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How can we tell if we are truly Syed?

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How can we tell if we are truly a Syed through our family lineage? My father sometimes uses the name Syed but i have never asked him about it because of my introvert shy personality. 

Is there an organisation that can help research my ancestry to prove whether i am truly a Syed? My dad was born in Lucknow and my mother in Hyderabad in India but both my parents families now are from from Karachi in Pakistan. My mums side are Rizvi's. My surname is Arif. 

 

Edited by Murtaza1
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You should ask your parents if family tree research has been done. Many South Asian syed families keep very detailed records and are quite proud of them.

If not, you can check birth records for recent ancestry, but it'll get to a point that you'll just have to assume it's correct. 

Maybe in the future, DNA testing will be a possible confirmation. As far as I know, there's no syed DNA test available at this time. 

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

You should ask your parents if family tree research has been done. Many South Asian syed families keep very detailed records and are quite proud of them.

If not, you can check birth records for recent ancestry, but it'll get to a point that you'll just have to assume it's correct. 

Maybe in the future, DNA testing will be a possible confirmation. As far as I know, there's no syed DNA test available at this time. 

Checking birth records sounds interesting. I need to find a proven method to do this 

Edited by Murtaza1
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Genetic test to see if you have any middle eastern dna at all 

My mothers family abidi syed from lucknow and they can trace it for 8 generations...funny thing when my 1st cousin did his Dna it was 90% indian 8% European 2,% south east asian something like that  ....NO MIDDLE EASTERN heritage detected 

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6 hours ago, notme said:

You should ask your parents if family tree research has been done. Many South Asian syed families keep very detailed records and are quite proud of them.

If not, you can check birth records for recent ancestry, but it'll get to a point that you'll just have to assume it's correct. 

Maybe in the future, DNA testing will be a possible confirmation. As far as I know, there's no syed DNA test available at this time. 

But all Syed must have some middle eastern genes 

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Genetic test to see if you have any middle eastern dna at all 

My mothers family abidi syed from lucknow and they can trace it for 8 generations...funny thing when my 1st cousin did his Dna it was 90% indian 8% European 2,% south east asian something like that  ....NO MIDDLE EASTERN heritage detected 

Could you recommend any reliable genetic tests? 

How much middle eastern percentage should we have? 

So mothers side even if they are Rizvi would count as being a Syed? 

15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

But all Syed must have some middle eastern genes 

Hopefully that will be an indication wether to proceed further with research related to family records such as census 

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:salam:

It may depend on the institution you make your test with, but my wife had one and it does not display genes as middle eastern, african or caucasian gene.

It gives one or several genetic groups which may be over representated in such and such part of the globe.

Edited by realizm
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  • 2 years later...
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On 1/15/2019 at 12:36 AM, Murtaza1 said:

How can we tell if we are truly a Syed through our family lineage? My father sometimes uses the name Syed but i have never asked him about it because of my introvert shy personality. 

Is there an organisation that can help research my ancestry to prove whether i am truly a Syed? My dad was born in Lucknow and my mother in Hyderabad in India but both my parents families now are from from Karachi in Pakistan. My mums side are Rizvi's. My surname is Arif. 

 

Salaam brother,

Ask a Shajra from your parents. Shajra means a book or register containing the ancestral tree.

I am too a syed and my grandfather did had a register. Which is now transferred to the generation of my parents and will come to us then. 

People in Lucknow too keep it, you must ask. It is sometimes important to know this because of the matters of Khums, Zakaat.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you

Edited by Zainuu
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8 hours ago, Zainuu said:

because of the matters of Khums, Zakaat.

Yes that's an important point. 

When a person doubts if he is Syed or not, then as a precaution he should neither accept khums (as he may not be Syed) nor Sadqa (as he may be a Syed). This is what I heard but I could be wrong. 

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Years ago, l read where there is a DNA (mitochondrial) for syed, and that someone named Brown had it. But because his genealogy could not be established, it is "not recognized" as decendency by KSA.

Personally, l'd  rather concentrate on my iman than who l was related to.

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:17 AM, notme said:

Many South Asian syed families keep very detailed records and are quite proud of them.

Tell me about it.:dry:

I frankly never understood the hype behind being a Syed. Be a devoted servant of Allah and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and that's better than anything else.

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Anything that is related in any way to the Prophet (s) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) has an importance and respect. This includes the places where they lived, the objects they used in their daily lives etc. etc. 

If we show respect to these non-living things, then why should we not show respect to their progeny, their descendants....the Syeds? 

Of course, if a Syed is not religious, then his lineage cannot elevate his rank. 

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I recall something my father told me, a thoughtful insight.

