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In the Name of God بسم الله

Any one else outraged by the mahr these days??

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I think 10-20k is pretty reasonable.

My wives mahr was 1 Qur'an, 1 rose and a hajj trip. We had the aqd at the masjid, the wedding at my parents house, we did not exchange rings since thats not an islamic tradition and thats it. If

Days of Sayeda Fatima are different than now. Necesseties and needs were different.

An appropriate Mehr can be anything, and any amount, since the Mehr is used to financially support a women in case of a divorce. 

There isn’t an issue with a higher Mehr. 

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3 hours ago, aaljibar said:

$20,000-$40,000!!!

I expected at max $2000

It’s opposite in India. Where the big Mehr is frowned upon (they call it to limit to Mehr of Fatima (‘a), even Sunnis do) and pressure the girl’s family to pay up the price of the groom. Doctors get paid the highest, followed by ITs and down. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_death

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5 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

It’s opposite in India. Where the big Mehr is frowned upon (they call it to limit to Mehr of Fatima (‘a), even Sunnis do) and pressure the girl’s family to pay up the price of the groom. Doctors get paid the highest, followed by ITs and down. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_death

Interesting 

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Jan. 14, 2019 | 12:12 AM

In Saudi weddings, small is the new beautiful

Anuj Chopra| Agence France Presse
 
 
JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia: It was a Saudi wedding like any other - clutching a decorative sword, the groom bobbed and swayed in a traditional dance. But there was one striking difference - a tiny guest list.Weddings in the oil-rich kingdom are typically lavish affairs, with a bulging guest list which is seen both as a social obligation and a symbol of affluence.

Such expectations are often a source of economic strain for grooms, who foot most of the bill that includes renting out exorbitantly-priced marriage halls where nuptial celebrations are usually held.

But millennials like Basil al-Bani are increasingly hosting weddings at home, defying family traditions and social pressure and making huge savings instead.

Fewer than two dozen close relatives and friends were invited to the 26-year-old insurance executive’s recent wedding feast comprising kabsa - a traditional rice and meat dish - at his ancestral home in western Jeddah.

It was a microscopic figure by Saudi standards.

“People go all crazy with weddings, inviting hundreds of guests and spending millions in one night to get the best singers, best bands, best thobes,” said Maan al-Bani, the 21-year-old brother of the groom, dressed in a gold-trimmed cloak.

“We wanted to do something different with a smaller celebration at home, which can also be fun.”

Although prevalent for years, home weddings symbolize a war on excess by the country’s youth as much as they are a barometer of the lagging economy.

They appear to be gaining popularity in the petro-state in a new age of austerity amid low crude prices.

Saudi Arabia has one of the world’s highest concentrations of superrich households.

But with cuts to cradle-to-grave subsidies and a new value-added tax amid soaring youth unemployment, Saudi households are seeing stagnating disposable incomes and what experts call a lifestyle downgrade.

The change in fortunes in the once tax-free kingdom facing a youth bulge is a stress point that poses a challenge for Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, the country’s de facto leader.

And there are signs of an impact on the Saudi wedding market.

Annual spending on marriages in the kingdom exceeds two billion riyals ($533 million), the highest in the Arab world, organizers of the Saudi international wedding fair said last year.

Statistics on frugal home marriages are hard to come by, but two wedding planners with a large Saudi clientele told AFP that average spending on marriages had dropped by 25 percent over the past year, with many trimming back the pomp and pageantry.

A retailer of wedding invitation cards in Riyadh said business fell by 70 percent over the period, as many customers demand rich designs at cheaper prices.

“Weddings should not start with a bank loan,” Murtada al-Abawi, a 29-year-old Uber driver, said.

It typically costs 80,000 riyals to rent a wedding hall and pay for the dowry and bridal accoutrements - including gold and makeup - a price Abawi was unwilling to pay.

He created a family storm when he suggested a small soiree in the local community center for his own wedding in 2016.

A physical altercation broke out with his elder brother, who branded the idea shameful because “people will call us poor.”

