. I spend most time at harem to hide from my group. I think that most zawars don't need help, unless they have small kids, they just need socializing. I just feel that ziarat trip should be different than vacation. My family thinks I spend a lot of money on ziarat trips, and I honestly only go to pray for solution of my problems, so I want to feel spiritual. I don't feel spiritual when spending time with other people. There's a lot of drama, politics and toxicity which makes me feel less spiritual. The group in which I go, there are a lot of older women and few women under 30. So it's really like having many mothers-in-law. I sometimes want to remind them: I am not your daughter-in-law. You have one in US and I have plenty of women in my life who act like my mother-in-law. 

I will admit that in such difficult circumstances, a woman who manages to help other people is probably more pious and I am more than happy to give her that award as long as she is not mean to me and doesn't try to "fix" me. 

I guess the question is whether spending a lot of time reading duas in harem is the best use of time? I see many Iranian and Iraqi women spending hours on reading duas, and yes I think it's better use of time than doing shopping, trying local foods,  or exchanging gifts with people of your group. This is another objection I have, there are so many poor people in those countries who can use our help, but there is so much exchange of gifts and food within the group, do they really need all those gifts? 

I will admit that I am lazy and I get tired because on ziarat trips, we walk a lot, so I just want to sit and get some rest while reading duas. Everyone has flaws, everyone struggles with a particular sin. In our culture, laziness is unacceptable for women. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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11 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

Why are people comparing those women anyway?

People weren't comparing them. They were talking about one or the other.

19 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

I am the second type of person, I spend most of time at harem and there are reasons. I am shy, introvert, dealing with 40 strangers who are constantly staring and judging your every move is exhausting. I spend most time at harem to hide from my group. I think that most zawars don't need help, unless they have small kids, they just need socializing. I just feel that ziarat trip should be different than vacation. My family thinks I spend a lot of money on ziarat trips, and I honestly only go to pray for solution of my problems, so I want to feel spiritual. I don't feel spiritual when spending time with other people. There's a lot of drama, politics and toxicity which makes me feel less spiritual. The group in which I go, there are a lot of older women and few women under 30. So it's really like having many mothers-in-law. I sometimes want to remind them: I am not your daughter-in-law. You have one in US and I have plenty of women in my life who act like my mother-in-law. 

I will admit that in such difficult circumstances, a woman who manages to help other people is probably more pious and I am more than happy to give her that award as long as she is not mean to me and doesn't try to "fix" me. 

I guess the question is whether spendin a lot of time reading duas in harrm is the best use of time? I see many Iranian and Iraqi women spending hours on reading duas, and yes I think it's better use of time than doing shopping or exchanging gifts with people of your group. This is another objection I have, there are so many poor people in those countries who can use our help, but there is so much exchange of gifts and food within the group, do they really need all those gifts? 

Person 1 was in a similar group as you described. Her time was spent the elder ladies in the group including her mother.

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Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum 

I'm reminded of this hadith narrated by Imam Hassan as

Lady Fatima's love for others in her prayers

Imam Hasan narrates, “I saw my mother in the prayer site (mihrab) on Friday night when she continuously performed genuflection and prostration until the sun rose. I heard her praying for the believing men and women; she would mention their names and sincerely prayed for them, but asked nothing for herself. I said to her, ‘My dear mother! Why don't you pray for yourself as you pray for others? She replied, ‘My son, we must first pray for our neighbours (I.e. others) and then for ourselves.’”

  • 36. Shaykh Saduq, 1408 (A.H.), vol. 1, p. 215, section 145, hadith no. 1/ Arbali, 1401 (A.H.), vol. 2, p. 94/ Tabari, 1413 (A.H.), p. 152/ Majlisi, 1421 (A.H.), vol. 18, p. 63

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There’s a lot of projection going around here and a lot of passive aggression

please answer the question objectively without projecting. This question is not targeting anybody and therefore should not be viewed that way, but instead views through Islams eyes

if you think the question should have more parameters then like say that lol 

I kinda agree it’s a bit too broad 

but certainly 1 and 2 are good in terms of worship 

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21 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

Why are people comparing those women anyway? I am the second type of person, I spend most of time at harem and there are reasons. I am shy, introvert, dealing with 40 strangers who are constantly staring and judging your every move is exhausting. I spend most time at harem to hide from my group. I think that most zawars don't need help, unless they have small kids, they just need socializing. I just feel that ziarat trip should be different than vacation. My family thinks I spend a lot of money on ziarat trips, and I honestly only go to pray for solution of my problems, so I want to feel spiritual. I don't feel spiritual when spending time with other people. There's a lot of drama, politics and toxicity which makes me feel less spiritual. The group in which I go, there are a lot of older women and few women under 30. So it's really like having many mothers-in-law. I sometimes want to remind them: I am not your daughter-in-law. You have one in US and I have plenty of women in my life who act like my mother-in-law. 

