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Here's a very interesting debate. If anyone wants to, you could watch the full ad on YouTube, but I'm not linking it here because it has some inappropriate images. 

I really dislike the ad because of how sexist it is. It just shows men at the worst and generalised that all men are the same, portraying them as predators and violent people. I think this ad is just an utter joke. Thoughts? Any men on here offended by it?

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I'm sorry but I wont watch the clip you posted. I don’t keep up with popular culture anymore for this exact reason. From what I remember when I used to watch western tv channels like European and bollywood, its all very, prejedice, matcho, sexist and cheesy not to mention haram. The only western channel I watch nowadays is the Horror Channel on Sky 317. I would rather see dead zombies instead of so called beutiful people lol 

Edited by Murtaza1

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Honestly what sort of advert is that? What sort of way is that to promote peace and equality?

Radical feminists are pushing for an agenda and wish to completely destroy masculinity. There are many positive things about masculinity which we should embrace, but they're teaching everyone that all men are violent, abusive etc.

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I'm not a man, but...

I looked up the Gillette ad because I hadn't seen it and people are talking about it. Maybe I'm not seeing the same thing, but I don't understand what's the problem. It is undeniable that some men see women as objects and violence as masculine. The ad doesn't say all men do, just that men need to intervene when they see other men accepting this kind of behavior. It's the only way things will change.

Or did I see a different ad?

Nothing to do with razors or shaving, just a product using their name to sell a message - or perhaps using a message to sell their name. But nothing wrong with it either, at least not in what I watched. 

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51 minutes ago, notme said:

I'm not a man, but...

I looked up the Gillette ad because I hadn't seen it and people are talking about it. Maybe I'm not seeing the same thing, but I don't understand what's the problem. It is undeniable that some men see women as objects and violence as masculine. The ad doesn't say all men do, just that men need to intervene when they see other men accepting this kind of behavior. It's the only way things will change.

Or did I see a different ad?

Nothing to do with razors or shaving, just a product using their name to sell a message - or perhaps using a message to sell their name. But nothing wrong with it either, at least not in what I watched. 

You did watch the right ad. The clip I attached provides a very sound argument as to why this advert is utterly sexist and just completely hypocritical of radical feminists. Now, I finally understand why most people dislike feminists so much. So-called 'feminists' like this ruin the image of true feminism. 

A very important point raised in the clip I linked was, what would've happened if this advert targeted women instead of men? What if it presented women as people who make false rape allegations, murder, and are paedophiles? There would literally be protests. The issue with this advert is that it suggests that men are currently as disorderly and abusive as shown in the beginning of the ad, and they need to change. I know many men who are already like the men shown at the end of the ad . I'm sure alot of people would agree that their fathers were kind and loving and respectful to their mothers and children and everyone they interacted with. And they're still masculine. This advert suggests that men need to let go of their masculinity, and that any masculinity is toxic, and they need to adopt traits that they already have. Maybe that wasn't the intention of the advert, but it's certainly what it portrays. 

No one is denying that there are disgusting abusive men out there who commit all sorts of crime (just as there is with women). But many men are not rapists, predators and abusers, and many protect and respect their female peers.

All we need to do is look at the Prophets and the Imams. They alone will prove that this ad is nonsense.

Edited by 2Timeless

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5 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

This advert suggests that men need to let go of their masculinity, and that any masculinity is toxic, and they need to adopt traits that they already have. Maybe that wasn't the intention of the advert, but it's certainly what it portrays. 

I read an article which said "radical feninsim isn't an answer to toxic masculinity".

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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3 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I read an article which said "radical feninsim isn't an answer to toxic masculinity".

I completely agree. I think the only real masculinity can show toxic masculinity how emasculaying it is to be toxically masculine. Lol so much "masculinity". Does it make sense?

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Hope I saw the right video.  I don’t see the toxicity in this.  
 
Basically, it is saying be the best you can be and encourage others to be the best they can be; it is called positive peer pressure. And when you see a problem, address it - that is, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  
 
Some everyday “issues" are male oriented and are best addressed by those who best understand them, ie, by other men. Issues such as being sexually inappropriate to women; getting overly aggressive (especially when a group of guys get together and egg each other on - aka negative peer pressure); young men and boys in need of a strong male role model who can show how to successfully avoid and solve problems rather than promoting further conflict with the use of trigger aggression, etc.  True male honour comes from the ability to control anger (not let it control you), to be able to cope with delayed (not immediate) gratification, to have the strength to address wrongs and to make an unwavering commitment to support their young.
 
