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Any one else outraged by the mahr these days??

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47 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Totally agree with you here, it's all about balance. Glad we can come to an understanding.

It's clear for example, the Prophet (pbuhf) explained that if you marry a girl who comes from a wealthy family, she has the right to demand from her husband the same treatment in terms of wealth she gets from her parents. So this would include the demand of a high mahr, meaning it isn't necessarily wrong. People should give in proportion to their financial background.

But it is certainly better that a woman ask for a small mahr, because her status will be higher in the eye of Allah.

I agree with you in that matter, whats small money for you could be big amount for me. Finance differs according to peoples backgrounds, state of living, and the countries economy.

Our scholars give the hadith of Imam Ali and Sayeda Fatimas dowry in order to show people they should be humble. But I have heard no scholar giving an exact amount of money because they know it varies from family to family, or country to country, or social class to social class, or even city to city.

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28 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

 

Can you two guys elaborate ?

:ws:

Khula is when the wife asks for divorce and according to islamic rulings she has to pay the husband something in order to 'convince' him to divorce her. He can either ask her to forgot try mahr or he can ask for something more can mahr, property or money. 

Edited by starlight
Added reply to salam

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9 minutes ago, starlight said:

:ws:

Khula is when the wife asks for divorce and according to islamic rulings she has to pay the husband something in order to 'convince' him to divorce her. He can either ask her to forgot try mahr or he can ask for something more can mahr, property or money. 

Thanks, I did not know that the husband could ask something in return.

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2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This is nonsensical. It’s a man’s job to provide financial stability, and a woman’s Mehr is meant to provide financial security in case of a divorce. Not every Hadith is correct. This Hadith goes against the Qur'an. 

Parents or women asking for a ridiculous amount of money has nothing to do with the man being financially stable. We have hadiths that encourages low mahrs. How does any of that go against the Qur'an?

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52 minutes ago, laithAlIRAQI said:

 We have hadiths that encourages low mahrs. How does any of that go against the Qur'an?

Ok to wrap this up quickly:

[Qur'an 2:233] Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father so wishes. The father shall provide the mother's food and clothing equitably. No one shall be burdened beyond his ability. No mother shall be harmed on account of her infant, nor shall the father be harmed because of his infant. (If the father dies), his inheritor shall assume these responsibilities. If the infant's parents mutually agree to part, after due consultation, they commit no error by doing so. You commit no error by hiring nursing mothers, so long as you pay them equitably. You shall observe God, and know that God is Seer of everything you do.

[Qur'an 2:236] You commit no error by divorcing the women before touching them, or before setting the dowry for them. In this case, you shall compensate them - the rich as he can afford and the poor as he can afford - an equitable compensation. This is a duty upon the righteous.

[Qur'an 2:240] Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. God is Almighty, Most Wise.

[Qur'an 2:241] The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

[Qur'an 65:6] You shall allow them to live in the same home in which they lived with you, and do not make life so miserable for them that they leave on their own. If they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. If they nurse the infant, you shall pay them for this service. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. If you disagree, you may hire another woman to nurse the child.

[Qur'an 65:7] The rich husband shall provide support in accordance with his means, and the poor shall provide according to the means that God bestowed upon him. God does not impose on any soul more than He has given it. God will provide ease after difficulty.  

 

Edited by BowTie

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Marriage is permanent contract where the woman gave her nafs to the man, and the man will accept the responsibilities to take care of it as if he taking care of himself.

1.  Mahr should be affordable and reasonable.  Make it such a that the husband can can afford to give the amount of that mahr to the wife every month or when she in need of it out of necessity.  Mahr is meant as gift to wife.  Can you imagine that the husband is giving his wife every month as minimum as her mahr.  If he could afford, then can triple the amount.  The monthly gift to the wife would remind both husband and wife that they as responsible married couple.  Man like to give gifts to woman, and woman by nature like to received gifts.  So women, please demand the mahr that your husband can afford to give you monthly.  And the husband must work hard to present the amount monthly, or when she is in needed in addition to household expenses, place to stay, transport and others.  She can use that money on things she wishes to get.

2.  In case that both party, the man and woman, are worried of potential divorce, both party can can have written marriage agreement (prior to marriage (remember that a marriage is a contract and there is an aqad).  For example...the women would state that "If my husband divorces me unjustly, he has to pay me so much for..., provide a house, a car...so on.  Husband also can put his demands if divorce occurs due to unjust from the wife side (maybe woman fall in love with another rich man, or interferences by family).  So husband or wifr might not resort to divorce unjustly, or else face the consequents in this world. Pay hefty price to the oppressed party.

 

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15 hours ago, BowTie said:

And until she settles down after a divorce with lets say she had her kids, and everything? 

Anyway, no one is forcing you to be logical, everyone has the choice to be a cheapskate if they want to

Just because you do not personally consider/perceive it logical, does not mean it is not logical. Please try and be a bit more humble.