He stated that being a Syed is not a free pass at all of any sort, and in fact, being a Syed brings more responsibility on an individual to be strong in faith. His reasoning is that having a link such as this to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and all of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) means that one must uphold it, and that is done by strength in faith. Imagining Lady Fatimah s.a being disappointed in us is shattering, but for her to be further disappointed because we did not uphold faith despite being connected to her is even more shattering... May Allah Have Mercy on us all, may He and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) be pleased with us...

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14 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

If we show respect to these non-living things, then why should we not show respect to their progeny, their descendants....the Syeds? 

No. There are no such special respects for Sayyids actually if we trace back the religion. 

Respect is for every human being on earth if we ignore the actions. 

 

18 hours ago, starlight said:

frankly never understood the hype behind being a Syed. Be a devoted servant of Allah and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and that's better than anything else.

What I can guess is the great works of Sayyids (not masoomeen) in the past history. For example, Saadaat-e-Baahera are the sayyids from a group of 12 villages in India. The background of these villages is that they were established by the Sayyids and there family were extremely pious and kind.

I don't support these reasons but people who hold such 'respect' might be doing so because of the great works of some sayyids done in the past.

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2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

The background of these villages is that they were established by the Sayyids and their families were extremely pious and kind.

This is similar to one thing l have read. Which is, according to this diplomatic history book l read, in the 19th Century the Brits did an intense study of these syed claims. What they found was that most of these clams were dead-end false. What triggered this study was/is the unusually large number of families claiming descent when compared to the number of families with established lineage in other regions of West and South Asia.

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On 2/8/2021 at 4:21 AM, hasanhh said:

What they found was that most of these clams were dead-end false. What triggered this study was/is the unusually large number of families claiming descent when compared to the number of families with established lineage in other regions of West and South Asia.

In most of the cases, yes it is.

In south asia specifically, a lot of people lie about being a sayyid due to various reasons. So, false claims are there and they are many. 

But the example I quoted has a strong backing of History as well as proper registered proofs. 

This is not that small issue as it is considered. For instance, the turbans provided in Qum and Najaf to the qualified students differs according to lineage. 

Black [turban] is of the sayyids. White [turban] of non-sayyid shias. And there are others too that I don't know.

On 2/8/2021 at 4:21 AM, hasanhh said:

Which is, according to this diplomatic history book l read, in the 19th Century the Brits did an intense study of these syed claims.

Btw, I am curious to know about this so called 'study'. British imperialists were nice on conducting 'studies' for there own motives over here. So, if you get it then please share.

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

There are no such special respects for Sayyids

It depends on how you approach this topic. If a Syed himself demands that others show him respect just because he is a Syed, then that is arrogance and highly disliked in Islam. Unfortunately there are syeds or fake-syed who demand such respect - such people are clearly wrong. 

Having said that, if a person shows respect to a Syed who is very pious, religious, high-ranking in faith, then there is nothing wrong in this. In fact, every true momin will show respect to any human or even inanimate objects or even places which are linked to the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in any way at all. 

Historically, early Muslims used to show respect even to people who lived in Medina because they had something common with the Prophet (s) - residents of the same city. 

When a woman who was a lover of Ahlul Bayt came to see Zainab(عليه السلام) in prison in Damascus, she was not aware that the prisoners were the Ahlul Bayt themselves. When she found out that the prisoners were from Medina, she immediately got up from her chair and sat on the floor. Zainab (عليه السلام) asked her why she had done so. She replied: "Out of respect for the people of Medina." It was only later that she found out that the prisoners were ladies of Ahlul Bayt themselves. 

So if it is a natural religious emotion to respect anyone, or any place or anything linked to the Prophet (s), then why would one not respect Syeds as well?

Of course, a person whose own character is deviant, then he should not be respected just because of him being a Syed. 

But I have seen high ranking Shia non-Syed scholars giving condolences to Syed scholars in Mohurram by saying that it was their (Syeds') forefathers who were martyred in Kerbala. This is a way of showing respect. Perhaps the black turban of Syed scholars and white turban of non-Syed scholars represent the same thought process. 

But of course, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said:  If someone's deeds lower his position, his pedigree cannot elevate it. 

I believe this would mean that a man's pedigree (being a Syed) can elevate his position, if his deeds have not already lowered it. So there is nothing wrong in respecting someone for being a Syed, if that Syed has not himself lowered his status in total disregard to his pious pedigree. 

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On 2/8/2021 at 4:46 AM, Zainuu said:

Black [turban] is of the sayyids. White [turban] of non-sayyid shias. And there are others too that I don't know.

Btw, I am curious to know about this so called 'study'. British imperialists were nice on conducting 'studies' for there own motives over here. So, if you get it then please share.

Maybe l read wrong or something, plus l am not much into medals and uniforms; but as l understand it white [turban] is sayyid through mother and black [turban] through father.  ? ? ?

l read that 'study' back in the 90s. lt is possible l have it in my notes somewhere [:ko: Like l am going to be able to find anything in my messes.] l believe that this study was conducted to gauge what possible political resistance and conflict potential there was in South Asia.

