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Any one else outraged by the mahr these days??

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When the Prophet wed Sayyeda Fatima to Imam Ali a.s, he asked him for a mahr. Imam Ali a.s said all he had was his armor and sword. So the Prophet instructed him to sell his armor. He sold it for 500 dirhams. And that was his mahr. It is mustahhab for the mahr to be around that much, not more. 
scholars have said 500 dirhams in today's money is around 2500- 3000$.

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1 hour ago, abuhaydar said:

When the Prophet wed Sayyeda Fatima to Imam Ali a.s, he asked him for a mahr. Imam Ali a.s said all he had was his armor and sword. So the Prophet instructed him to sell his armor. He sold it for 500 dirhams. And that was his mahr. It is mustahhab for the mahr to be around that much, not more. 
scholars have said 500 dirhams in today's money is around 2500- 3000$.

In London, $3,000 are peanuts. It will barely cover 1 month of flat rent, with bills to pay, and food and transportation. But in India, $3,000 can give you up to 6 months if not more.

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

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2 hours ago, BowTie said:

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

Regardless, 1400 years ago it was still just one shield for the mahr of the daughter of the mercy to all mankind (pbuhf). It was still relatively nothing therefore your point is moot.

Or did you really think that the price the shield fetched could provide food for 6 months? Or even a couple of months?

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5 hours ago, Hassan- said:

10-20k is the most common amount amongst the Lebanese people, it’s not too much nor too little, but just reasonable like you said.

Yes, it is similar in my culture, though I have seen it go up to 50k.

With regards to the mahr of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), Sayyida Fatima got Amir al-Mu'mineen (عليه السلام), so unless you are Amir al-Mu'mineen, you should not expect a mahr like his. Ali (عليه السلام) had no wealth, and it would not be befitting to attach any kind of number to Fatima (عليه السلام). Yes, low muhur are recommended in general.

There are reasons why I am saying 10-20k. I am a proponent of early marriage. Marriage can put women in a very vulnerable position, especially if women have not completed their education, have not started their careers, and are pregnant or have young children. A divorce in this situation can put her in a very bad situation, especially if she does not have easy access to her parents and family (which is common). 10-20k is a minimum safety net for women, and generally it is women who are hit the hardest by a divorce (reputation etc).

I understand that not everyone has that kind of money on hand, but mahr does not need to be paid in one chunk. That kind of money is still significantly less than your student loans and your annual salary on a minimum wage job. In that sense, it is quite reasonable. If you can't afford that on a multi-year basis, then you probably are not ready for the costs of permanent marriage. Food will cost your family a few hundred dollars per month (even if you are being frugal).

Some families will ask for a relatively high mahr just to make sure that you are serious, and have the ability to provide. Some will ask for a ridiculous mahr just as a way of saying "no" to you.

So me personally: if it is the right woman, I'd say yes in a heartbeat for up to 20k. Between 20 and 30, I'd have to think really hard about it, and try to negotiate it. Over 30, I'd have to kindly decline. Over 50, I might tell them to calm down.

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50 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Yes, it is similar in my culture, though I have seen it go up to 50k.

With regards to the mahr of Sayyyida Fatima (عليه السلام), Sayyida Fatima got Amir al-Mu'mineen (عليه السلام), so unless you are Amir al-Mu'mineen, you should not expect a mahr like his. Ali (عليه السلام) had no wealth, and it would not be befitting to attach any kind of number to Fatima (عليه السلام). Yes, low muhur are recommended in general.

There are reasons why I am saying 10-20k. I am a proponent of early marriage. Marriage can put women in a very vulnerable position, especially if women have not completed their education, have not started their careers, and are pregnant or have young children. A divorce in this situation can put her in a very bad situation, especially if she does not have easy access to her parents and family (which is common). 10-20k is a minimum safety net for women, and generally it is women who are hit the hardest by a divorce (reputation etc).

