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2 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

@ali_fatheroforphans could you please explain why you felt insulted by this advert?

Inshallah I'll give a detailed response when I have time to explain my point of view.

Yeah this advert is disgusting and I'm offended, and will always be.

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21 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

I am sure we are all offended in many ways and we need to be able to deal with it.

And dealing with it is discussing more productive ways to achieve the same message. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I share my opinion with thousands of other people who all believe this advert has very negative implications. 

 

21 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

The ad did not say all men are basically evil (also didn't see the level of criminality in the ad, that you mention in your post)

The ad implies that all the men there were abusers of some sort. Where does it show that the men living in the present who are good people? I agree that men have the duty to help other men out, and prevent them from making poor decisions. 

 

21 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

The double standard is that it is acceptable and appropriate for women to receive direction and help but not acceptable and appropriate for men to receive guidance and redirection.

I did not once suggest or imply that men do not deserve help or guidance. I don't think there is a double standard here, you've misunderstood. There are plenty of campaigns being run to promote different expressions of masculinity, and campaigns being run to help men accept the fact that they are indeed human, and it does not make them less of a man to cry or express sadness and grief. I agree that the double standard you've mentioned exists, but it isn't applicable to this situation. If you'd watched the clip, and seen the reason for the outrage others have expressed, you'd realise this has nothing to do with men and weakness and accepting help. On the contrary, the outrage is because men are being alienated and presented in an extremely negative light.

 

23 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

I was pretty clear that men could be logical, control their anger, enhance impulse control and support other men in being able to do that too.  

That's what many men already do. They don't need Gilette to tell them to be decent human beings.

23 minutes ago, notme said:

But that's not the stereotype.

But that in itself is so unbelievable. Why are women only being presented as sex objects and not as anything else. The only stereotypes against women are ones that conform to the male gaze. Why not address the real issues, and face the fact that there are women who commit terrible crimes and do horrible things? Why is it that women are only presented as delicate little objects and men as raging animals (exaggeration)? 

 

24 minutes ago, notme said:

but nothing you're said (in response?) addresses anything that I've said

I've responded to everything you've said in all my previous posts, is there anything you think I've missed?

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28 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

And dealing with it is discussing more productive ways to achieve the same message. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I share my opinion with thousands of other people who all believe this advert has very negative implications. 

 

The ad implies that all the men there were abusers of some sort. Where does it show that the men living in the present who are good people? I agree that men have the duty to help other men out, and prevent them from making poor decisions. 

 

I did not once suggest or imply that men do not deserve help or guidance. I don't think there is a double standard here, you've misunderstood. There are plenty of campaigns being run to promote different expressions of masculinity, and campaigns being run to help men accept the fact that they are indeed human, and it does not make them less of a man to cry or express sadness and grief. I agree that the double standard you've mentioned exists, but it isn't applicable to this situation. If you'd watched the clip, and seen the reason for the outrage others have expressed, you'd realise this has nothing to do with men and weakness and accepting help. On the contrary, the outrage is because men are being alienated and presented in an extremely negative light.

 

That's what many men already do. They don't need Gilette to tell them to be decent human beings.

But that in itself is so unbelievable. Why are women only being presented as sex objects and not as anything else. The only stereotypes against women are ones that conform to the male gaze. Why not address the real issues, and face the fact that there are women who commit terrible crimes and do horrible things? Why is it that women are only presented as delicate little objects and men as raging animals (exaggeration)? 

 

I've responded to everything you've said in all my previous posts, is there anything you think I've missed?

I thought you wanted a response to the ad - you said there was a debate about it.  In your OP you stated that you dislike the ad and then you asked for … Thoughts?  So I gave my thoughts. That is what I gave.  I was unaware that all posts needed to agree with you (and the "thousands" of others you keep mentioning) and was surprised by your increasing level of exasperation if they didn't. Repeating yourself with increasing sighs does not make your point more valid.    
 
If you take all responses that differ from yours as wrong, there is no sense replying.  I was talking in general as the ad was to the general public.  I thought you genuinely wanted people’s thoughts. A mistake I won't be repeating.
 