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On 2/8/2021 at 6:04 AM, hasanhh said:

Maybe l read wrong or something, plus l am not much into medals and uniforms; but as l understand it white [turban] is sayyid through mother and black [turban] through father.  ? ? ?

I double checked. Black [turban] is for Sayyids. 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sayyid

White [turban] is of non-Sayyids. 

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Guest Fluffy Rabbit
On 1/15/2019 at 12:17 AM, notme said:

You should ask your parents if family tree research has been done. Many South Asian syed families keep very detailed records and are quite proud of them.

If not, you can check birth records for recent ancestry, but it'll get to a point that you'll just have to assume it's correct. 

Maybe in the future, DNA testing will be a possible confirmation. As far as I know, there's no syed DNA test available at this time. 

do you not feel proud to belong to prophet Muhammad (S). why then you feel bad about syeds! there is no reason for you to feel bad about what they feel sister please leave this thing sister it may reduce your virtues and add into syeds. acknowledge the wishes of Allah (S). we are also proud to be his creation and if we are not syeds then syeds are created for us so that seeing them we may find in them pictures of our beloved prophet (S). look with the eyes of one who loves sister.

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4 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

do you not feel proud to belong to prophet Muhammad (S). why then you feel bad about syeds! there is no reason for you to feel bad about what they feel sister please leave this thing sister it may reduce your virtues and add into syeds. acknowledge the wishes of Allah (S). we are also proud to be his creation and if we are not syeds then syeds are created for us so that seeing them we may find in them pictures of our beloved prophet (S). look with the eyes of one who loves sister.

Surah Hujurat verse 13:

O mankind! Indeed We created you from a male and a female,and made you nations and tribes that you may identify yourselves with one another. Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most Godwary among you. Indeed Allah is all-knowing, all-aware.

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Guest Random passerby

Salam

Generally speaking, if you are from India/Pakistan and your paternal Haplogroup is J1c3d, then there is a very strong possibility you are a true Syed as this haplogroup does not exist within India/Pakistan and is a very Semitic bloodline. Generally speaking there are quite a bit of outside genetics influences among South Asian Shias that are not found within the Sunni population such as Turkmen, North/East African, North/South Caucuses, Arab, Anatolian, Iranian etc. I would say maybe around 10-20% of South Asian Shia Syeds are likely real Syed, would be good if there was a more extensive study.

If you take a Y-dna test via FamilyTreeDNA.com, you can match your results to people of the Hashemi tribe still living in Saudi Arabia among other Saudi's who are from the Quraysh.

Here are the results of the Hashemi people: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d?iframe=ycolorized

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Agreed, that's the same one I was referencing. There are not many Pakistanis/Indians on it but I think that's because not many have been tested yet. 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/j1el147?iframe=yresults

From the FamilyTreeDNA page

With respect to FGC8712 subclade, this project concluded that:
 – L859+ individuals are descendants of The Quraysh tribe
 – FGC8703+ individuals are descendants of The Banu Hashem clan
 – FGC10500+ individuals are descendants of Imam Ali AS
 – FGC30416+ individuals are descendants of Imam Hussein AS

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Guest Syed Ali Kazmi

Got the 23 and me test done. It shows layers upon layers of generations. The test goes back to 8 generations and indicates we came from Mesopotamia (present day Iran Iraq) some 7 generations ago. As my paternal and maternal side is the same it was easier for the trace. Just to check if it actually does work my brother got himself tested as well and the app marked him out as my sibling by itself. It further stated Arab and north African ancestry which stands correct as Imam Musa al Kazims mother was from north Africa

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  • 4 months later...

For checking that you need shajrah(family tree) if you don't have one then there are doubts 

But belive me many syeds have shajrah and are very proud of that 

Don't care about Afghanis telling you that you ain't one

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Guest Canary

How can anyone use a name that means LORD AND MASTER in Islam? I thought these were names to be avoided? 

Where does it say using Sayid or a name making someone a lord or master is permitted? Doesn't it say the opposite

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Guest Inam Ali
On 1/15/2019 at 7:04 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

Genetic test to see if you have any middle eastern dna at all 

My mothers family abidi syed from lucknow and they can trace it for 8 generations...funny thing when my 1st cousin did his Dna it was 90% indian 8% European 2,% south east asian something like that  ....NO MIDDLE EASTERN heritage detected 

So like do you have family shajra? , or Your family has been maybe marrying with the locals

 

 

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Guest SYED TANVEER AHMAD
On 1/15/2019 at 5:21 PM, Murtaza1 said:

Could you recommend any reliable genetic tests? 

How much middle eastern percentage should we have? 

So mothers side even if they are Rizvi would count as being a Syed? 

Hopefully that will be an indication wether to proceed further with research related to family records such as census 

 

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