His parents and those of the would-be bride were equally furious but, ultimately, they all caved when Abawi cannily resorted to emotional blackmail.

He threatened to remain unmarried and flee to neighboring Bahrain, a relatively liberal archipelago that many conservative Saudis view as a seedy offshore Las Vegas.

Abawi then put his foot down: no dowry, no gold, no post-wedding party.

For the main wedding party, he used another ploy - he invited all his friends and relatives so as not to offend anyone, but hosted the late-evening celebration on a busy weeknight, forcing families with school-age children to voluntarily opt out.

The wedding, ultimately, cost only 9,000 riyals.

The experience led Abawi to start an “affordable marriage” self-help group in his native eastern city of Al-Ahsa, which counsels young men on tackling the social pressure to overspend.

Not everyone is cutting wedding expenditure, however, with many Saudis still splurging on designer prom dresses for the bride along with belly dancers from Egypt for the entertainment.

Many still succumb to the pressure - or choose to get hitched overseas to circumvent the cultural minefield that hosting a small wedding can become.

In a 2017 newspaper column titled “Expensive weddings, a waste of money,” writer Abdel-Ghani al-Gash chided the kingdom’s religious scholars for failing to educate the masses that weddings were not an occasion to show off.

Weddings, typically segregated by gender, are also known for wasting colossal amounts of food. Mountains of food, which culturally reflect generosity and class, often end up in the trash can.

The pressure to keep up appearances amid rising costs and unemployment is prompting many young men to delay marriage up to the age of 40, the Saudi Gazette newspaper reported in September.

But even Saudis who can afford to splurge are discovering an aesthetic value in simplicity and cutting back waste.

“My wife looks back at our wedding and says ‘why did we even spend 9,000 riyals?’” Abawi said.

“We could have traveled with that money.”

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Living/2019/Jan-14/473950-in-Saudi-weddings-small-is-the-new-beautiful.ashx

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4 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

An appropriate Mehr can be anything, and any amount, since the Mehr is used to financially support a women in case of a divorce. 

There isn’t an issue with a higher Mehr. 

There is for the guy. Honestly I don't see myself paying more than 5K.

Edited by aaljibar
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23 hours ago, aaljibar said:

$20,000-$40,000!!!

I expected at max $2000

It depends on each country. Also depends from city to city.

for example, where I come from $50,000 is what is agreed upon most people.

it depends on the country or city or village, what you can do with $2,000 in your country is different than other countries.

People asking for more than average, I think its stupid. Because for example even if the lady got a mahr of 500,000$ there can be many guys who would torture the woman so bad and not divorce her to an extrent that the womans father would pay the guy to give her a divorced.

while someone could have a low mahr, but her husband has akhlaq, and might send her an extra monthly salary out of respect. 

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13 hours ago, BowTie said:

It depends on each country. Also depends from city to city.

for example, where I come from $50,000 is what is agreed upon most people.

it depends on the country or city or village, what you can do with $2,000 in your country is different than other countries.

People asking for more than average, I think its stupid. Because for example even if the lady got a mahr of 500,000$ there can be many guys who would torture the woman so bad and not divorce her to an extrent that the womans father would pay the guy to give her a divorced.

while someone could have a low mahr, but her husband has akhlaq, and might send her an extra monthly salary out of respect. 

Anyone who has a mahr higher than what Sayyida Zainab (s.a) has calculated for this day and age, is not worth my time and money.

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1 hour ago, aaljibar said:

Anyone who has a mahr higher than what Sayyida Zainab (s.a) has calculated for this day and age, is not worth my time and money.

Days of Sayeda Fatima are different than now. Necesseties and needs were different.

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There are narrations where our Masoomeen (عليه السلام) stressed upon low Mehr.

As a general rule Nikkah should not be made difficult for either party. People wouldn't ask for a high Mehr of they realise it guarantees neither happiness nor prosperity for the couple. 

