Decline of Islamic values in the Middle East (zina)

[Murtaza1]

I read this News Week article about prostitution in Morocco which was posted by brother @Ashvazdangheas a reply to me but the discussion thread started by brother @Gabenowa has disappeared. 

https://www.newsweek.com/prostitution-morocco-sex-workers-426189

I do not usually watch or read the news but on this occasion I read it. My thoughts are that it is mind boggling why these prostitutes in the middle east do zina when they are getting aids, being beaten, raped and fear for their life not to mention punishment in hell and barzak . It is sad that their countries government is aware of it but allows, using it as a solution for unemployment. 

These women have no remorse and love doing zina. They say they get new punch and power and are as bad as their government. The government even allows secret HIV tests. I agree with some of the men interviewed in the article. I agree with the men interviewed in this article that say blaming abusive fathers, siblings and unemployment are lame excuses for breaking holy rules and dishonouring families. A woman must never forsaken her dignity, no matter what happens. Its a unforgivable crime against religion and education. 

 

Where did it all go wrong for the middle east? I am comparing the middle east with the Indian subcontinent. In Pakistan this does not happen. I have travelled to visit relatives living in alleyway areas of Karachi which are similar to morocco's Tangies alleys but there are no prostitutes in Pakistan.

 

I was born in Europe and grew up here. I feel very offended by these prostitutes symbolising western society as a indication of a sinful society by mentioning tight clothes, hotels, cafes etc. 

 

People in Pakistan and 1st and 2nd generation Pakistanis in the UK use all these outlets but do not commit zina.

 

To close the article with more punch and degradation they say some of these sex workers in Morocco are have strong religious beliefs, god fearing, pray ever day for forgiveness but still commit major sins of prostitution, drugs and alcohol. 

 

Its mind boggling. As a second generation Pakistani in the west i don’t understand the minds of the people in the middle east. 

 

At the end of the day we have to realise this is mass media. They control people's minds and spread propaganda. As i said i don’t usually watch or read the news. I fear being conditioned. My life improved 15 years ago when i stopped watching or reading it. 

 

As a Shia I am drawn towards Sunni women who tell me about the hadith of the blacksmith. As a metaphor from the hadith of the Blacksmith the sisters tell me we smell like the person with whom we keep company, we smell of musk in good company. 

 

I use a halal dating service in the west that represent a niche market of professional Asian Muslims. They told me about this hadith. However they do not have any Shia candidates on their database. It is not surprising because they told me they have rejected many wealthy men because they want to use women as bounties. 

 

I compare the middle east to Pakistan. I can confidently say that Sunni and Shia girls which are brought up in strong Islamic homes do not practice muta or Sunni version of muta which the brother mentioned in the other discussion. This is because they are taught strong Islamic values by their parents. I am not interested in what men do. We have to respect and protect our sisters. 

 

Do not paint all Muslims with the same brush because many of us such as in Pakistan and 1st and 2nd generation Pakistanis abroad are taught strong Islamic values which we adhere to. It is what nations are build on. No wonder why Islam was completed in the Middle East. They need it the most. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Gabenowa]

Morocco is an African country, a North African country. A maghrebi. I don’t like African countries being "middle east" as if they belong to Arabs even if Arabs rule those countries coz the natives of those countries are Berbers. Anyway sorry I can’t help myself. I am an African patriot. Thanks to your Imam Ali (AS) who is becoming my Imam the more I read about him I am applying truth no matter what. Anyway just because a country is a member of the Arab League and these various Islamic leagues does not make it's people immune to materialism and the reality of matter. You cannot judge what human beings do. I'm not knowledgeable about conditions in Morocco but what I do know is that the ruling family, like all countries with monarchies in Africa and Asia, are corrupt. The King does not serve his people, his loyalty is to France and the United States and I know behind the scenes Morocco and Israel are bosom buddies. You don’t know the types of economic conditions that exist in Morocco, well I don’t know but a woman would never sell her body willingly except in white countries. 

I just don’t think you should be so quick to condemn people. You must know the facts beforehand so that you can come to informed conclusions especially about other human beings. Capitalism rules, Globalisation has wrecked the world and it literally kills hundreds of millions of people through the wars caused by it. 

The administrators of this site don’t like me. Im not surprised my thread was deleted.

[BowTie]

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. Each country in the world has prostitutes. Its unfortunate, but whats so shocking about that?

[Murtaza1]

1 hour ago, Gabenowa said:

You cannot judge what human beings do...I just don’t think you should be so quick to condemn people...the ruling family, like all countries with monarchies in Africa and Asia, are corrupt. Capitalism rules, Globalisation has wrecked the world and it literally kills hundreds of millions of people through the wars caused by it. You don’t know the types of economic conditions that exist in Morocco, well I don’t know but a woman would never sell her body willingly except in white countries. 

 

Brother I am not here to judge or condemn people. I only observe their actions. Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى will punish them. Of course many countries are corrupt as Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى mentions in the Quran. As other males have also said in the Newsweek article, economic situations, globalisation etc are lame excuses for holy crimes.