What do you mean cheapskate? Who would be the cheapskate in the case of a low mahr when it is the women who decides the mahr she wants, is she a cheapskate towards herself then? Your not making sense with that statement in my opinion.

I think your exaggerating in your head what is actually being discussed here. The subject of discussion was outrageous mahrs, not "normal" mahrs or "low" mahrs.

The issue that is being discussed is how the concept of mahr is being used as a symbol of status by some people, high mahr = classy girl. The mahr becomes outrageous because it leaves the realm of reality and enters the realm of fantasy. Some families literally want the weight of their daughter in gold as her mahr, this is a mockery of the divine given concept of mahr.

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

The issue that is being discussed is how the concept of mahr is being used as a symbol of status by some people, high mahr = classy girl. The mahr becomes outrageous because it leaves the realm of reality and enters the realm of fantasy. Some families literally want the weight of their daughter in gold as her mahr, this is a mockery of the divine given concept of mahr.

Woah definetely never heard of this now.

Where does that happen? Iraq or Pakistan?

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4 minutes ago, Miss Wonderful said:

Also you need to a publish 100 page book of poems on how beautiful your wife is with the prose  and rhyme scheme becoming harder and harder with every page.

Thank you, but the brother has just decided he wants to be single for the rest of his life.:grin:

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I'm outraged by a lot of things. The silly and transient cultural evolutions of the ummah with regard to rules of marriage is not one of them. If the mahr is too high, men will refuse to marry her. If a man is too stingy with his acceptance, women will refuse to marry him. It's in everyone's best interest to reach an agreement. It can't stay like this for an entire generation, or we will cease to be, and neither women nor men are so ignorant as to see their friends with reasonable mehr marrying and not make the connection between unreasonable demands and spinsterhood/bachelorhood. 

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:13 PM, BowTie said:

And until she settles down after a divorce with lets say she had her kids, and everything? 

Anyway, no one is forcing you to be logical, everyone has the choice to be a cheapskate if they want to

You calling Imam Ali (عليه السلام) a cheapskate?

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$20,000 mahr is in most cases disgraceful.  Any woman who asked this from me I would have told goodbye.  I understand cultures are different but its already hard enough for people to get married without imposing extortionate mahr on young men.  A mu'mina would follow Sayyida Fatimas example.  Yes often its the parents who make this request, but I would expect the woman to be embarrassed at her parents insistence on such a value.  If this wasnt clear to me then a definite goodbye 

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Mahr

On different accounts Lady Fatima (a)'s Mahr was somewhere between 400 to 500 Dirhams.[8]which is called "Mahr al-Sunna". A narration from Imam al-Rida (a)identifies the Mahr al-Sunna (Mahr in the Tradition) as 500 Dirhams.[9] This number is equivalent to 1250-1500 grams of silver.[10] Every ten silver Dirhams were equal to one gold Dinar in that era, therefore Mahr al-Sunnah was equivalent to 170-223 grams gold (the numbers are approximate because of various opinions regarding the weight of Dirhams and Dinars)[11] 

 

 Imam 'Ali (a) sold his belongings and paid Lady Fatima's (a) Mahr,[12] however there are various opinions about what he sold. Some historians believe it was his armor, while others name sheepskin or a Yemeni shirt, or a camel. Regardless of what he sold, he took the money to the Prophet (s). Without counting, the Prophet (s) gave a bit of the money to Bilal and said, "Buy a nice perfume for my daughter with this money."[13] He then gave Abu Bakr some of the money and said, "Buy the things my daughter needs with this money" and sent 'Ammar b. Yasir and a couple of other of his companions with him to approve the things that are bought.[14] Al-Shaykh al-Tusi lists what was bought:

  • A shirt worth seven Dirhams
  • A kerchief worth four Dirhams
  • Black bathing gown sawn in Khaybar
  • Bed cloth sawn from palm leaves
  • Two mattresses with a thick layer of cotton on them, one filled with palm fiber and the other with wool.
  • Four leather cushions from Ta'if, filled with lemongrass (this plant has small leaves that have medical effects.)
  • A curtain from Wool
  • A mat woven in Hajar (it seems that Hajar refers to the metropolis of Bahrain. There also exists a village called Hajar near Medina)
  • Hand-Mill
  • Copper basin
  • Leather waterskin
  • Wooden bowl
  • A bowl for milking
  • A waterskin for water
  • An ewer with plaster
  • A green jar
  • A couple of vases[15]

It is said that when Fatima (a) saw a needy women after her wedding, she gave her new shirt and sufficed herself with a used shirt.[16]

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Marriage_of_Imam_'Ali_(a)_and_Lady_Fatima_(a)

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13 hours ago, abuhaydar said:

You calling Imam Ali (عليه السلام) a cheapskate?

They should have put some surprise sound effect music in the background as you asked this question.

