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Is circumcision required for male reverts?

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12 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

And the prayers and fasts become obligatory ONLY after bulugh(puberty) so it becomes wajib after bulugh only and is a must for prayers.

As for my comment it was for a male who is converting from non-muslim to muslim so obviously he would be a baligh only while converting his religion.

And for the above highlighted part, Please provide your sources and references.

I gave references of it being 'must' from Al Kafi and @Sumerian gave reference of Mr. Sistani.

You said that part of the flesh is najis, and a convert’s prayers/fasts are invalid per shari’a until they cut it off. This is false, please provide your proof. Here’s my proof:

 

 

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On 1/9/2019 at 6:51 PM, HakimPtsid said:

Allah created us perfectly, circumcision is a Pagan perversion from Shaitan. May I burn in hell if I buy into the idea that Allah made a mistake by giving me a foreskin, I vehemently deny circumcision wholeheartedly. 

 

I know it's an offensive thing to say (to those who are religiously sensitive to affirmative opposition to it) but I stand by it, I believe circumcision in the Tanakh is one of the aspects that were changed since the prophethood of Moses pbuh (one of the things written into the Torah later). It's a tremendous lie of Shaitan to deceive the masses into believing that Allah made a mistake by giving males a foreskin, to assert a necessity to mutilate genitals because Allah "did it wrong", which inevitably leads down the road of Kufr if you take it with any more than a grain of salt. 

So apparently we all ought to run around with our dried out placentas too? 

Human stagnation is paganism, human growth in idoelogies, languages, and knowledges is Islam. 

Circumcison is one of those things which tell of the progress of humans, had humans never invented tools to rid the extra skin off, Allah swt won’t had ordered us to do so.

Another example is the first ayat of ‘teaching humans by Pen’, Allah swt orders by the tools available to men which means men have progressed through the knowledge and intellect given by God. 

Paganism on the other hand is all about stangantion and remaining in the state of lack of intellect, knowledge, modesty, & selflessness, in which all humans are born into and learn these traits as they grow older and become better humans. 

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11 hours ago, Hassan- said:

You said that part of the flesh is najis, and a convert’s prayers/fasts are invalid per shari’a until they cut it off. This is false, please provide your proof. Here’s my proof:

 

 

Check my previous comment giving two narrations from 'Al Kafi' mentioning it. About it being najis I have given a narration in my previous post that it makes you athar once you cut it.

Also brother, Look we pray when we reach the age of puberty right? I mean that is when we are baligh and that is when even you said and we all know that is when it becomes mandatory to do khatna so these two things are inter-linked. Prayers and khatna. You cannot pray while your khatna is not done. Just go through my sentence again if you are not understanding my point. 

And also refer to below narrations and link.

Even after this if you disagree then I do not think that this debate/concern will take us any further.

Below are the narrations with link and above is my statement to make you understand how all these things are interlinked to each other making it obligatory to circumcise before Salah and other deeds.

Mr Sistani's reference has already been quoted in this thread.

I am quoting Mr. Khoei's reference too as well for you.

From Biharul Anwaar, from al Kafi (already in thread by me) and from Wasail Al Shiah.

The Messenger of Allah (blessings of Allah be upon him and his family) has said, “Walimah is only in five occasions: in the ‘Urs, Khurs, ‘Idhar, Wikar and the Rikaz – ‘Urs is when a person gets married; and Khurs is when a child is born; and ‘Idhar is on the circumcision of a baby boy; and Wikar is when a person purchases a house; and Rikaz is when a person returns from Hajj.”


Biharul Anwar, Volume 96, Page 384


https://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadith-on-hajj-mahmud-mahdipur/40-walimah-feeding-others-after-returning-hajj


The Holy Prophet says:
“The new born must be circumcised on the seventh day of its birth that he gets healthy growth and upbringing."
Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 175

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq says:
“Do the circumcision of your child on the seventh day of his birth. This is best for him. It is also beneficial for his proper growth and upbringing. Certainly, the earth abhors the urine of the person who has not been circumcised"
Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 171


https://www.al-islam.org/principles-upbringing-children-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-25-health-and-hygiene

2834. On the basis of obligatory precaution the guardian should get his child circumcised before he attains puberty, and if he does not get him circumcised it becomes obligatory on the child himself when he reaches the age of puberty.

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/miscellaneous-problems

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45 minutes ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

You cannot pray while your khatna is not done

It’s not true ,even when we drink wine or other intoxicant we must continue our daily prayers althought our prayers will not accepted for 40 days also doing Khatna is not one of signs of puberty but you mistaken it and Quran says when you can’t find water for Ghusl when you are Junub you can do tayamum with dust if you fear that will lose the prayer  on it’s time in order to can perform your Namaz ,not doing Khatna  is a sin but it doesn’t prevent person from praying but it’s not recommend, Allah will accept your Namaz but it’s like as you go visit your beloved one but your mouth smells bad he will accept you but won’t pay attention enough to you.