For you to make that statement about Muslim women in the west goes against the spirit of Islam and dignity of these sisters because it attacks their honour and respect. Please re read what I wrote about Islamic values in families.

1 hour ago, BowTie said:

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. Each country in the world has prostitutes. Its unfortunate, but whats so shocking about that?

Show me where prostitution exists in Pakistan. You will not find it because the country is build on strong Islamic principles.

Maybe you are a revert and do not understand how such things effect our communities. Maybe you should visit a strong Muslim Pakistani or similar community. It really is a matter of an attack on ones pride, deep self-respect which we are taught about refraining from major sins such as drinking alcohol and extramarital sexual intercourse.   

I did not know it would be so difficult to understand when even the christians agree that adultery is a major sin but here we are representing Islam, so we should know better and stand up against it instead of saying so what.

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Murtaza1]

@Ashvazdanghe sorry brother I now realise it was not you that posted that Newseek article but I am not able to edit my post

[Panzerwaffe]

In Pakistan there is a LOT of prostitution and premarital sex 

don’t have that holier than thou attitude brother 

[Murtaza1]

34 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

In Pakistan there is a LOT of prostitution and premarital sex 

don’t have that holier than thou attitude brother 

No that is not true. You have to realise that the media sensationalises everything. What makes you think that it is not Muta marriage practised but misreported. 

It is not a matter of being holier or anything. We should stand up against the enemies of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and Islam by condemning such major sins instead of saying "so what"? 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, Gabenowa said:

The administrators of this site don’t like me. Im not surprised my thread was deleted.

Mods / admin and others at SC do like you but may be  not your some views that may have gone against SC rules I presume,

But you are able to get the maximum likes for the day ie Jan 12, 2019. and you are considered leader for  that day. Check the following link:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/pastleaders/

Edited January 13, 2019 by skyweb1987

[Gabenowa]

1 hour ago, Murtaza1 said:

Brother I am not here to judge or condemn people. I only observe their actions. Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى will punish them. Of course many countries are corrupt as Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى mentions in the Quran. As other males have also said in the Newsweek article, economic situations, globalisation etc are lame excuses for holy crimes.

For you to make that statement about Muslim women in the west goes against the spirit of Islam and dignity of these sisters because it attacks their honour and respect. Please re read what I wrote about Islamic values in families.

Show me where prostitution exists in Pakistan. You will not find it because the country is build on strong Islamic principles.

Maybe you are a revert and do not understand how such things effect our communities. Maybe you should visit a strong Muslim Pakistani or similar community. It really is a matter of an attack on ones pride, deep self-respect which we are taught about refraining from major sins such as drinking alcohol and extramarital sexual intercourse.   

I did not know it would be so difficult to understand when even the christians agree that adultery is a major sin but here we are representing Islam, so we should know better and stand up against it instead of saying so what.

 

The Gulf monarchies including the Al-Sauds fly in prostitutes from all over the world or they fly to their secret orgy locations. I have read of prostitution rings in Pakistan and all over the Islamic world. Just because you don’t see it, does not mean it does not happen. The Taliban are recorded as one of the most serial molesters of young boys extremely sick no different to Catholic priests. I've actually noticed that the most religious beings are the most sick animals on this god-forsaken planet we call earth.

No Islamic values will ever be stronger than reality. if material conditions exist that allow for women to sell their bodies as a means to survive then that is what will happen and if Brother you hold backward views about "holy crimes" then indeed this world will stay in the gutter because you REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE REALITY. MATERIAL CONDITIONS ARE A REALITY AND IT IS WE WHO MUST CHANGE THEM. not using the Quran and Islam to judge mankind and the effects of evil on mankind. THAT IS NO DIFFERENT TO MADNESS. do you not SEE HOW FAITH WITHOUT INTELLECT HAS DESTROYED THIS RELIGION? and caused untold suffering on countless human beings.

and understand one thing: I am not a racist, I am a lifelong victim of racism but where white people are concerned, I don’t care how "CHRISTIAN" THEY CLAIM TO BE, I SEE IBLIS. I SEE SATAN. don’t lecture me about Islamic principles about race. i don’t see Arabs practicing that and neither do I see Indian Muslims in South Africa practice those very Islamic principles about prejudice you seem so intent on lecturing me about. 

I have read a lot about atheists who were once muslims and its such mental frames of thought of refusing to acknowledge material reality as an undeniable reality that led them to abandon Islam. Every human being on this earth is driven by subconscious instincts to survive. Those subconcious instincts are why a women will sell her body to survive and even feed her family if need be. That is why I love Sufism, they acknowledge all this material reality and the effects it has on human beings and completely disengage themselves from the modern world to live simple pious lives. The way to deal with the realities imposed on humanity is not to hold the same ideas as the Taliban BECAUSE IT WILL SOLVE NOTHING. NOTHING. YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO HOLD ISLAMIC VALUES ABOVE REALITY AND YOU WILL NOT BE THE LAST but you know what? The world will continue to descend into anarchy and evil. And no promised messiah will descend from the heavens to save anyone until people change the world for themselves realistically and not believing in religious fundamentalist rubbish.