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12 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

An appropriate Mehr can be anything, and any amount, since the Mehr is used to financially support a women in case of a divorce. 

There isn’t an issue with a higher Mehr. 

I've heard and read somewhere that the Prophet said worst of women are those that ask for high mahr.

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I think the amount of mahr increase is related to higher divorce rates as well. 

Women want/need to be taken care off.

That doesn't make sense, just because someone is paying more doesn't necessarily mean he will be a good husband. There are rich douchebags out there.

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51 minutes ago, notme said:

I don't see why a guy would get angry. He can just say no. When the women find themselves unable to marry a decent fellow, perhaps their fathers will reconsider what they are asking.

Sister our capitalist solutions of supply & demand control don’t work there. For every sensible person, Asia has 100 opportunists who would pickup the tab. 

I don’t go to western restaurants in poorer countries to pay the same amount that I pay here (why should a $9 KFC meal cost the same in Vietnam? There are some halal ones in Muslim areas) but they are full to the capacity by the locals. Asians have their own ways of following the herd.

If you mix another ShiaChat’er complaining about spread of Zina in ME with how hard Arabs have made it to marry their men off, you get the picture clear. 

Edited by AMR5
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13 hours ago, Laayla said:
Jan. 14, 2019 | 12:12 AM

In Saudi weddings, small is the new beautiful

Anuj Chopra| Agence France Presse
 
 
JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia: It was a Saudi wedding like any other - clutching a decorative sword, the groom bobbed and swayed in a traditional dance. But there was one striking difference - a tiny guest list.Weddings in the oil-rich kingdom are typically lavish affairs, with a bulging guest list which is seen both as a social obligation and a symbol of affluence.

Such expectations are often a source of economic strain for grooms, who foot most of the bill that includes renting out exorbitantly-priced marriage halls where nuptial celebrations are usually held.

But millennials like Basil al-Bani are increasingly hosting weddings at home, defying family traditions and social pressure and making huge savings instead.

Fewer than two dozen close relatives and friends were invited to the 26-year-old insurance executive’s recent wedding feast comprising kabsa - a traditional rice and meat dish - at his ancestral home in western Jeddah.

It was a microscopic figure by Saudi standards.

“People go all crazy with weddings, inviting hundreds of guests and spending millions in one night to get the best singers, best bands, best thobes,” said Maan al-Bani, the 21-year-old brother of the groom, dressed in a gold-trimmed cloak.

“We wanted to do something different with a smaller celebration at home, which can also be fun.”

Although prevalent for years, home weddings symbolize a war on excess by the country’s youth as much as they are a barometer of the lagging economy.

They appear to be gaining popularity in the petro-state in a new age of austerity amid low crude prices.

Saudi Arabia has one of the world’s highest concentrations of superrich households.

But with cuts to cradle-to-grave subsidies and a new value-added tax amid soaring youth unemployment, Saudi households are seeing stagnating disposable incomes and what experts call a lifestyle downgrade.

The change in fortunes in the once tax-free kingdom facing a youth bulge is a stress point that poses a challenge for Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, the country’s de facto leader.

And there are signs of an impact on the Saudi wedding market.

Annual spending on marriages in the kingdom exceeds two billion riyals ($533 million), the highest in the Arab world, organizers of the Saudi international wedding fair said last year.

Statistics on frugal home marriages are hard to come by, but two wedding planners with a large Saudi clientele told AFP that average spending on marriages had dropped by 25 percent over the past year, with many trimming back the pomp and pageantry.

A retailer of wedding invitation cards in Riyadh said business fell by 70 percent over the period, as many customers demand rich designs at cheaper prices.

“Weddings should not start with a bank loan,” Murtada al-Abawi, a 29-year-old Uber driver, said.

It typically costs 80,000 riyals to rent a wedding hall and pay for the dowry and bridal accoutrements - including gold and makeup - a price Abawi was unwilling to pay.

He created a family storm when he suggested a small soiree in the local community center for his own wedding in 2016.