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3 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Check my previous comment giving two narrations from 'Al Kafi' mentioning it.

and herein lies the problem.

Remember when I said, its not for lay people to pick a few hadith and make some conclusions, and then you got all upset? 

These two hadith, have they reached us in a reliable way or not? are they in context or not, abrogated or not, at a time of taqiyah or not, is there a more fundamental principle which will override this ruling for this context or not? 

Before you even answer, consider this, in order to answer the points you would need either be an expert or consult an expert, there is no third option. Hence why, when others have put forward there points, they do so with an expert scholarly opinion eg  Ayatollah X says in book xyz that this is halal etc. 

If I just said, theres a narration in kafi which says it, its meaningless. Anyone who has spent more than a casual time looking through out books knows that we have many hadiths that appear to contradict or give different conclusions, Books have been written on this aspect alone. Thats why an expert, a scholar, needs to look at the hadith and see if it can be used for each situation.

Please dont take this as an attack etc,  this is just a conversation, which is robust so we can try and find out the reality of what is going on. I might be wrong and you may have a better opinion and if so, please share it. 

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51 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

and herein lies the problem.

Remember when I said, its not for lay people to pick a few hadith and make some conclusions, and then you got all upset? 

These two hadith, have they reached us in a reliable way or not? are they in context or not, abrogated or not, at a time of taqiyah or not, is there a more fundamental principle which will override this ruling for this context or not? 

Before you even answer, consider this, in order to answer the points you would need either be an expert or consult an expert, there is no third option. Hence why, when others have put forward there points, they do so with an expert scholarly opinion eg  Ayatollah X says in book xyz that this is halal etc. 

If I just said, theres a narration in kafi which says it, its meaningless. Anyone who has spent more than a casual time looking through out books knows that we have many hadiths that appear to contradict or give different conclusions, Books have been written on this aspect alone. Thats why an expert, a scholar, needs to look at the hadith and see if it can be used for each situation.

Please dont take this as an attack etc,  this is just a conversation, which is robust so we can try and find out the reality of what is going on. I might be wrong and you may have a better opinion and if so, please share it. 

I did not respond to your last post because I had already stated this to you that I do not wish to talk to you because you lack manners.

So kindly avoid replying on my comments henceforth and raise your contradictions on a comment by your ownself.

I do not wish to communicate with you based on my previous experience with you. 

I will not reply to your concerns so please.

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It’s not true ,even when we drink wine or other intoxicant we must continue our daily prayers althought our prayers will not accepted for 40 days also doing Khatna is not one of signs of puberty but you mistaken it and Quran says when you can’t find water for Ghusl when you are Junub you can do tayamum with dust if you fear that will lose the prayer  on it’s time in order to can perform your Namaz ,not doing Khatna  is a sin but it doesn’t prevent person from praying but it’s not recommend, Allah will accept your Namaz but it’s like as you go visit your beloved one but your mouth smells bad he will accept you but won’t pay attention enough to you.

Okay brother to you your beliefs and to me mine.

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So in summary, it is wajib, but there is no required timeline. A male revert must only be sure to have the procedure before his hajj can be accepted and must take extra measures to ensure cleanliness. Is that correct? 

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13 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

Check my previous comment giving two narrations from 'Al Kafi' mentioning it. About it being najis I have given a narration in my previous post that it makes you athar once you cut it.

Also brother, Look we pray when we reach the age of puberty right? I mean that is when we are baligh and that is when even you said and we all know that is when it becomes mandatory to do khatna so these two things are inter-linked. Prayers and khatna. You cannot pray while your khatna is not done. Just go through my sentence again if you are not understanding my point. 

And also refer to below narrations and link.

Even after this if you disagree then I do not think that this debate/concern will take us any further.

Below are the narrations with link and above is my statement to make you understand how all these things are interlinked to each other making it obligatory to circumcise before Salah and other deeds.

Mr Sistani's reference has already been quoted in this thread.

I am quoting Mr. Khoei's reference too as well for you.

From Biharul Anwaar, from al Kafi (already in thread by me) and from Wasail Al Shiah.

The Messenger of Allah (blessings of Allah be upon him and his family) has said, “Walimah is only in five occasions: in the ‘Urs, Khurs, ‘Idhar, Wikar and the Rikaz – ‘Urs is when a person gets married; and Khurs is when a child is born; and ‘Idhar is on the circumcision of a baby boy; and Wikar is when a person purchases a house; and Rikaz is when a person returns from Hajj.”