If you don’t want opinions other than your own, state that clearly... or write a blog.
Edited by Maryaam

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2 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

f you don’t want opinions other than your own, state that clearly... or write a blog

You could write one if the idea intrigued you so much. Please don't make such assumptions without knowing the intentions of others, it's just wrong. Maybe it's you who doesn't like to be proven wrong, or you simply want people to nod and agree with what you're saying. This is a public forum. For your information, I made this thread to have a debate with people. And let's just say, the way you misunderstand things and choose not to see where others are coming from, has been very...interesting. 

5 minutes ago, Maryaam said:

there is no sense replying.

Clearly not. I will continue having a debate with people willing to have one. Because that's what happens in a debate. You go back and forth with ideas and try to portray your viewpoint properly, and understand others. 

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I didn't see anything that said all men are bad. I saw an ad that said "the best a man can get" is to call out other men in their bad actions. I watched again. I still don't see it. Maybe someone can point it out. 

I'd be interested in hearing from men who are offended and can explain what it is in the ad that bothers them. Guys? Care to share your opinions? 

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So have any men seen the Ad and gone out to buy Gillette products?

I mean afterall it is advertising and the whole point of it is to get men to buy their products. Under the guise of social awareness or whatever but ultimately its just a vehicle to increase their sales.

 

 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

I didn't see anything that said all men are bad. I saw an ad that said "the best a man can get" is to call out other men in their bad actions. I watched again. I still don't see it. Maybe someone can point it out. 

I'd be interested in hearing from men who are offended and can explain what it is in the ad that bothers them. Guys? Care to share your opinions? 

Lol I don't believe it is offensive at all. I believe the ad should have been done differently, that's all. Especially the part where all the adult males, unrealistically, letting two kids fight.

What the world needs is more masculinity, and by that I mean a father figure for young boys, not less masculinity.

Edited by Sumerian

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I don't really take offence, I find it rather hilarious that gillette is trying to be the moral compass of men.

They immediately open with "bullying!". Lol.

Funny how they compare children playfully wrestling (which they imply in and of itself is negative, which is not true) to issues like sexual assault and rape.

At one point a guy says "smile pretty" or whatever, we don't know the context and some guy waltz in saying not cool as if he did something wrong. They were clearly at a house party and all knew each other, why assume negativity? I wonder if a girl can say "smile cutie" to a guy the same way, would we make a similar commercial?

Another point, a guy wants to approach a woman he thinks she is pretty, and a guy waltz in saying not cool as if the dude was about to rape her rather than just say hello. Perhaps the half-naked girl can say 'sorry not interested in talking to males I've never met before' if the guy says hello? And if he tries to put his hands on her or say something disgusting, THEN perhaps intervene?

Why paint it as if men have grotesque intentions and saying hello is equivalent to sexual assault?

Why line up a bunch of men as if they're all bad people who are rapists and most of whom encourage such behaviour?

Why is the kid crying getting comforted by his mother and not the father? As if the father doesn't care or is never home?

Etc. Etc.

At the end of the day, the term "toxic masculinity" is sexist in and of itself because it masculinity is bad, and that men should be more feminine like women, and this is what the advert pushes as if it's on the moral high-ground. 

 

Edited by dragonxx

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I'd like if the media created the picture of toxic femininity, and make an advert discouraging such behaviour as showing one's butt like a mule everywhere she goes, showing cleavage, having rude speech, crying a lot, arguing with everyone for the sake of arguing, yelling excessively and dramatically, etc. An advert telling other women not cool don't show your butt because just like speech can harm you mentally from the content of their (men's) words, vision can harm men mentally by what they perceive. lol.

Edited by dragonxx

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9 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

@ali_fatheroforphans could you please explain why you felt insulted by this advert?

Sister, this ad reinforces the male stereotype that is promoted by feminists. The users here don't realize the long term effects of these types of streotypes. It subconsciously makes people  in society have a bias against men, for example if there is a domestic violence case, men would never be favored. Feminists are turning the world against men in a very immature way, not realizing their rights. They are demonizing men through this disgusting advert.