I will admit that in such difficult circumstances, a woman who manages to help other people is probably more pious and I am more than happy to give her that award as long as she is not mean to me and doesn't try to "fix" me. 

I guess the question is whether spending a lot of time reading duas in harem is the best use of time? I see many Iranian and Iraqi women spending hours on reading duas, and yes I think it's better use of time than doing shopping, trying local foods,  or exchanging gifts with people of your group. This is another objection I have, there are so many poor people in those countries who can use our help, but there is so much exchange of gifts and food within the group, do they really need all those gifts? 

I will admit that I am lazy and I get tired because on ziarat trips, we walk a lot, so I just want to sit and get some rest while reading duas. Everyone has flaws, everyone struggles with a particular sin. In our culture, laziness is unacceptable for women. 

This is by far your best post I’ve read sister. Yes we are there to help, be caring, be compassionate but gotta have the goal in mind.  We are there thousand of miles away to be in the vicinity of our Imams, ought to prioritise it. Without not being compassionate. 

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:45 PM, rkazmi33 said:

It is possible that person 1 is a bully. He has lowered the confidence of person 2, and person 1 gets encouragement from people, while person 2 fails whenever he tries to please people. No matter what he does, it's never good enough. That's why person 2 spends his days praying to God to save him from person 1 because person 1 is very powerful with support from people. We should ask this question: what is more important for Allah? The suffering which person 1caused person 2 or the pleasure he caused to many people? 

Person 1 being bully would go against them helping mankind. If you're a bully and hurt others then doing acts of charity doesn't have that much significance, in my opinion. I interpreted Person 1 as someone who tries to help people and also tried to be kind to everyone.

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You people are getting really off topic.

The question assumes both individuals - doesn't specify man or woman - are good people, well intentioned, and have normal capabilities. As a side note, it's reasonable to discuss extreme circumstances, but it misses the point and certainly is not the main point!

 

Assuming all else is the same, which is better: that a person spends all waking hours in prayer, or a person prays only the obligatory prayers and spends the rest of waking hours in service to others? 

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:09 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Person 1 spends his day helping mankind and just performs daily prayers.

Person 2 spends entire day on the mussallah (prayer mat).

Who is more praise worthy and thawab-worthy?

To me the question is a bit Either-Or and a bit out of place, similar to when some elders jokingly ask toddlers, ‘who you love the most, mum or dad?’.

Helping mankind and being in prayers all day, both have their merits and time & place. Of course Islam doesn’t allow locking yourself in the room but also tells so much about being in sujood for long times.

Nobody can match the Holy Prophet (sawaw) or his Ahlul Bayt but they did and showed both to us, depending on the time and circumstances.

For us, humans of a lesser mission, sticking to both is equally important as far as our capability is - with moderation and with balance - but leaving one for the other would be absurd. Islam tells us to first improve Self, then household, then family, then neighbourhood, then society, which in turn helps improve Self. 

 

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1 hour ago, AMR5 said:

To me the question is a bit Either-Or and a bit out of place, similar to when some elders jokingly ask toddlers, ‘who you love the most, mum or dad?’.

Helping mankind and being in prayers all day, both have their merits and time & place. Of course Islam doesn’t allow locking yourself in the room but also tells so much about being in sujood for long times.

Nobody can match the Holy Prophet (sawaw) or his Ahlul Bayt but they did and showed both to us, depending on the time and circumstances.

For us, humans of a lesser mission, sticking to both is equally important as far as our capability is - with moderation and with balance - but leaving one for the other would be absurd. Islam tells us to first improve Self, then household, then family, then neighbourhood, then society, which in turn helps improve Self. 

 

Great answer. :clap:

I really like the bold above.

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