I don't see the ad as showing men as weak, but as saying men can be strong to address these issues - and it is OK to do so.  I also don't see it as showing men in a bad light.  These behaviours happen and men are often confused as to whether they should walk away and shake their head or whether they should get involved.  
 
It is blatantly obvious that we have a significant problem with young men who are raised with way too little guidance, especially in poorer communities where fathers can be scarce - but it happens everywhere - too many young men fumble their way through their youth with a definite lack of direction and support. They often seem lost and as a result make some bad choices that impact them for the rest of their lives.
 
There are many, many ad campaigns, and government initiatives, etc, to support young women to be the best they can be, and they have been successful.. Young men have not been included in this developmental focus.  I just see this as an ad to support young men.  Everything can be micro analyzed and critiqued but I think the intent is clear and well meaning.  At the very least, it has sparked debate.  Targeted support for young men is long overdue.
Edited by Maryaam

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50 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

This advert suggests that men need to let go of their masculinity, and that any masculinity is toxic, and they need to adopt traits that they already have. Maybe that wasn't the intention of the advert, but it's certainly what it portrays. 

I didn't get that impression from the ad. I got more of a "see something, say something" vibe, kind of a "let's stop ignoring and start correcting" message. 

*shrugs*

Maybe you have to be feminist to see it as anti-masculine. Or maybe you have to listen to the commentators, not the ad itself. 

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44 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

I completely agree. I think the only real masculinity can show toxic masculinity how emasculaying it is to be toxically masculine. Lol so much "masculinity". Does it make sense?

But that's what the ad is saying! Are you agreeing with it or disagreeing? 

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I agree with sisters notme and Maryaam. I don’t see the toxicity in this. I think campaigns like this (though they are just another way to make more money) are a good way to change the mindset that goes along with toxic masculinity. They are a way to get through to the masses. Keep in mind that this the conversation is about toxic masculinity, not masculinity itself. 

Edited by Nevsevug

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53 minutes ago, notme said:

let's stop ignoring and start correcting" message. 

Okay, and would your husband/brother/father not stop a fight, or stop a man from raping a woman? All the men I know have gheera and would definitely do something to stop it. The issue with this ad is that it assumes that all men don't already do that. I would've completely supported an ad that encouraged men to embrace their emotions and the way they express them, by showing how damaging phrases like "be a man" are, and that it's okay for a man to cry etc. 

54 minutes ago, notme said:

Maybe you have to be feminist to see it as anti-masculine

It's got nothing to do with that. I don't think you see how damaging this is. It's engraining into young boys minds that all men are bad and need to be controlled. Like I said earlier, many men already "start correcting " and don't ignore all the negatives within men. Also, last I checked, the video had 20k likes and 197k dislikes. So, it's not just a feminist issue. 

 

55 minutes ago, notme said:

But that's what the ad is saying! Are you agreeing with it or disagreeing? 

Lol I'm disagreeing with the ad. They could've done a much better job at it, if the beginning of it didn't make all men seem like animals.

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7 minutes ago, Nevsevug said:

Keep in mind that this the conversation is about toxic masculinity, not masculinity itself

And this ad suggests all masculinity is toxic. It does not represent the men who are already masculine, but are not abusive or hurtful and ate respectful etc.

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1 hour ago, Maryaam said:

Targeted support for young men is long overdue.

I agree, but the men I've discussed this with, and those who have reacted to it online don't see it as support. The ad is offensive as it suggests that all men do all the negative behaviours you mentioned.

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@2Timeless I didn't get the message from the ad as you did. I didn't perceive it as saying all men are brutal animals. I got the impression the ad was showing "decent" men ignoring brutal behavior in other men instead of calling it out, followed by celebrating the men who are bold enough and protective enough to call it out. 

I honestly see nothing controversial about it, except to those rare and terrifying individuals who sincerely believe that being violent animals is the epitome of masculinity. I completely don't understand how you've arrived at your interpretation. 

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

I agree, but the men I've discussed this with, and those who have reacted to it online don't see it as support. The ad is offensive as it suggests that all men do all the negative behaviours you mentioned.

It is mentioning behaviours that do happen, and we see them everyday - I didn't get the impression that it says all men do this.  I got the impression that it says that all men have the ability and strength to redirect.  It is encouragement.  It is a positive message.  It says men can be strong and absolute.