[ShiaMan14]

4 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

I read this News Week article about prostitution in Morocco which was posted by brother @Ashvazdangheas a reply to me but the discussion thread started by brother @Gabenowa has disappeared. 

https://www.newsweek.com/prostitution-morocco-sex-workers-426189

I do not usually watch or read the news but on this occasion I read it. My thoughts are that it is mind boggling why these prostitutes in the middle east do zina when they are getting aids, being beaten, raped and fear for their life not to mention punishment in hell and barzak . It is sad that their countries government is aware of it but allows, using it as a solution for unemployment. 

These women have no remorse and love doing zina. They say they get new punch and power and are as bad as their government. The government even allows secret HIV tests. I agree with some of the men interviewed in the article. I agree with the men interviewed in this article that say blaming abusive fathers, siblings and unemployment are lame excuses for breaking holy rules and dishonouring families. A woman must never forsaken her dignity, no matter what happens. Its a unforgivable crime against religion and education. 

 

Where did it all go wrong for the middle east? I am comparing the middle east with the Indian subcontinent. In Pakistan this does not happen. I have travelled to visit relatives living in alleyway areas of Karachi which are similar to morocco's Tangies alleys but there are no prostitutes in Pakistan.

 

I was born in Europe and grew up here. I feel very offended by these prostitutes symbolising western society as a indication of a sinful society by mentioning tight clothes, hotels, cafes etc. 

 

People in Pakistan and 1st and 2nd generation Pakistanis in the UK use all these outlets but do not commit zina.

 

To close the article with more punch and degradation they say some of these sex workers in Morocco are have strong religious beliefs, god fearing, pray ever day for forgiveness but still commit major sins of prostitution, drugs and alcohol. 

 

Its mind boggling. As a second generation Pakistani in the west i don’t understand the minds of the people in the middle east. 

 

At the end of the day we have to realise this is mass media. They control people's minds and spread propaganda. As i said i don’t usually watch or read the news. I fear being conditioned. My life improved 15 years ago when i stopped watching or reading it. 

 

As a Shia I am drawn towards Sunni women who tell me about the hadith of the blacksmith. As a metaphor from the hadith of the Blacksmith the sisters tell me we smell like the person with whom we keep company, we smell of musk in good company. 

 

I use a halal dating service in the west that represent a niche market of professional Asian Muslims. They told me about this hadith. However they do not have any Shia candidates on their database. It is not surprising because they told me they have rejected many wealthy men because they want to use women as bounties. 

 

I compare the middle east to Pakistan. I can confidently say that Sunni and Shia girls which are brought up in strong Islamic homes do not practice muta or Sunni version of muta which the brother mentioned in the other discussion. This is because they are taught strong Islamic values by their parents. I am not interested in what men do. We have to respect and protect our sisters. 

 

Do not paint all Muslims with the same brush because many of us such as in Pakistan and 1st and 2nd generation Pakistanis abroad are taught strong Islamic values which we adhere to. It is what nations are build on. No wonder why Islam was completed in the Middle East. They need it the most. 

You live in a bubble of you don't think prostitution doesn't exist Pakistan. Go to Lahore Heera Mandi to open your eyes.

All the blame is on the women who prostitute themselves but no blame on the men who solicit and exploit these women, correct?

[Gabenowa]

6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You live in a bubble of you don't think prostitution doesn't exist Pakistan. Go to Lahore Heera Mandi to open your eyes.

All the blame is on the women who prostitute themselves but no blame on the men who solicit and exploit these women, correct?

Women are vulnerable all over this world. Malcolm X (speaking as a member of the "Nation of Islam" ofcourse it was a Black Muslim sect with creeds and theories that deviated from "mainstream Islam" but he said this: the position of the woman is important in Islam because the woman is the first teacher of the child. Prostitution does not happen in Pakistan, it happens all over the world because women are the most vulnerable victims of capitalism and its effects on the state. The state is not corrupt, its capitalism that is corrupt and capitalism corrupts the state, citizens and everything and anyone it touches. but women are more vulnerable because generally especially in socially backward countries (conservative) women are never educated. they are not given support to go to school, they are treated as commodities to be sold off under the pretext of marriage but that is what it is. They are the commodities in financial transactions which makes them vulnerable to sex trafficking and all that. Has nobody seen documentaries on ISIS SEX SLAVES? I could not believe in this day and age of globalisation that human beings are still trafficked for the sexual enjoyment of men. Men fighting a "holy war" at that.

[starlight]

@Murtaza1 Pakistan has everything MashaAllah(yes, that was sarcastic) prostitution, premarital sex,female secretaries sleeping with their boss, school and college girls having boyfriends...you just name it.

[BowTie]

2 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

Show me where prostitution exists in Pakistan. You will not find it because the country is build on strong Islamic principles.