A physical altercation broke out with his elder brother, who branded the idea shameful because “people will call us poor.”

His parents and those of the would-be bride were equally furious but, ultimately, they all caved when Abawi cannily resorted to emotional blackmail.

He threatened to remain unmarried and flee to neighboring Bahrain, a relatively liberal archipelago that many conservative Saudis view as a seedy offshore Las Vegas.

Abawi then put his foot down: no dowry, no gold, no post-wedding party.

For the main wedding party, he used another ploy - he invited all his friends and relatives so as not to offend anyone, but hosted the late-evening celebration on a busy weeknight, forcing families with school-age children to voluntarily opt out.

The wedding, ultimately, cost only 9,000 riyals.

The experience led Abawi to start an “affordable marriage” self-help group in his native eastern city of Al-Ahsa, which counsels young men on tackling the social pressure to overspend.

Not everyone is cutting wedding expenditure, however, with many Saudis still splurging on designer prom dresses for the bride along with belly dancers from Egypt for the entertainment.

Many still succumb to the pressure - or choose to get hitched overseas to circumvent the cultural minefield that hosting a small wedding can become.

In a 2017 newspaper column titled “Expensive weddings, a waste of money,” writer Abdel-Ghani al-Gash chided the kingdom’s religious scholars for failing to educate the masses that weddings were not an occasion to show off.

Weddings, typically segregated by gender, are also known for wasting colossal amounts of food. Mountains of food, which culturally reflect generosity and class, often end up in the trash can.

The pressure to keep up appearances amid rising costs and unemployment is prompting many young men to delay marriage up to the age of 40, the Saudi Gazette newspaper reported in September.

But even Saudis who can afford to splurge are discovering an aesthetic value in simplicity and cutting back waste.

“My wife looks back at our wedding and says ‘why did we even spend 9,000 riyals?’” Abawi said.

“We could have traveled with that money.”

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Living/2019/Jan-14/473950-in-Saudi-weddings-small-is-the-new-beautiful.ashx

He will complete his haraam with three more 

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8 hours ago, aaljibar said:

That doesn't make sense, just because someone is paying more doesn't necessarily mean he will be a good husband. There are rich douchebags out there.

It's the opposite brother.

The more payment is in case he is a bad husband.

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2 hours ago, notme said:

I don't see why a guy would get angry. He can just say no. When the women find themselves unable to marry a decent fellow, perhaps their fathers will reconsider what they are asking.

As a matter of fact, I think (need to confirm) but if at the time of Nikah the groom has doubts about being able to afford the mahr, the Nikah becomes invalid.

I have heard this, not confirmed it.

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When the Prophet wed Sayyeda Fatima to Imam Ali a.s, he asked him for a mahr. Imam Ali a.s said all he had was his armor and sword. So the Prophet instructed him to sell his armor. He sold it for 500 dirhams. And that was his mahr. It is mustahhab for the mahr to be around that much, not more. 
scholars have said 500 dirhams in today's money is around 2500- 3000$.

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1 hour ago, abuhaydar said:

When the Prophet wed Sayyeda Fatima to Imam Ali a.s, he asked him for a mahr. Imam Ali a.s said all he had was his armor and sword. So the Prophet instructed him to sell his armor. He sold it for 500 dirhams. And that was his mahr. It is mustahhab for the mahr to be around that much, not more. 
scholars have said 500 dirhams in today's money is around 2500- 3000$.

In London, $3,000 are peanuts. It will barely cover 1 month of flat rent, with bills to pay, and food and transportation. But in India, $3,000 can give you up to 6 months if not more.

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

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2 hours ago, BowTie said:

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

Regardless, 1400 years ago it was still just one shield for the mahr of the daughter of the mercy to all mankind (pbuhf). It was still relatively nothing therefore your point is moot.

Or did you really think that the price the shield fetched could provide food for 6 months? Or even a couple of months?

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5 hours ago, Hassan- said:

10-20k is the most common amount amongst the Lebanese people, it’s not too much nor too little, but just reasonable like you said.