Unless we totally live in LaLa Land (a place I all too often frequent myself!!), we can see these aggressions all around us.  Schools have targeted anti-bully campaigns where children are taught not to turn away or remain silent by even micro aggressions. That does not mean that all people bully.  It means if we do not address it, we are inadvertently part of the bullying, and it continues.   We all need to stand up to injustice and male-specific injustices are no exception.  

I think that there has been given a very strong message of support to women - they are being told not to underestimate themselves, reach for their goals and to above all support your community of sisters in this quest. There are a zillion blogs written by women for women (aka support, support, support, support...) promoting how to be a good mom, how to be the healthiest you, and how to maximize your education and workplace potential, etc.  The message is not that women are derelict mothers, unhealthy blobs of protoplasm, profoundly illiterate or incapable of holding a job.   Support is seen as a strength - not a weakness.

I think men are thought, by women especially - but men too, to have been so "advantaged" that they could swim through life with little to no support.  And even now to suggest that men could benefit from brotherly support is seen as being weak and offensive by some. A lot of what was seen in the ad was guidance to prevent a potential harm by someone who has not thought through their next action.  Not all men are sure enough in themselves that they would immediately redirect or stop a wrong. There is nothing wrong with the message, but if it is seen as offensive, maybe there is a more male-centric way to approach it? Or maybe being offended by something like this is part of the problem? Maybe a male could shed some light on this.

Edited by Maryaam

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Here's a link to the ad itself. 

All users note that there might be inappropriate imagery and open at your own risk.

Check out @Gillette’s Tweet:

Maybe some guys can discuss what is offensive or even just annoying about this ad, why it is considered controversial. 

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

And this ad suggests all masculinity is toxic. It does not represent the men who are already masculine, but are not abusive or hurtful and ate respectful etc.

I don’t understand how the ad shows this. It shows instances of bullying, sexual harassment, and disrespect of women. What about this is positively masculine? The latter half of the ad tells men to hold other men accountable and how to be masculine in a positive manner. Please point to where the ad was saying all masculinity is bad? 

It doesn’t make sense to ask for men who are good to be shown when the conversation is about toxic masculinity. Also it did show instances in the latter half where good men were shown. It is possible to address a problem in society without having to say well all people aren’t like this. When we talk about the evils of society do we always claim that not all men are like this, not all Shias are like that, and so on? When we talk about problems women face concerning men, do we always have to say, well not all men? When we talk about racism do we always need to proclaim that not all whites people (or whatever race) are racist?

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@notme @Nevsevug @Maryaam I don't  think you understand my viewpoint, and the viewpoint of many others. No one is saying the ad says men are weak. The ad does not portray the men who do help stop fights, and who do not abuse and objectify women. Saying getting offended is part of the problem is a problem in itself and it does not answer the question. I believe that many men as it is, are very respectful towards women, and do not participate in fights, and do not end up being predators. Why are those the only kinds of men being represented in the ad? Why does the add say, "this is how men are right now, and this is how they get better?" Why doesn't it instead say that "some men are this horrible, so they should learn from the existing men how to be proper gentlemen?" Im not saying toxic masculinity doesn't exist. It does. And there are many disgusting abusive, pedophilic and horrible men, just as there are women like that. But the vast majority of men don't fit that description . 

Answer this question please: how would you feel towards an ad that only shows pedophilic, abusive, criminal women? And later envisions women in a better state? 

If such an ad ever came into existence, I'm 100% sure there would be outrage and women would take to the streets in protest. Why is there such a double standard. 

I'm going to repeat myself for the last time: I never said it wasn't okay for men to be kind, loving, gentle and emotional. On the contrary, I'm an advocate for that. There were a hundred and one other ways Gilette could've done so, but they chose a way that alienated men and made them feel insulted. Men already are kind, gentle and loving. Yes, men need encouragement to embrace their emotions, but that is not what the ad does. 

I also recommend watching the clip I linked, it may make the the argument clearer.

@ali_fatheroforphans could you please explain why you felt insulted by this advert?