Maybe you are a revert and do not understand how such things effect our communities. Maybe you should visit a strong Muslim Pakistani or similar community. It really is a matter of an attack on ones pride, deep self-respect which we are taught about refraining from major sins such as drinking alcohol and extramarital sexual intercourse.   

I did not know it would be so difficult to understand when even the christians agree that adultery is a major sin but here we are representing Islam, so we should know better and stand up against it instead of saying so what.

 

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/03/21/islamabad-prostitution-in-the-guise-of-beggary/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/lahore-dancing-pakistan-religious-conservatism-underground-prostitution-a8715606.html

https://www.smartertravel.com/red-light-area-heera-mandi-nightlife-lahore/

 

[ShiaMan14]

40 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Murtaza1 Pakistan has everything MashaAllah(yes, that was sarcastic) prostitution, premarital sex,female secretaries sleeping with their boss, school and college girls having boyfriends...you just name it.

Hehehe

@Murtaza1 - in further shocking news, Muslims lie, cheat, steal, kill, rob, murder, rape, pillage and commit all kinds of other sinful acts including (dare I say it) engaging in sex without / outside of marriage.

[Gabenowa]

Did you see that? how applying "Islamic values" means women don’t go to school, how her husband beat her mercyless so she fled for the sake of her life and well being but she has no tools with which she can feed herself and her kids so she SELLS HER BODY to FEED her children. She succumbed to the subconscious instinct to feed her children, to provide a roof over their heads and make sure they do not go to bed at night starving. A woman will sell her body a million times over to feed her children because no woman anywhere on this planet will ever let her child/children sleep on the streets or go to bed hungry. It is the instincts that exist in women since they actually carry a foetus for 9 months and after those 9 months a mother will do anything for her child/children. Now she wont send her kids to school because she fears her children will reject her. Does nobody acknowledge, feel and is traumatised by the reality of that. What is going to happen to her children now? Her daughter will follow her mother into prostitution and her sons will probably end up in a madrassa financed by Saudi Arabia where they will be taught the lunatic ideologies of Wahhabism because they will have nowhere to go as a result of never being educated. A sizeable bulk of the Taliban operating in Pakistan and Afghanistan are recruited from poor households because giving up a son means you have less one mouth to feed. What madness. No country has a future if it can’t educate its own citizens especially when "religious values" predominate at the cost of common sense.

[Murtaza1]

1 hour ago, Gabenowa said:

I am not a racist, I am a lifelong victim of racism but where white people are concerned, I don’t care how "CHRISTIAN" THEY CLAIM TO BE, I SEE IBLIS. I SEE SATAN. don’t lecture me about Islamic principles about race. i don’t see Arabs practicing that and neither do I see Indian Muslims in South Africa practice those very Islamic principles about prejudice you seem so intent on lecturing me about.

Brother I never said you were a racist. I think you are a cool guy with a lot to contribute about your history.

34 minutes ago, Gabenowa said:

Prostitution does not happen in Pakistan

Thank you brother

30 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Murtaza1 Pakistan has everything MashaAllah(yes, that was sarcastic) prostitution, premarital sex,female secretaries sleeping with their boss, school and college girls having boyfriends...you just name it.

Yes Pakistan is a culturally vibrant and colourful country. It shaped my values. I don't see anything wrong with having boyfriends and female secretaries, these are not major sins but prostitution part is highly misreported. Let me explain below.

 

[Murtaza1]

5 hours ago, Gabenowa said:

well I don’t know but a woman would never sell her body willingly except in white countries. 

Brother I found this comment highly disrespectful because it attacks the honour and dignity of the pious sisters in our western Muslim communities. Please refer back to my explanation on our family values. I think you should apologise.

1 hour ago, BowTie said:

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/03/21/islamabad-prostitution-in-the-guise-of-beggary/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/lahore-dancing-pakistan-religious-conservatism-underground-prostitution-a8715606.html

https://www.smartertravel.com/red-light-area-heera-mandi-nightlife-lahore/

 

 

34 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Hehehe

@Murtaza1 - in further shocking news, Muslims lie, cheat, steal, kill, rob, murder, rape, pillage and commit all kinds of other sinful acts including (dare I say it) engaging in sex without / outside of marriage.

Brothers let me explain. We are talking about prostitution.I know places like Heera Mandi in karachi too. I have had some of the best times there. You have to realise that Heera Mandi in Lahore is five hundred years old and fits in more with the Hindu culture. The word Heera means “Beauty” referring to the beauty of the woman. There is nothing wrong with that.

In Heera Mandi women do not practice open prostitution on the streets as they do in Morroco, regardless what the media may tell you. Muta is fine and music and dancing are part of our Indian subcontinent identity, it runs in our blood. Remember the hadith when the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed them to sing and dance at weddings, I always think of that hadith. In our culture dancing is refereed to as “Mujra” which means South Asian style of dancing that requires years of practice. It is an art form.

