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Is circumcision required for male reverts?

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1 hour ago, Irfani313 said:

The question I’ve always wondered about the male reverts is regarding circumcision? Do you have to have it or is it optional according to the Shi’a fiqh? 

Most Americans over a certain age are circumcised anyway. It used to be a default hospital procedure at birth unless the parents requested to avoid it. 

It isn't required for reverts, but it is recommended and he must have it done before undertaking hajj. 

 

Note: this discussion was split from this topic here:

 

Edited by notme

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25 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

Salam:

Even if it’s a very Christian name, as long as it’s not something related to paganism, it should be fine. For the last name, you get it from your father and no change in religion could change it.

I believe you are fine.

The question I’ve always wondered about the male reverts is regarding circumcision? Do you have to have it or is it optional according to the Shi’a fiqh? 

السَّلآمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ الله وبَرَكآتُه 

Respected brother

Hope you are fine إِنْ شَاء َ اللَّه 

It is mandatory according to Shi'i fiqh and it is mandatory even as Sunni's fiqh as far as I know.

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1 minute ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

It is mandatory according to Shi'i fiqh

I don't think this is true, but I'll check. 

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3 minutes ago, notme said:

Most Americans over a certain age are circumcised anyway. It used to be a default hospital procedure at birth unless the parents requested to avoid it. 

It isn't required for reverts, but it is recommended and he must have it done before undertaking hajj. 

It is required as soon as a non Muslim converts to Muslim.

That part of flesh above the men genital is considered Najis in Islam hence his every action is invalidated untill it has not been cut off. His prayers, fasting etc etc....they are all invalidated as per shariah.

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1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

It is required as soon as a non Muslim converts to Muslim.

That part of flesh above the men genital is considered Najis in Islam hence his every action is invalidated untill it has not been cut off. His prayers, fasting etc etc....they are all invalidated as per shariah.

This is not listed among inherently najis things. I believe it is not true, but rulings may vary from different scholars. I can't find anything specific in the books that I have. I think the man only has to take extra steps to ensure cleanliness and his prayers, fasts, and deeds will be valid. I believe I've read that he only must be circumcised to perform hajj, though it is recommended for all men. 

Edited by notme

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1 minute ago, notme said:

This is not listed among inherently najis things. I believe it is not true, but rulings may vary from different scholars. I can't find anything specific in the books that I have. I think the man only has to take extra steps to ensure cleanliness and his prayers, fasts, and deeds will be valid. I believe I've read that he only must be circumcised to perform hajj, though it is recommended for all men. 

Why for Hajj it is crucial if all the other arkaans of deen can be fulfilled with it?

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Below are two narrations from shii school.

1. Imam Ali(asws) saying it is a 'MUST'.

"If a man becomes Muslim, he must submit to circumcision even if he is 80 years old."

Al-Kalini, Abu-Ja'afar Muhammad Ibn-Yaqub. Al-furu'min al-kafi. Vol. 6 Tehran: Dar al-kutub al-islamiyyah. 1981:35

2. Imam Jaffar As Sadiq(asws)

"Circumcise your sons when they are seven days old as it is cleaner (athar) and the flesh grows faster and because the earth hates the urine of the uncircumcised."

Al-Kalini, Abu-Ja'afar Muhammad Ibn-Yaqub. Al-furu'min al-kafi. Vol. 6 Tehran: Dar al-kutub al-islamiyyah. 1981:34

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3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Below are two narrations from shii school.

1. Imam Ali(asws) saying it is a 'MUST'.

"If a man becomes Muslim, he must submit to circumcision even if he is 80 years old."

Al-Kalini, Abu-Ja'afar Muhammad Ibn-Yaqub. Al-furu'min al-kafi. Vol. 6 Tehran: Dar al-kutub al-islamiyyah. 1981:35

2. Imam Jaffar As Sadiq(asws)

"Circumcise your sons when they are seven days old as it is cleaner (athar) and the flesh grows faster and because the earth hates the urine of the uncircumcised."

Al-Kalini, Abu-Ja'afar Muhammad Ibn-Yaqub. Al-furu'min al-kafi. Vol. 6 Tehran: Dar al-kutub al-islamiyyah. 1981:34

You cant just take two statements and make general conclusions. That requires an expert in arabic, grammar, rajal, mantiq, quran etc etc etc. 

That is why we have experts called scholars who advise us on the laws.