Biharul Anwar, Volume 96, Page 384


https://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadith-on-hajj-mahmud-mahdipur/40-walimah-feeding-others-after-returning-hajj


The Holy Prophet says:
“The new born must be circumcised on the seventh day of its birth that he gets healthy growth and upbringing."
Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 175

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq says:
“Do the circumcision of your child on the seventh day of his birth. This is best for him. It is also beneficial for his proper growth and upbringing. Certainly, the earth abhors the urine of the person who has not been circumcised"
Wasail al-shiah, v15, p. 171


https://www.al-islam.org/principles-upbringing-children-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-25-health-and-hygiene

2834. On the basis of obligatory precaution the guardian should get his child circumcised before he attains puberty, and if he does not get him circumcised it becomes obligatory on the child himself when he reaches the age of puberty.

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/miscellaneous-problems

The ahadith you just presented have nothing to do with what we are talking about, they don’t prove that the extra skin is najis, or that one cannot pray while he hasn’t cut it yet. Did you even listen to the video I showed you? Sayed Shubbar clearly said (I’m assuming you understand Arabic) that one does not stop his ‘ibadat (acts of worship) even if it’s not cut. Those aren’t his opinions but the opinions of the marjas, especially Sayed Sistani and Sayed al khoei.

Also why are you proving fiqh matters with ahadith? As @iraqi_shia said it’s not your job to do that. A fatwa from a marja’ is more evidence than a hadith, so if you want to prove your claims, please show me fatwas from a known marja’.

 

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9 hours ago, Asghar Ali Karbalai said:

I did not respond to your last post because I had already stated this to you that I do not wish to talk to you because you lack manners.

So kindly avoid replying on my comments henceforth and raise your contradictions on a comment by your ownself.

I do not wish to communicate with you based on my previous experience with you. 

I will not reply to your concerns so please.

No I don’t think I will do that actually.

I will continue to make my comments and you can just ignore them if you want. However, this is a forum and I will reply and highlight anything I wish.

Im not sure why you are so upset, I hope you feel better soon.

 

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:51 PM, Irfani313 said:

So apparently we all ought to run around with our dried out placentas too? 

Human stagnation is paganism, human growth in idoelogies, languages, and knowledges is Islam. 

Circumcison is one of those things which tell of the progress of humans, had humans never invented tools to rid the extra skin off, Allah swt won’t had ordered us to do so.

Another example is the first ayat of ‘teaching humans by Pen’, Allah swt orders by the tools available to men which means men have progressed through the knowledge and intellect given by God. 

Paganism on the other hand is all about stangantion and remaining in the state of lack of intellect, knowledge, modesty, & selflessness, in which all humans are born into and learn these traits as they grow older and become better humans. 

Circumcision, like Castration is one of the evil Satanic things that are an insult to intellect, knowledge, modesty and selflessness. They are a direct violation of Allah's creation, period. There is no 'extra skin', the penis is born the way it is made. Circumcision is satanic pagan beliefs used to pervert Allah's religion, it's pure evil.

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10 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

Circumcision, like Castration is one of the evil Satanic things that are an insult to intellect, knowledge, modesty and selflessness. They are a direct violation of Allah's creation, period. There is no 'extra skin', the penis is born the way it is made. Circumcision is satanic pagan beliefs used to pervert Allah's religion, it's pure evil.

This is not an Islamic viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions can not be presented as God's law. That would be blasphemy.

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When you revert, it becomes an obligation, though urgency is relative. Non-hajis have the obligation to perform hajj, and it is something we plan to do without any doubt (so even of we die, we must have had that genuine intention and put efforts and means to achieve it). Same goes with circumcision, being a prerequisite for hajj itself.

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6 hours ago, notme said:

This is not an Islamic viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions can not be presented as God's law. That would be blasphemy.

Circumcision itself is among the few early medical procedures that is nowaday linked to religions but was purely medical back in the day it was put into practice. So I really don't see where the paganism is.

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12 hours ago, notme said:

This is not an Islamic viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions can not be presented as God's law. That would be blasphemy.

Then I shall burn in hellfire for not mutilating my genitals as a man's opinion has told me to do - in your opinion. Allah saw is above this barbaric perverted superstition and you know it, it has absolutely no purpose other than to mislead people and to wreck their genitals for life. 

 

Quote

"Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" - 3:61

 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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11 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

mislead people and to wreck their genitals for life. 

That can't possibly be right, given the global size and increase in the Muslim population. If anything surely it must contribute to improved prowess and virility.

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