During the day, Heera Mandi is much like any other Pakistani bazaar and is known for its good food, wide range of Mughal footwear etc. At night, the so called brothels above the shops open. The place is also considered as a symbol for the city.

So please do not believe the hype about Heera Mandi unless you go there yourself as I have. Concentrate more on open prostitution that is practised unashamedly on the streets of places like Morocco and Amsterdam. The media falsely uses the terms 'red light district' to refer to the streets of Lahore, which is false, because it actually refers to the prostitution of Amsterdam.

Jazakalah

Edited January 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Gabenowa]

You never called me racist I know mate. Its just I say things that could be perceived to be racist in reaction to the racism I see from whites, arabs and Indians. Anyway I was not referring to Muslim women in the West. I was referring to the drug-induced prostitution that occurs in the modern "democracies" especially in the West. Even in my country I have witnessed black sisters AND WHITE GIRLS  who will DO ANYTHING FOR A HIT OF whatever it is she is smoking or injecting. Not Muslim women of whatever ethnic origin. Crack cocaine and its effects destroyed black people in their ghettoes during the 80's when it was introduced. White people didnt escape it, as long as it was destroying black people in America it didnt matter, as soon as it found its way into White middle class America they had a "war on drugs" so they could harass African-Americans when it was the CIA that was dumping guns and crack cocaine in the black ghettoes to raise money for their wars in Central America. Its all on record. Anyway I wasnt referring to Muslim women. I have no doubt that Muslim women in Western countries are no different to the Muslim sisters out here in South Africa, black and indian, you wont find them at clubs or drinking holes. and even if you do, they don’t drink openly.

I've read about the vibrant Indian subcontinent culture, which is independent of religion but note that in Pakistan if these sunni extremists would actually take over, none of those open parties displaying that ethnic culture of dancing or kite flying or any of the sort would survive. What the Taliban did to the people of Afghanistan should be causing you nightmares but since I've gleaned you living the good life in the United Kingdom of Colonialism Im sure you have nothing to worry about.

 

[BowTie]

2 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

In Heera Mandi women do not practice open prostitution on the streets as they do in Morroco, regardless what the media may tell you. Muta is fine and music and dancing are part of our Indian subcontinent identity, it runs in our blood. Remember the hadith when the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed them to sing and dance at weddings, I always think of that hadith. In our culture dancing is refereed to as “Mujra” which means South Asian style of dancing that requires years of practice. It is an art form.

During the day, Heera Mandi is much like any other Pakistani bazaar and is known for its good food, wide range of Mughal footwear etc. At night, the so called brothels above the shops open. The place is also considered as a symbol for the city.

So please do not believe the hype about Heera Mandi unless you go there yourself as I have. Concentrate more on open prostitution that is practised unashamedly on the streets of places like Morocco and Amsterdam. The media falsely uses the terms 'red light district' to refer to the streets of Lahore, which is false, because it actually refers to the prostitution of Amsterdam.

Jazakalah

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/03/21/islamabad-prostitution-in-the-guise-of-beggary/

[Murtaza1]

3 hours ago, Gabenowa said:

racism I see from whites, arabs and Indians...I was not referring to Muslim women in the West. I was referring to the drug-induced prostitution that occurs in the modern "democracies"...Not Muslim women of whatever ethnic origin.

What the Taliban did to the people of Afghanistan should be causing you nightmares but since I've gleaned you living the good life in the United Kingdom of Colonialism Im sure you have nothing to worry about.

 

Okay buddy I understand. I hope the sisters understand too.

You are right about the whites. They have caused problems all around the world. Heera Mandi was actually created by the British for the British Soldiers when they ruled in the Indian subcontinent before the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947.

I did not choose to be born in the west but it has its blessings, still many things concern me about the Indian subcontinent.

45 minutes ago, BowTie said:

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/03/21/islamabad-prostitution-in-the-guise-of-beggary/

Brother this image is of UK not Pakistan. I can tell by the number plate Also the woman does not look Pakistani. Believe me I know because I have lived in the UK for over thirty years. This is not a proper news website. Even if it was, they all lie and exaggerate. If this happened in Pakistan these people would have been punished with lashes Iranian style.

Don't try so hard to discredit Pakistan. It is not going to happen.

Jazakalah

Edited January 13, 2019 by Murtaza1

[BowTie]

19 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

Brother this image is of UK not Pakistan. I can tell by the number plate Also the woman does not look Pakistani. Believe me I know because I have lived in the UK for over thirty years. This is not a proper news website. Even if it was, they all lie and exaggerate. If this happened in Pakistan these people would have been punished with lashes Iranian style.

Don't try so hard to discredit Pakistan. It is not going to happen.

Jazakalah

I hate to shatter your image of a perfect Islamic community. But there is NONE. Wake up boy. The link I sent you, isn't abou the image but the article. (which even if there is no article, it doesn't mean there isn't woman who don't sell their bodies for money.) You really believe there is a country with no prostitution?

Since you mentioned Iran, you think there is no prostitution in Iran? 