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8 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

But are the prayers, fasts, and good deeds of a man who is not circumcised accepted? For example if a man reverts to Islam, are all his prayers from the time of his reversion until he has become circumcised invalid? 

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1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

You cant just take two statements and make general conclusions. That requires an expert in arabic, grammar, rajal, mantiq, quran etc etc etc. 

That is why we have experts called scholars who advise us on the laws.

Who told you that with ONLY these two statements I made this conclusion? That is what was available as of that time for me to show to that user of shiachat.

Why do you always assume things from your own on every other topic and start passing your judgements?

How old are you though?

Are you a new muslim or shia that you do not know the obvious methods of how a law works in Islam?

Where have you grown up that you have not been informed about the wajibat and mustahabat of religion that you are trying to override this practice or are you just trying to act over-smart?

It is common sense that we don't make laws from two narrations and I don't think you have that common sense.

Look at the comment above my comment.

And listen you especially don't talk about Laws and Quran when you lack manners to even speak with your fellow beings, I know you are the one who said 'go waster someone's else time' on other thread to me and I personally avoid talking with those who lack manners therefore please post things in general next time without tagging me or directly trying to communicate with me.

First you need advises by scholars on how to speak with 'Akhlaq' then talk about other things here with me.

As straight as this. Full stop.

Edited by Asghar Ali Karbalai

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24 minutes ago, notme said:

But are the prayers, fasts, and good deeds of a man who is not circumcised accepted? For example if a man reverts to Islam, are all his prayers from the time of his reversion until he has become circumcised invalid? 

Yes ,all of them will be accepted but for acceptance of Hajj ,the man  must circumcised but rest of his deeds will be accepted but it an obligatory act that must done for men .

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53 minutes ago, notme said:

But are the prayers, fasts, and good deeds of a man who is not circumcised accepted? For example if a man reverts to Islam, are all his prayers from the time of his reversion until he has become circumcised invalid? 

It seems so, with the exception of tawaf in Hajj. You need to be circumcised so your tawaf is valid.

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Found something while searching SC: 

 

Also this: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/in-one-simple-tool-hope-for-h-i-v-prevention/

Apparently circumcision can be done by DIY by adults, also that not only it makes your Tawaf valid, it also prevents HIV for those who don’t follow Islamic moralities. 

 

Edited by AMR5

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Allah created us perfectly, circumcision is a Pagan perversion from Shaitan. May I burn in hell if I buy into the idea that Allah made a mistake by giving me a foreskin, I vehemently deny circumcision wholeheartedly. 

 

I know it's an offensive thing to say (to those who are religiously sensitive to affirmative opposition to it) but I stand by it, I believe circumcision in the Tanakh is one of the aspects that were changed since the prophethood of Moses pbuh (one of the things written into the Torah later). It's a tremendous lie of Shaitan to deceive the masses into believing that Allah made a mistake by giving males a foreskin, to assert a necessity to mutilate genitals because Allah "did it wrong", which inevitably leads down the road of Kufr if you take it with any more than a grain of salt. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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7 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

It is required as soon as a non Muslim converts to Muslim.

That part of flesh above the men genital is considered Najis in Islam hence his every action is invalidated untill it has not been cut off. His prayers, fasting etc etc....they are all invalidated as per shariah.

It is not najis, and his prayers and fasts are valid. The only thing that becomes invalidated is his hajj.

It is not wajib to circumcise yourself until you’re baligh. It is not wajib for the parents to circumcise their child, if they want they can wait for him to become baligh so that he can go himself and get circumcised as soon as possible.

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36 minutes ago, HakimPtsid said:

Allah created us perfectly, circumcision is a Pagan perversion from Shaitan. May I burn in hell if I buy into the idea that Allah made a mistake by giving me a foreskin, I vehemently deny circumcision wholeheartedly. 

 

I know it's an offensive thing to say (to those who are religiously sensitive to affirmative opposition to it) but I stand by it, I believe circumcision in the Tanakh is one of the aspects that were changed since the prophethood of Moses pbuh (one of the things written into the Torah later). It's a tremendous lie of Shaitan to deceive the masses into believing that Allah made a mistake by giving males a foreskin, to assert a necessity to mutilate genitals because Allah "did it wrong", which inevitably leads down the road of Kufr if you take it with any more than a grain of salt. 

Well, we all need to cut our hair, nails etc. It doesn't mean that God was wrong when he created us in need of removing them. If we didn't remove them it would be unhygienic and harm us. 