I understand that not everyone has that kind of money on hand, but mahr does not need to be paid in one chunk. That kind of money is still significantly less than your student loans and your annual salary on a minimum wage job. In that sense, it is quite reasonable. If you can't afford that on a multi-year basis, then you probably are not ready for the costs of permanent marriage. Food will cost your family a few hundred dollars per month (even if you are being frugal).

Some families will ask for a relatively high mahr just to make sure that you are serious, and have the ability to provide. Some will ask for a ridiculous mahr just as a way of saying "no" to you.

So me personally: if it is the right woman, I'd say yes in a heartbeat for up to 20k. Between 20 and 30, I'd have to think really hard about it, and try to negotiate it. Over 30, I'd have to kindly decline. Over 50, I might tell them to calm down.

I like your thinking :) Jazakallah

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21 hours ago, BowTie said:

It depends on each country. Also depends from city to city.

for example, where I come from $50,000 is what is agreed upon most people.

it depends on the country or city or village, what you can do with $2,000 in your country is different than other countries.

People asking for more than average, I think its stupid. Because for example even if the lady got a mahr of 500,000$ there can be many guys who would torture the woman so bad and not divorce her to an extrent that the womans father would pay the guy to give her a divorced.

while someone could have a low mahr, but her husband has akhlaq, and might send her an extra monthly salary out of respect. 

:salam:

Precisely.

A high mahr in the case of conflicts can prove to be very problematic. When both spouses accuse each other of this and that, the husband will not let go of his money and this leads to cyclical trouble.

Edited by realizm

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6 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Regardless, 1400 years ago it was still just one shield for the mahr of the daughter of the mercy to all mankind (pbuhf). It was still relatively nothing therefore your point is moot.

Or did you really think that the price the shield fetched could provide food for 6 months? Or even a couple of months?

I don’t suppose you think you know the answer of what this type of money can give you back in the days :party:

Save it Brother :grin:

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Assalamu alaykum,

While Islam encourages lower mahr, it has not set it as a fixed rule, nor set a specific ceiling for this. We must also keep in mind the fact that in the early years of Islam, when most Muslim men had been significantly cut off from their financial resources (like during the boycotts, or getting disowned by family, or having to escape their hometowns/families etc), to allow the mahr to be very high (contextually) would have discouraged a lot of marriages from happening. At the same time, in order to avoid the women accepting the lower mahrs being seen as less valuable, or of less "worth" than the non Muslim women receiving much higher mahrs, Islam encouraged lower mahrs and made it a religious encouragement to give lower mahrs. 

Secondly, the sum of Mahr which was given for Lady Fatima (a.s) was low, but not the lowest possible at her time, as there are historical incidences and reports about women who would be married for a few dirhams or for being taught to recite a specific surah of the Qur'an. And it was also an amount arrived at after he offered all that he owned, i.e his sword, and horse and the armour, out of which only the armour was sold. So, it would be logical to conclude that if giving the lowest possible mahr was the preferred thing, the Prophet S.a.w would have set the example with his daughter. Further, we are also told that the Mahr of Lady Khadija was 400 gold coins. She was significantly more well off than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), but her terms were accepted.

Further, we need to keep in mind, that not all people are the same. Aside from the security for the women issues raised by other members on the thread, there is also the aspect of how the men see it. I know of a number of cases where men who had gone proposing to marry somewhere, were told of a certain mahr, and responded that they would pay/commit double, triple or tenfold. These are just people I know, so I am sure it is not something that uncommon for some men to feel good about paying a lot, or to feel obligated to pay more. 

What is wrong is for parties to a marriage to go abnormally beyond their means to pay or commit themselves to a mahr that becomes a strangling rope around their necks, or a paper figure which they are unable to pay anyway (I have seen this a lot in Iran, where an agreed mahr is set at pretty high, for example 2000 gold coins, out of which a few, say 14 coins are paid out during the wedding, but the balance is impossible to pay even if the marriage falls through, and the parties are then given an amount set by the court or agreed upon by the two parties e.g 300 coins, or 20 coins etc). I think a good gauge is to pay the maximum one is able to, because either way, an excessively high mahr will not keep a marriage (for those who argue it is a financial deterrent to divorce), nor will the punishment suffice to undo any damage done by the broken home. Plus, in most cases where the Mahr is paid upfront, by the time a divorce comes up, the amount has long been spent (Usually towards the marriage, or related to the marriage, or children).