Yes, it is similar in my culture, though I have seen it go up to 50k.

With regards to the mahr of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), Sayyida Fatima got Amir al-Mu'mineen (عليه السلام), so unless you are Amir al-Mu'mineen, you should not expect a mahr like his. Ali (عليه السلام) had no wealth, and it would not be befitting to attach any kind of number to Fatima (عليه السلام). Yes, low muhur are recommended in general.

There are reasons why I am saying 10-20k. I am a proponent of early marriage. Marriage can put women in a very vulnerable position, especially if women have not completed their education, have not started their careers, and are pregnant or have young children. A divorce in this situation can put her in a very bad situation, especially if she does not have easy access to her parents and family (which is common). 10-20k is a minimum safety net for women, and generally it is women who are hit the hardest by a divorce (reputation etc).

I understand that not everyone has that kind of money on hand, but mahr does not need to be paid in one chunk. That kind of money is still significantly less than your student loans and your annual salary on a minimum wage job. In that sense, it is quite reasonable. If you can't afford that on a multi-year basis, then you probably are not ready for the costs of permanent marriage. Food will cost your family a few hundred dollars per month (even if you are being frugal).

Some families will ask for a relatively high mahr just to make sure that you are serious, and have the ability to provide. Some will ask for a ridiculous mahr just as a way of saying "no" to you.

So me personally: if it is the right woman, I'd say yes in a heartbeat for up to 20k. Between 20 and 30, I'd have to think really hard about it, and try to negotiate it. Over 30, I'd have to kindly decline. Over 50, I might tell them to calm down.

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50 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Yes, it is similar in my culture, though I have seen it go up to 50k.

With regards to the mahr of Sayyyida Fatima (عليه السلام), Sayyida Fatima got Amir al-Mu'mineen (عليه السلام), so unless you are Amir al-Mu'mineen, you should not expect a mahr like his. Ali (عليه السلام) had no wealth, and it would not be befitting to attach any kind of number to Fatima (عليه السلام). Yes, low muhur are recommended in general.

There are reasons why I am saying 10-20k. I am a proponent of early marriage. Marriage can put women in a very vulnerable position, especially if women have not completed their education, have not started their careers, and are pregnant or have young children. A divorce in this situation can put her in a very bad situation, especially if she does not have easy access to her parents and family (which is common). 10-20k is a minimum safety net for women, and generally it is women who are hit the hardest by a divorce (reputation etc).

I understand that not everyone has that kind of money on hand, but mahr does not need to be paid in one chunk. That kind of money is still significantly less than your student loans and your annual salary on a minimum wage job. In that sense, it is quite reasonable. If you can't afford that on a multi-year basis, then you probably are not ready for the costs of permanent marriage. Food will cost your family a few hundred dollars per month (even if you are being frugal).

Some families will ask for a relatively high mahr just to make sure that you are serious, and have the ability to provide. Some will ask for a ridiculous mahr just as a way of saying "no" to you.

So me personally: if it is the right woman, I'd say yes in a heartbeat for up to 20k. Between 20 and 30, I'd have to think really hard about it, and try to negotiate it. Over 30, I'd have to kindly decline. Over 50, I might tell them to calm down.

I like your thinking :) Jazakallah

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21 hours ago, BowTie said:

It depends on each country. Also depends from city to city.

for example, where I come from $50,000 is what is agreed upon most people.

it depends on the country or city or village, what you can do with $2,000 in your country is different than other countries.

People asking for more than average, I think its stupid. Because for example even if the lady got a mahr of 500,000$ there can be many guys who would torture the woman so bad and not divorce her to an extrent that the womans father would pay the guy to give her a divorced.

while someone could have a low mahr, but her husband has akhlaq, and might send her an extra monthly salary out of respect. 

:salam:

Precisely.

A high mahr in the case of conflicts can prove to be very problematic. When both spouses accuse each other of this and that, the husband will not let go of his money and this leads to cyclical trouble.