Edited by 2Timeless

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

@notme @Nevsevug @Maryaam I don't  think you understand my viewpoint, and the viewpoint of many others. No one is saying the ad says men are weak. The ad does not portray the men who do help stop fights, and who do not abuse and objectify women. Saying getting offended is part of the problem is a problem in itself and it does not answer the question. I believe that many men as it is, are very respectful towards women, and do not participate in fights, and do not end up being predators. Why are those the only kinds of men being represented in the ad? Why does the add say, "this is how men are right now, and this is how they get better?" Why doesn't it instead say that "some men are this horrible, so they should learn from the existing men how to be proper gentlemen?" Im not saying toxic masculinity doesn't exist. It does. And there are many disgusting abusive, pedophilic and horrible men, just as there are women like that. But the vast majority of men don't fit that description . 

Answer this question please: how would you feel towards an ad that only shows pedophilic, abusive, criminal women? And later envisions women in a better state? 

If such an ad ever came into existence, I'm 100% sure there would be outrage and women would take to the streets in protest. Why is there such a double standard. 

I'm going to repeat myself for the last time: I never said it wasn't okay for men to be kind, loving, gentle and emotional. On the contrary, I'm an advocate for that. There were a hundred and one other ways Gilette could've done so, but they chose a way that alienated men and made them feel insulted. Men already are kind, gentle and loving. Yes, men need encouragement to embrace their emotions, but that is not what the ad does. 

I also recommend watching the clip I linked, it may make the the argument clearer.

@ali_fatheroforphans could you please explain why you felt insulted by this advert?

Think I understand your viewpoint on the ad - just did not agree with it….  I know I have my moments of unclarity but don't think this is one of them.  I strive to be balanced and logical for the most part.  
 
Inability to deal with being offended IS part of the problem.  Sometimes offending is gratuitous and malicious, but sometimes it is just something that you don’t want to hear, even if you need to hear it. Sometimes, you need to be offended to foster change for the better. I am sure we are all offended in many ways and we need to be able to deal with it.  
 
The ad did not say all men are basically evil (also didn't see the level of criminality in the ad, that you mention in your post) They are saying that other men can support other men in making better decisions.  Humans sometimes make poor decisions. And, the ad does not state it, but it subtley  gives the impression that it partly is mens' responsibility to support other men.  That is what it shows.  It shows men supporting men.  That is, I don't think any of the men in the add are portrayed as evil, but some are portrayed as exercising poor decisions and others are portrayed as redirecting them in a supportive way.
 
There is a double standard but not the one that you suggest.  The double standard is that it is acceptable and appropriate for women to receive direction and help but not acceptable and appropriate for men to receive guidance and redirection. For instance, a lot of men don't like receiving help.   Many men would rather get lost driving and then figure their way out of their predicament than to initially consult a map.   Support is weakness?
 
Don't think I wrote about men being kind, gentle and emotional - although that is always nice.  I was pretty clear that men could be logical, control their anger, enhance impulse control and support other men in being able to do that too.  

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I watched the ad, don't really feel either way about the ad, it is just whatever. It does not insult me anymore than other corporations involved in moral messaging.  I don't think most women growing up in the current generation truly realize just how blatantly sexist most environments were for women in the past.  We are literally talking a couple of decades ago. Rampant sexism and very one sided.  Of course not all men were and are like this, but it was pretty damn prevalent and men who actually stood up for women were ridiculed.  Obviously in some respects the scales have turned the other way and men's issues need their due attention, but that is another discussion and not every single ad will comprehensively address all issues/concerns.  

Edited by King

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@2Timeless you've tagged me, but nothing you're said (in response?) addresses anything that I've said. 

1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

Answer this question please: how would you feel towards an ad that only shows pedophilic, abusive, criminal women? And later envisions women in a better state? 

But that's not the stereotype. How about an ad that shows women as having no value other than their sex appeal? How about an ad that shows women as weak and dependent? Yes, those annoy me and they don't show a better state, they show these as perfectly acceptable, but that's not the discussion. This discussion is about the Gillette razors ad for men. 

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The ad implies that males are okay with bad behaviour. Did you notice the "boys will be boys" comment as the two kids were fighting? As if males, especially old fathers, will allow their sons to engage in, rather encourage, violent and/or risky behaviour under the umbrella of "boys will be boys". Tell me is that realistic? When is it that two little kids have a fight and an adult, especially a father, doesn't step in?

What Gillette should have done is create an ad which promotes masculinity and the role of the father. 

A BIG chunk (perhaps majority) of criminals, abusers, and people that have made the wrong financial choices, among men, are people who have lived in a single parent household. When there is no father figure for your boys, very often they turn out to be a negative presence on society.

Edited by Sumerian

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