Like a member said above, in a way it is a measure of the mans ability to maintain the wife. And also, a measure of his generosity. It would be funny for a very well off man to insist on wanting to pay a paltry amount because it is sunnah to do so. People tend to forget that generosity is also sunnah :D

Edited by habib e najjaar

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5 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Precisely.

A high mahr in the case of conflicts can prove to be very problematic. When both spouses accuse each other of this and that, the husband will not let go of his money and this leads to cyclical trouble.

Ws. 

Hmm.. even in case of trouble, if the marriage had been consummated, he would no longer be entitled to the amount in full, if at all.

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15 hours ago, BowTie said:

In London, $3,000 are peanuts. It will barely cover 1 month of flat rent, with bills to pay, and food and transportation. But in India, $3,000 can give you up to 6 months if not more.

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

In London women also work and make carriers. Islam is in no need of reforming, rather its is the minds of humans who are deforming.

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My wives mahr was 1 Qur'an, 1 rose and a hajj trip. We had the aqd at the masjid, the wedding at my parents house, we did not exchange rings since thats not an islamic tradition and thats it.

If you want a marriage to be successful its better give saddaqa and make duas instead of high mahrs just for the sake of reputation and status, not even for the intention of securing your future in the case of divorce.

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4 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

My wives mahr was 1 Qur'an, 1 rose and a hajj trip. We had the aqd at the masjid, the wedding at my parents house, we did not exchange rings since thats not an islamic tradition and thats it.

MashaAllah may Allah always keep you both happy!! 

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2 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Ws. 

Hmm.. even in case of trouble, if the marriage had been consummated, he would no longer be entitled to the amount in full, if at all.

In case of Khula the husband can demand even more than mahr.

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

In London women also work and make carriers. Islam is in no need of reforming, rather its is the minds of humans who are deforming.

And until she settles down after a divorce with lets say she had her kids, and everything? 

Anyway, no one is forcing you to be logical, everyone has the choice to be a cheapskate if they want to

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2 minutes ago, BowTie said:

And until she settles down after a divorce with lets say she had her kids, and everything? 

Anyway, no one is forcing you to be logical, everyone has the choice to be a cheapskate if they want to

Following what the Imams (عليه السلام) has recommended is being a cheapskate? 

In case of a divorce the man is supposed to provide for the kids anyway and no amount of mahr is going to last a lifetime for a woman. 

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9 hours ago, BowTie said:

I don’t suppose you think you know the answer of what this type of money can give you back in the days :party:

 Save it Brother :grin:

Interesting considering you don't know yourself but made similar assumptions to that which you attribute to me.

Unfortunately for you though, I do know what the mahr got them. The mahr was used to get a few perfumes for Sayeda Fatema (a.s), a couple of jugs, and barely anything for the kitchen, and something to sit on. That's basically it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The house they lived in was given to them for free by a wealthy Muslim who owned many houses.

Can $2000-3000 not provide even more than all that in this day and age, in London or anywhere else? Or are you implying that your women buy perfumes no less than a few thousand dollars a piece, the most expensive of vases, the most luxurious of couches, and the freshest of foods cooked by a 3 michelin-star chef? Quite a bit exaggerated but you catch my drift (I think lol).

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38 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Interesting considering you don't know yourself but made similar assumptions to that which you attribute to me.

Unfortunately for you though, I do know what the mahr got them. The mahr was used to get a few perfumes for Sayeda Fatema (a.s), a couple of jugs, and barely anything for the kitchen, and something to sit on. That's basically it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The house they lived in was given to them for free by a wealthy Muslim who owned many houses.

Can $2000-3000 not provide even more than all that in this day and age, in London or anywhere else? Or are you implying that your women buy perfumes no less than a few thousand dollars a piece, the most expensive of vases, the most luxurious of couches, and the freshest of foods cooked by a 3 michelin-star chef? Quite a bit exaggerated but you catch my drift (I think lol).