[ShiaMan14]

3 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

Brother I found this comment highly disrespectful because it attacks the honour and dignity of the pious sisters in our western Muslim communities. Please refer back to my explanation on our family values. I think you should apologise.

 

Brothers let me explain. We are talking about prostitution.I know places like Heera Mandi in karachi too. I have had some of the best times there. You have to realise that Heera Mandi in Lahore is five hundred years old and fits in more with the Hindu culture. The word Heera means “Beauty” referring to the beauty of the woman. There is nothing wrong with that.

In Heera Mandi women do not practice open prostitution on the streets as they do in Morroco, regardless what the media may tell you. Muta is fine and music and dancing are part of our Indian subcontinent identity, it runs in our blood. Remember the hadith when the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed them to sing and dance at weddings, I always think of that hadith. In our culture dancing is refereed to as “Mujra” which means South Asian style of dancing that requires years of practice. It is an art form.

During the day, Heera Mandi is much like any other Pakistani bazaar and is known for its good food, wide range of Mughal footwear etc. At night, the so called brothels above the shops open. The place is also considered as a symbol for the city.

So please do not believe the hype about Heera Mandi unless you go there yourself as I have. Concentrate more on open prostitution that is practised unashamedly on the streets of places like Morocco and Amsterdam. The media falsely uses the terms 'red light district' to refer to the streets of Lahore, which is false, because it actually refers to the prostitution of Amsterdam.

Jazakalah

So your problem is open prostitution? Closed or hidden prostitution is okay?

 

[Gabenowa]

33 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

Okay buddy I understand. I hope the sisters understand too.

You are right about the whites. They have caused problems all around the world. Heera Mandi was actually created by the British for the British Soldiers when they ruled in the Indian subcontinent before the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947.

I did not choose to be born in the west but it has its blessings, still many things concern me about the Indian subcontinent.

Brother this image is of UK not Pakistan. I can tell by the number plate Also the woman does not look Pakistani. Believe me I know because I have lived in the UK for over thirty years. This is not a proper news website. Even if it was, they all lie and exaggerate. If this happened in Pakistan these people would have been punished with lashes Iranian style.

Don't try so hard to discredit Pakistan. It is not going to happen.

Jazakalah

discrediting Pakistan is not the object of the discussion. Yes I think some fellow comrades want to shatter your belief in your perfect Islamic community. It does not exist. BUT WHAT WE ARE AGAINST IS HUMAN SUFFERING ESPECIALLY OF WOMEN BECAUSE WHEN WOMEN SUFFER, CHILDREN SUFFER. I know personally how that feels. And in this world today of advanced education etc etc there is simply no excuse why women cannot be educated my country included All of Africa and Asia and wherever injustice of denying women their right as human beings to better themselves through education. If "Islamic values" stand in the way of that then clearly those are not values are they now?

I saw on a documentary in Iran a 17 year old girl demanding 200 worth of their currency in front of the Mullah for the Mutah. That is prostitution but its alright because it's sort of regulated. because if prostitution is a reality then it should be regulated under law for the protection of women but that does not preclude the need for women to have the right to be educated in third world nations. Bangladesh has the biggest brothel in the world. Young girls are kidnapped and trafficked into these brothels. That documentary broke my heart. Such a waste of human potential.

[Murtaza1]

Nobody has provided any real or reliable evidence here to prove their point and disprove me. Its nothing to do with open or close prostitution. Muta is acceptable but has conditions which makes it more difficult and unlike real prostitution we see in Morocco and Amsterdam. Muta requires a waiting period. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Murtaza1

[confusedandannoyed]

Salam brother.

You are completely oblivious if you don't think that open prostitution happens in Pakistan. In fact, let me tell you something more shocking, go on Youtube and search for a documentary titled "Pakistan's Hidden Shame" there you will find real-life examples of people who have sex with young boys (those who haven't even hit puberty yet) in exchange for drugs or money. Prostitution is very common in Pakistan, and I have even driven by female prostitutes in Karachi. In addition, lots of transgender women (male to female transgenders) are reduced to nothing but begging and prostitution because of our backwards culture which prevents them from actually getting respectable jobs. Thus, these transgendered women have sex with men so they can have money to eat, house, and clothe themselves. I can not believe your holier than thou attitude in claiming that Pakistan is a morally/Islamically chaste country where prostitution isn't a problem. 

What is even MORE worrisome is you stating that you're not interested in what men do, but wish to focus solely on what women do. How about instead we focus on BOTH genders, as it takes two to tango, meaning sex is a two-person job and one of the parties is often-almost a male. Let's focus on that part too instead of just thinking "boys will be boys but we need to teach morality to these girls who are out of control." Classic misogynist. 

[Ralvi]

1 hour ago, confusedandannoyed said:

Salam brother.