Edited by realizm
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6 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Regardless, 1400 years ago it was still just one shield for the mahr of the daughter of the mercy to all mankind (pbuhf). It was still relatively nothing therefore your point is moot.

Or did you really think that the price the shield fetched could provide food for 6 months? Or even a couple of months?

I don’t suppose you think you know the answer of what this type of money can give you back in the days :party:

Save it Brother :grin:

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Assalamu alaykum,

While Islam encourages lower mahr, it has not set it as a fixed rule, nor set a specific ceiling for this. We must also keep in mind the fact that in the early years of Islam, when most Muslim men had been significantly cut off from their financial resources (like during the boycotts, or getting disowned by family, or having to escape their hometowns/families etc), to allow the mahr to be very high (contextually) would have discouraged a lot of marriages from happening. At the same time, in order to avoid the women accepting the lower mahrs being seen as less valuable, or of less "worth" than the non Muslim women receiving much higher mahrs, Islam encouraged lower mahrs and made it a religious encouragement to give lower mahrs. 

Secondly, the sum of Mahr which was given for Lady Fatima (a.s) was low, but not the lowest possible at her time, as there are historical incidences and reports about women who would be married for a few dirhams or for being taught to recite a specific surah of the Qur'an. And it was also an amount arrived at after he offered all that he owned, i.e his sword, and horse and the armour, out of which only the armour was sold. So, it would be logical to conclude that if giving the lowest possible mahr was the preferred thing, the Prophet S.a.w would have set the example with his daughter. Further, we are also told that the Mahr of Lady Khadija was 400 gold coins. She was significantly more well off than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), but her terms were accepted.

Further, we need to keep in mind, that not all people are the same. Aside from the security for the women issues raised by other members on the thread, there is also the aspect of how the men see it. I know of a number of cases where men who had gone proposing to marry somewhere, were told of a certain mahr, and responded that they would pay/commit double, triple or tenfold. These are just people I know, so I am sure it is not something that uncommon for some men to feel good about paying a lot, or to feel obligated to pay more. 

What is wrong is for parties to a marriage to go abnormally beyond their means to pay or commit themselves to a mahr that becomes a strangling rope around their necks, or a paper figure which they are unable to pay anyway (I have seen this a lot in Iran, where an agreed mahr is set at pretty high, for example 2000 gold coins, out of which a few, say 14 coins are paid out during the wedding, but the balance is impossible to pay even if the marriage falls through, and the parties are then given an amount set by the court or agreed upon by the two parties e.g 300 coins, or 20 coins etc). I think a good gauge is to pay the maximum one is able to, because either way, an excessively high mahr will not keep a marriage (for those who argue it is a financial deterrent to divorce), nor will the punishment suffice to undo any damage done by the broken home. Plus, in most cases where the Mahr is paid upfront, by the time a divorce comes up, the amount has long been spent (Usually towards the marriage, or related to the marriage, or children).

Like a member said above, in a way it is a measure of the mans ability to maintain the wife. And also, a measure of his generosity. It would be funny for a very well off man to insist on wanting to pay a paltry amount because it is sunnah to do so. People tend to forget that generosity is also sunnah :D

Edited by habib e najjaar
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5 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Precisely.

A high mahr in the case of conflicts can prove to be very problematic. When both spouses accuse each other of this and that, the husband will not let go of his money and this leads to cyclical trouble.

Ws. 

Hmm.. even in case of trouble, if the marriage had been consummated, he would no longer be entitled to the amount in full, if at all.

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15 hours ago, BowTie said:

In London, $3,000 are peanuts. It will barely cover 1 month of flat rent, with bills to pay, and food and transportation. But in India, $3,000 can give you up to 6 months if not more.

How is the logic behind giving a number comparing year 2019 to 1,000 years ago, when life was completely different? Does becoming a Muslim mean you should live according to 1,300 years ago and be oblivious to how life is different now?

In London women also work and make carriers. Islam is in no need of reforming, rather its is the minds of humans who are deforming.

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