Edited by Carlzone

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9 hours ago, notme said:

Most Americans over a certain age are circumcised anyway. It used to be a default hospital procedure at birth unless the parents requested to avoid it. 

It isn't required for reverts, but it is recommended and he must have it done before undertaking hajj. 

 

Note: this discussion was split from this topic here:

 

do i need a bris or is a medical circumcision god enough for hajj?

 

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10 minutes ago, yusuf44a said:

do i need a bris or is a medical circumcision god enough for hajj?

 

Just regular medical procedure, there is no ritual for Muslims. 

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5 hours ago, Carlzone said:

Well, we all need to cut our hair, nails etc. It doesn't mean that God was wrong when he created us in need of removing them. If we didn't remove them it would be unhygienic and harm us. 

Cutting hair or nails is by far a false equivalence. A closer equivalence would be cutting off the tip of your nose, ear or even your eyelids. Its completely an evil thing to force on someone, as I stated before and is an act of Shaitan, an insult to Allah.

Also, hair and nails grow back, like earwax etc a foreskin doesn't.

Edited by HakimPtsid

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8 hours ago, Hassan- said:

It is not najis, and his prayers and fasts are valid. The only thing that becomes invalidated is his hajj.

It is not wajib to circumcise yourself until you’re baligh. It is not wajib for the parents to circumcise their child, if they want they can wait for him to become baligh so that he can go himself and get circumcised as soon as possible.

And the prayers and fasts become obligatory ONLY after bulugh(puberty) so it becomes wajib after bulugh only and is a must for prayers.

As for my comment it was for a male who is converting from non-muslim to muslim so obviously he would be a baligh only while converting his religion.

And for the above highlighted part, Please provide your sources and references.

I gave references of it being 'must' from Al Kafi and @Sumerian gave reference of Mr. Sistani.

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3 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

Cutting hair or nails is by far a false equivalence. A closer equivalence would be cutting off the tip of your nose, ear or even your eyelids. Its completely an evil thing to force on someone, as I stated before and is an act of Shaitan, an insult to Allah.

Also, hair and nails grow back, like earwax etc a foreskin doesn't.

إن الله عز وجل بعث خليله بالحنيفية و أمره بأخذ الشارب و قص الاظفار و نتف الابط و حلق العانة و الختان 

Imam Ali (as) said from Prophet (pbu):The Lord called Abraham (peace be upon him) in a good manner. He ordered shortening the mustache and nails and removing the underarm hair and shaving the intimate parts(genitals) upper hair and circumcision.

وسائل الشيعه ،ج 15 ،ص 163،باب 52 از ابواب احكام اولاد.

Wasail'al Shia ,v15 , p163 ,chapter 52 from chapter Ahkan Ulad (ruling of children)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ﴿١٢٣﴾

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists. (123)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/16:123

قُلْ صَدَقَ اللَّـهُ ۗ فَاتَّبِعُوا مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ﴿٩٥﴾

Say: Allah has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not one of the polytheists. (95)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/3:95

http://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/37883

1 hour ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

And for the above highlighted part, Please provide your sources and references.

all of Maraja are saying that evey religious deed except Tawaf for Haj is accepted 

Grand Ayatollah sistani :

شرط صحت طواف در مردان ختنه کردن است(مناسک محشى : ص  212

requisitionfor acceptance of Tawaf by men is circumation  (Manasek Mahshi : p212)

http://eporsesh.com/content/چرا-خداوند-انسان-را-ختنه-دار-نیافریده-است؟ 

http://hadana.ir/ختنه-كردن-در-اسلام/

 

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22 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Who told you that with ONLY these two statements I made this conclusion? That is what was available as of that time for me to show to that user of shiachat.

You did, when you provided minimal evidence and then reached a conclusion.

 

22 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Why do you always assume things from your own on every other topic and start passing your judgements?

 How old are you though?

Are you a new muslim or shia that you do not know the obvious methods of how a law works in Islam?

Where have you grown up that you have not been informed about the wajibat and mustahabat of religion that you are trying to override this practice or are you just trying to act over-smart?

I think your hallow approach to conversion has lead you to false conclusions. My point, which is valid, is that we as lay people can not simply search through a website of hadith or quran and then start guessing at the laws. That is my point, despite my point being short and clear, it seems to have eluded you.

22 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

first you need advises by scholars on how to speak with 'Akhlaq' then talk about other things here with me.

As straight as this. Full stop.

I didnt say anything negative about you, not sure why you are so triggered. I simply made a point that referencing a few hadith is not adequate. 

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