Dude, why would Sayeda Fatima get the money. Money goes after a divorce occurs, not before.

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11 minutes ago, BowTie said:

Dude, why would Sayeda Fatima get the money. Money goes after a divorce occurs, not before.

It a norm that pay money after divorce but it’s recommended & it’s mustahab to pay dowry right after marriage .

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Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

It a norm that pay money after divorce but it’s recommended & it’s mustahab to pay dowry right after marriage .

There are two types of dowries, the one which she gets right away (which usually I guess in most societies its agreed upon to be a Qur'an), the one for INCASE a divorce happens, we have to agree that according to different economies of the world and that Muslims are scattered around the world, each country has a different average dowry, Also certain cities might have an agreed upon dowry different than the city next to it.

But what I don't understand is that we have TWO extreme point of views, 1 point of view that accepts having a very HIGH dowry, and a second point of view which forces a minimal dowry comparing it to the days of the Prophet. Now what I don't understand, is if someone said, hey lets meet in the middle, he becomes less of a Muslim in peoples eyes. Frankly, the ones acting ultra religious don't different than non-religious.

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Welcome BowTie

The mahr is technically different to the one we think of in the Indo Pak Subcontinent.

A bit like our understanding of laan and the proper understanding.

 

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25 minutes ago, BowTie said:

Dude, why would Sayeda Fatima get the money. Money goes after a divorce occurs, not before.

What ???? 

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5 minutes ago, BowTie said:

 But what I don't understand is that we have TWO extreme point of views, 1 point of view that accepts having a very HIGH dowry, and a second point of view which forces a minimal dowry comparing it to the days of the Prophet. Now what I don't understand, is if someone said, hey lets meet in the middle, he becomes less of a Muslim in peoples eyes. Frankly, the ones acting ultra religious don't different than non-religious.

Totally agree with you here, it's all about balance. Glad we can come to an understanding.

It's clear for example, the Prophet (pbuhf) explained that if you marry a girl who comes from a wealthy family, she has the right to demand from her husband the same treatment in terms of wealth she gets from her parents. So this would include the demand of a high mahr, meaning it isn't necessarily wrong. People should give in proportion to their financial background.

But it is certainly better that a woman ask for a small mahr, because her status will be higher in the eye of Allah.

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The strangest case was the proposal of “Abdul Rahman Ibn Awf”, that rich man who, by the customs of Age of Ignorance, looked at everything through the material viewing window, visualizing a heavy dowry as the sign of a woman’s personal status and the superior position of the husband.
He came to see the Prophet (S), saying:
“If you will give Fatimah to me in marriage, I will make her a dower of one hundred camels with loads of precious material from Egypt along with 10000 Dinars in gold!”

The Prophet (S) was so enraged by this meaningless proposal that he took a handful of gravel and threw it towards Abdul Rahman and said:
“You thought that I was a servant of money and wealth that you are expressing pride in your money and wealth."

https://www.al-Islam.org/Fatima-az-zahra-world-s-most-outstanding-lady-makarim-shirazi/fatimah-loyal-wife-Ali

Prophet (s.a.w.a.) says: “Amongst my followers, those women are excellent, who are beautiful and their Mehr is also less.” 
(Wafi, Kitab-e-Nikah p. 15).

 

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6 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Ws. 

Hmm.. even in case of trouble, if the marriage had been consummated, he would no longer be entitled to the amount in full, if at all.

:salam:

 

4 hours ago, starlight said:

In case of Khula the husband can demand even more than mahr.

Can you two guys elaborate ?

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On 1/14/2019 at 6:31 AM, laithAlIRAQI said:

I've heard and read somewhere that the Prophet said worst of women are those that ask for high mahr.

This is nonsensical. It’s a man’s job to provide financial stability, and a woman’s Mehr is meant to provide financial security in case of a divorce. Not every Hadith is correct. This Hadith goes against the Qur'an. 

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