Why don't we show what true masculinity is? How men can be caring, brave, sympathetic, and also masculine at the same time.

This is a very poor way to get the message across imo.

 I've heard everywhere that although toxic masculinity is horrible, radical feminism isn't the answer. This should summarize my whole argument.

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^^^

Assalam Alikum brother dragon

Would you please explain this, I don't understand.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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At the end of the day, no matter what commercial is made and no matter what progress there is in the feminist aspect of the world, a patriarchal society will always exist in terms of this day and age. 

Women will be continued to be objectified and portrayed as inferior as seen in magazines, tv shows, commercials, etc.

and men, regardless of how they’re “attacked” in these feministic views, will always be conveyed as more superior and the objectifior and it is displayed almost everywhere around us.

Gilletes pointless aim to create and construct her idea or opinion of men and masculinity really makes me ponder that she may really believe something will change... strange. I mean, do not misunderstand me, maybe one or two or even a hundred people could agree with her, but all in all, mysogyny exists, patriarchy takes over, and women are “created to be objectified”. That’s the way it’s been and that’s the way it will stay. That is speaking generally from the point of view of the west.

 

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7 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Why don't we show what true masculinity is? How men can be caring, brave, sympathetic, and also masculine at the same time.

They did show that, along with their tagline "the best a man can get". Did you watch the ad all the way to the end?

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I showed the ad to my sixteen year old son and asked him if he found it offensive. He said he was offended by a company using a social movement to sell products. 

My son the thoughtful consumer - I couldn't be more proud. 

I wonder if the whole "controversy" is contrived for free media coverage. 

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12 hours ago, dragonxx said:

At the end of the day, the term "toxic masculinity" is sexist in and of itself because it masculinity is bad, and that men should be more feminine like women, and this is what the advert pushes as if it's on the moral high-ground

I agree with most of what you said, but anything in excess is toxic in my opinion. Stereotypically 'masculine' traits include dominance, assertion, power etc, those qualities, if magnified, are toxic because they can cause problems for the men themselves and the people around them. The same thing applies to femininity. 

6 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

and men, regardless of how they’re “attacked” in these feministic views, will always be conveyed as more superior and the objectifior and it is displayed almost everywhere around us.

Although you're right in that women are always objectified, I think there has been significant progress. It's easy to label the objectification of women (don't get me wrong, it's disgusting and I'm the first to oppose it), but we also don't look the other side. Men are also objectified, but for some reason it's more acceptable. Take a look at all the adverts for male clothing. Take a look at all the movies. The male lead is always this big, tough, objectively handsome man, and there's always his girlfriend or partner who's sole role in the movie is to please the eyes of the male audience. Then you have the funny male sidekick who's always humiliated and laughed at, and coincidentally, in all the movies, it's always the larger man, who is seemingly less handsome than the man who plays the lead part. There is an injustice being served against men and women. Men are being told that the only way they can be liked and be successful is to have a certain body shape and look a certain way, and women are being told the same thing. Maybe women are sexualised more than men, but the objectification of men or women is still a bad thing at the end of the day.

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I don't know what ad some of y'all watched. Can someone please point out to me where the ad says all men are guilty? I really don't see it. 

From Wikipedia:

The campaign was introduced with a long-form commercial entitled "We Believe", and aims to promote positive values among men — condemning acts of bullying, sexism, sexual assault, and toxic masculinity. The campaign has faced a negative response — including from right-wingcritics[13] — for being accusatory towards its customers and "left-wing propaganda". There have also been calls for boycotts of Gillette.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillette

 

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and this is exactly what Gillette (and it’s advertising agency) wanted. People discussing its name and Ad. More you talk about, the more you know the name, thus the more people buy their products.

Quite a successful campaign, don’t you think ?

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12 hours ago, Laayla said:

^^^

Assalam Alikum brother dragon

Would you please explain this, I don't understand.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Haha no problem, you'd have to be familiar with the meme culture.

To keep it respectful, it's basically making fun at men who are weak with no personality, 'beta' males essentially.