You are completely oblivious if you don't think that open prostitution happens in Pakistan. In fact, let me tell you something more shocking, go on Youtube and search for a documentary titled "Pakistan's Hidden Shame" there you will find real-life examples of people who have sex with young boys (those who haven't even hit puberty yet) in exchange for drugs or money. Prostitution is very common in Pakistan, and I have even driven by female prostitutes in Karachi. In addition, lots of transgender women (male to female transgenders) are reduced to nothing but begging and prostitution because of our backwards culture which prevents them from actually getting respectable jobs. Thus, these transgendered women have sex with men so they can have money to eat, house, and clothe themselves. I can not believe your holier than thou attitude in claiming that Pakistan is a morally/Islamically chaste country where prostitution isn't a problem. 

What is even MORE worrisome is you stating that you're not interested in what men do, but wish to focus solely on what women do. How about instead we focus on BOTH genders, as it takes two to tango, meaning sex is a two-person job and one of the parties is often-almost a male. Let's focus on that part too instead of just thinking "boys will be boys but we need to teach morality to these girls who are out of control." Classic misogynist. 

Those poor boys! Iam disgusted 

[Murtaza1]

5 hours ago, confusedandannoyed said:

sex with young boys (those who haven't even hit puberty yet) I have even driven by prostitutes in Karachi. In addition, lots of transgender women (male to female transgenders) are reduced to nothing but begging and prostitution because of our backwards culture which prevents them from actually getting respectable jobs. Thus, these transgendered women have sex with men so they can have money to eat, house, and clothe themselves.

Walaikum a Salam brother,

I don’t care about your relationships with transgenders. I am talking about male female hetrosexual prostitution. It is non of my business if people drive around with transgenders. These days most people at Heera Mandi are transgenders.

Anyway as i say media exaggerates and sensationalises things. Muta is misreported as prostitution and these documentaries you mention are unreliable.

I have relatives from my father's side of the family in high posts in the Pakistan Air Force. I have been fortunate enough to have access to places and information that many others do not.

I may be driven around in tinted flagged VIP cars but i am not unaware of the real suburban Pakistan because thats my mums side of the family.

I am also aware of the issue of male raping women. I have done media work and research. I have interviewed celebrities and been at film scteenings with Pakistani actresses whom are well acquainted with the issue of rape in Pakistan but again the issue I am addresing is not rape or transgender. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Murtaza1

[BowTie]

2 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

Walaikum a Salam brother,

I don’t care about your relationships with transgenders. I am talking about male female hetrosexual prostitution. It is non of my business if people drive around with transgenders. These days most people at Heera Mandi are transgenders.

Anyway as i say media exaggerates and sensationalises things. Muta is misreported as prostitution and these documentaries you mention are unreliable.

I have relatives from my father's side of the family in high posts in the Pakistan Air Force. I have been fortunate enough to have access to places and information that many others do not.

I may be driven around in tinted flagged VIP cars but i am not unaware of the real suburban Pakistan because thats my mums side of the family.

I am also aware of the issue of male raping women. I have done media work and research. I have interviewed celebrities and been at film scteenings with Pakistani actresses whom are well acquainted with the issue of rape in Pakistan but again the issue I am addresing is not rape or transgender. 

[ShiaMan14]

12 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

Nobody has provided any real or reliable evidence here to prove their point and disprove me. Its nothing to do with open or close prostitution. Muta is acceptable but has conditions which makes it more difficult and unlike real prostitution we see in Morocco and Amsterdam. Muta requires a waiting period. 

I think you are little boy talking about a topic you have no idea about.

If mutah is done as a profession ie prostitution then it becomes haram.

 

[confusedandannoyed]

18 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

Walaikum a Salam brother,

I don’t care about your relationships with transgenders. I am talking about male female hetrosexual prostitution. It is non of my business if people drive around with transgenders. These days most people at Heera Mandi are transgenders.

Anyway as i say media exaggerates and sensationalises things. Muta is misreported as prostitution and these documentaries you mention are unreliable.

I have relatives from my father's side of the family in high posts in the Pakistan Air Force. I have been fortunate enough to have access to places and information that many others do not.

I may be driven around in tinted flagged VIP cars but i am not unaware of the real suburban Pakistan because thats my mums side of the family.

I am also aware of the issue of male raping women. I have done media work and research. I have interviewed celebrities and been at film scteenings with Pakistani actresses whom are well acquainted with the issue of rape in Pakistan but again the issue I am addresing is not rape or transgender. 

"Muta is misreported as prostitution and these documentary you mention are unreliable." I mentioned one documentary which explores pedophilia in Pakistan. Please do not tell me that you are characterizing pedophilic sexual relationships between a prepubescent child and an adult man a form of "Mutah" that the media just "mischaracterizes as prostitution", and thus, is unreliable. 

My uncle was in a government position in Pakistan, and thus, I grew up with his police guards around him all the time. The police guards themselves told me stories about how they (and other police officers) would often find out about open prostitution on the streets and would go and order the women to have sex with them or get handcuffed and be taken to jail (since prostitution is illegal). 