:bye: 

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13 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

$20,000 mahr is in most cases disgraceful.  Any woman who asked this from me I would have told goodbye.  I understand cultures are different but its already hard enough for people to get married without imposing extortionate mahr on young men.  A mu'mina would follow Sayyida Fatimas example.  Yes often its the parents who make this request, but I would expect the woman to be embarrassed at her parents insistence on such a value.  If this wasnt clear to me then a definite goodbye 

I take back the harsh language but still think that such a mahr request is inappropriate 

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On 1/17/2019 at 1:36 PM, .InshAllah. said:

I take back the harsh language but still think that such a mahr request is inappropriate 

I don't see the harsh language.

People should see things like a high mahr as a filter. If someone asks you for one, thank God you found out about this person's probable major character flaws before you married them. In most cases don't even try to change their mind, because you may be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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On 1/15/2019 at 2:51 AM, Qa'im said:

So me personally: if it is the right woman, I'd say yes in a heartbeat for up to 20k. Between 20 and 30, I'd have to think really hard about it, and try to negotiate it. Over 30, I'd have to kindly decline. Over 50, I might tell them to calm down.

Quote

10-20k is a minimum safety net for women

If up to 20k is the minimum safety net, then why is 30k (1.5x) too much? And between 20k and 30k worthy of downward negotiation?

Quote

especially if women have not completed their education, have not started their careers, and are pregnant or have young children.

Does 20k allow a single person to sustain themselves more than 12-18 months, leave aside a pregnant woman? In many situations the wife may need a lot more. E.g. a medical student in their 1st year who was dependent on her husband.

What about costs for things such as mental help if the divorced woman is subsequently depressed?

What about non-financial costs? If the mahr is supposed to remove her from harm due to a divorce, then why didn't Islam prescribe anything for non-financial difficulties? Although I can understand the weakness in that argument.

In the case of pregnancy, don't forget that Islamically this situation has already been covered, the waiting period is up to birth and the father must provide for the child.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Why does Mahr always have to be money? 

If the groom really loved his bride then he would give her a ring or a necklace, just my opinion.

It seems like the brides parents just want money.

Edited by Murtaza1

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On 1/15/2019 at 1:26 PM, habib e najjaar said:

And also, a measure of his generosity. It would be funny for a very well off man to insist on wanting to pay a paltry amount because it is sunnah to do so. People tend to forget that generosity is also sunnah :D

He could demonstrate his generosity by giving the money to charity instead.

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6 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

He could demonstrate his generosity by giving the money to charity instead.

Charity is a continuous act, irrespective of his financial status and capacity. Mahr is a one time thing, I really don't think it should be a policy for the man to want to pay a small amount. It is a different issue for the woman to ask for a small amount.

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18 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Charity is a continuous act, irrespective of his financial status and capacity. Mahr is a one time thing, I really don't think it should be a policy for the man to want to pay a small amount. It is a different issue for the woman to ask for a small amount.

I was specifically responding to the notion that mahr is a test for generosity. I don't see how charity being a continuous act negates the fact that it can be used as a measure of generosity instead of the mahr. If the wife and her family want to see his generosity, he can give 100k to some destitute people and have his in-laws as witnesses. A high mahr would have to be justified for reasons other than being a potential measure of wealth.

Quote

While Islam encourages lower mahr, it has not set it as a fixed rule, nor set a specific ceiling for this. We must also keep in mind the fact that in the early years of Islam, when most Muslim men had been significantly cut off from their financial resources (like during the boycotts, or getting disowned by family, or having to escape their hometowns/families etc), to allow the mahr to be very high (contextually) would have discouraged a lot of marriages from happening. At the same time, in order to avoid the women accepting the lower mahrs being seen as less valuable, or of less "worth" than the non Muslim women receiving much higher mahrs, Islam encouraged lower mahrs and made it a religious encouragement to give lower mahrs.

You have theorised that a low mahr was encouraged because of the poverty of the Muslim community. However you know that the Muslims were not poor throughout the lives of all 12 Imams {s}. There were very wealthy Muslims at certain times and yet do we have any evidence that the wealthy were encouraged to give higher mahrs?

I theorise that one reason a low mahr is encouraged is because it removes social pressure and difficulty from the poorer men. If I was a billionaire I would refuse a high mahr on the principle that it promotes the societal acceptance of the phenomenon. If the rich don't do it, then the poor wont have as much pressure to do it.

I can also theorise that a low mahr was promoted because it asks the wives to give importance to other characteristics of the man, rather than his wealth. I.e. she shouldn’t marry him for his money. If Islam didn’t promote a low mahr, what would that do to society? It would be worse than it is.

Quote

Secondly, the sum of Mahr which was given for Lady Fatima ((عليه السلام)) was low, but not the lowest possible at her time,

How does that justify a high mahr? It only justifies not the lowest amount. But maybe that was your point.

Quote

Further, we are also told that the Mahr of Lady Khadija was 400 gold coins. She was significantly more well off than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), but her terms were accepted.

Reports differ. Some say she paid her own mahr.

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