 

5 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

I agree with most of what you said, but anything in excess is toxic in my opinion. Stereotypically 'masculine' traits include dominance, assertion, power etc, those qualities, if magnified, are toxic because they can cause problems for the men themselves and the people around them. The same thing applies to femininity. 

11 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

Of course! Totally agree, anything like that in excess is toxic, I'm just pointing out the term "toxic masculinity" inherently implies a negativity to all masculine traits. Most people don't consciously realize this inherent, demeaning connotation.

 

Edit: another funny thing to note, they've been actively removing top comments and pinning other comments, as well as removing dislikes lol. Goes to show most people aren't happy with gillette imposing their warped moral compass on everyone.

Edited by dragonxx

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3 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Haha no problem, you'd have to be familiar with the meme culture.

To keep it respectful, it's basically making fun at men who are weak with no personality, 'beta' males essentially.

 

LOOOOOOOOL :woot:

Are you familiar with this story?

Gilleffe THE BEST A MAAM CAN GET MACHT

 

BAHAHAHAHAH

 

 

warroom @warroom Goodbye Gillette. Hello Schick #GilletteAd

 

 

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10 hours ago, Akbar673 said:

People discussing its name and Ad. More you talk about, the more you know the name, thus the more people buy their products.

Quite a successful campaign, don’t you think ?

I think it'll balance out, or they'll lose out alot. I don't think their sales will go any higher though. Many people have started boycotting. So maybe there are new buyers, but not more than the people boycotting.

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

I think it'll balance out, or they'll lose out alot. I don't think their sales will go any higher though. Many people have started boycotting. So maybe there are new buyers, but not more than the people boycotting.

I don't believe that Gillette's existing and longstanding client base will give two hoots about the ad. I hold the belief that they will continue to use the Gillette products as before, irrespective of the ongoing debates. 

I watched the advert a while ago but from what I recall it was basically split into two portions. The first portion illustrated unacceptable behaviour/attitudes and responses and the second portion demonstrated how a millennial man; or indeed how every man should conduct themselves in that given scenario. My understanding was that the whole point of the advert was to demonstrate that a 'Gillette man', or the 'typical' Gillette consumer, would conduct themselves like the men in the second portion of the ad. In other words, making the connection that men who use Gillette products are 'good men'. This was of course strictly my interpretation of the ad when I first watched it. 

Regardless of one's take on the ad, I doubt that most men would be offended by the ad to the degree that they would consider boycotting the product.

If anything Gillette has got people talking about a very important subject and that in itself is a good outcome - irrespective of one's opinion of the ad itself. From a strictly Marketing perspective they do say that: 'No publicity is bad publicity'. As such it appears to be a win-win situation for both the society as a whole and for Gillette.

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On 1/17/2019 at 3:58 PM, Sumerian said:

A BIG chunk (perhaps majority) of criminals, abusers, and people that have made the wrong financial choices, among men, are people who have lived in a single parent household. When there is no father figure for your boys, very often they turn out to be a negative presence on society.

Source for this claim?

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On 1/16/2019 at 12:16 PM, 2Timeless said:

Here's a very interesting debate. If anyone wants to, you could watch the full ad on YouTube, but I'm not linking it here because it has some inappropriate images. 

I really dislike the ad because of how sexist it is. It just shows men at the worst and generalised that all men are the same, portraying them as predators and violent people. I think this ad is just an utter joke. Thoughts? Any men on here offended by it?

Are you me? Sometimes, when I read your posts, I feel like I’m reading my own thoughts. 

I was just thinking about adverts and how crap they are. In fact, I talked about how “Killing Us Softly” shows and perpetuates violence against women as well as the pornograhic attitudes toward sex. How women are made into children by the clothes and even the difference in the poses by male vs female models in ads.  

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1 hour ago, confusedandannoyed said:

Source for this claim?

This article cites alot of studies and statistics;

 https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brycecovert/2012/07/16/the-rise-and-downfall-of-single-mothers/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/don’t-deny-the-link-between-poverty-and-single-parenthood/2018/03/18/e6b0121a-2942-11e8-b79d-f3d931db7f68_story.html

Not to mention that a white child of an unmarried couple is likely to be poorer than a black child who is the child of a married couple.

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