Can you also explain to me why you are focused solely on male-female sexual relationships, and why men having sex with transgenders is viewed differently by you, and possibly, as less severe than heterosexual prostitution? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/14/2019 at 3:35 AM, Gabenowa said:

saw on a documentary in Iran a 17 year old girl demanding 200 worth of their currency in front of the Mullah for the Mutah. That is prostitution but its alright because it's sort of regulated.

hi/Salam you & @Murtaza1 see Muta with your glass not from it's true viewpoint , i don't blame you because it's you don't research about it you just watched some biased videos about Muta if you search receiving money (Dowry) for Muta is like as receiving Dowry for marriage but @Murtaza1 sees Pakistan from his random visits to Pakistan that his family doing their best for their comfort so he can't see whole image of his beloved place so he doesn't see dark side of his Country as I don't see my dark side of country that men & women in name of modernization are doing white marriage that is open Zina but before digging into Muta i recommend you to learn about it more before making more comments about it althought practicing Muta is nor obligatory nor mandatory but it's legal & doesn't count as prostitution in any form even in Sunni sources it's not prostitution but anti Shia people & channels made a bad mentality between everybody but in the other hand they do any type of Zina & prostitution by Islamic titles 

 

On 1/13/2019 at 5:31 PM, Murtaza1 said:

As a Shia I am drawn towards Sunni women who tell me about the hadith of the blacksmith. As a metaphor from the hadith of the Blacksmith the sisters tell me we smell like the person with whom we keep company, we smell of musk in good company. 

 

I use a halal dating service in the west that represent a niche market of professional Asian Muslims. They told me about this hadith. However they do not have any Shia candidates on their database. It is not surprising because they told me they have rejected many wealthy men because they want to use women as bounties. 

it has no connection to Shia Islam & your work is a great sin in name of Halal dating 

 

On 1/13/2019 at 9:34 PM, Gabenowa said:

That is why I love Sufism, they acknowledge all this material reality and the effects it has on human beings and completely disengage themselves from the modern world to live simple pious lives.

Sufism is just an illusion in Shia hadith they are woser than Khawarij in belief but they just don't rise a sword to fight other Muslims that keeps them except that they must fight Shias at first because they stick themselves like as leeches to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) & misrepresent Imam Ali (عليه السلام) simple life style that was for sake of poor people to their parasite life style  & only exposing their false belief & rituals highly recommended by all Shia Imams 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Muta temporary marriage is not Zina according to the Sunni schools of thougt

Is Muy’ah (temporary marriage) a part of Islam | BISKIT 

Origin and practice of Muta (temporary marriage) by Shias -Sayed Ammar Nakhshawani 

How to perform a Muta (temporary marriage ) contract

 

[Murtaza1]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 Muta is nor obligatory nor mandatory but it's legal & doesn't count as prostitution in any form even in Sunni sources it's not prostitution but anti Shia people & channels made a bad mentality between everybody but in the other hand they do any type of Zina & prostitution by Islamic titles 

It has no connection to Shia Islam & your work is a great sin in name of Halal dating 

Brother i never said that muta was wrong. I am saying people in Pakistan do muta and as you say anti Shia people use that as an excuse to bring Shia down. Nobody here has any real proof of it not being muta in Pakistan but i have done media work and research and i have relatives in Pakistan in high posts which have given me access to places etc as i explained above in my long post. 

Also i was not reffering to the hadith of the blacksmith to muta directly. They only quoted it very generally to me. It was not related to muta at all. People do abuse muta as sone peoples comments on Shiamatch reflect which are highly desrespectul to woman and out if context.

I was not saying that marrying or seeking Sunni women is a slap on the face of any Shia or muta marriage. Its just that there is more potential to find a more suitable marriage partner for me because personality wise i seek some rare qualities and their database of Sunni female candidates is huge and increases my chance. This increases my chance to find my most compatible partner.

However I still consider Shia girls on other platfiem too. As i did yesterday with a stunning wajeebad Shia Pakistani girls eldest sister in a long phone conversation yesterday. 

Brother I hope i cleared up the misunderstandings. Also regarding the Pakistan prostitution issue i understand what you are saying and i respect that as your opinion. i suggest just take my alternative opinion as my own personal opinion too. 

Jazakalah 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Murtaza1]

11 hours ago, confusedandannoyed said:

Can you also explain to me why you are focused solely on male-female sexual relationships, and why men having sex with transgenders is viewed differently by you, and possibly, as less severe than heterosexual prostitution? 

This is because the Newsweek article does not mention transexual but only heterosexual relationships in Moroco. So in order to keep up with this discussion i am only comparing and concentrating on heterosexual relationships in Pakistan. Sorry but you hearing things from poluce officers in Pakistan is just hearsay without any substantial evidence. It doesn't prove anything. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Murtaza1

[Zulfiqar1472]

On 1/13/2019 at 3:27 PM, BowTie said:

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. Each country in the world has prostitutes. Its unfortunate, but whats so shocking about that?

Will you be part of that profession? If yes then there is no issue for you.