Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam,

What is the Shia definition of Shirk?

I believe Shirk is giving any thing other than Allah the attributes which are unique to Allah.  I understand Shirk to be rationally impossible. However, some have defined Shirk as worshipping other than Allah. What is worship? Well, according to the earliest linguists, worship is defined as extreme humility and submissiveness.

Although, i do not see how extreme humility and submissiveness to other than Allah can be Shirk, as it is not rationally impossible for one to have extreme humility to other than Allah.

So how do we define Shirk and how do we define worship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

What is the Shia definition of Shirk?

You will find comprehensive information about its definition & types at the following link:

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/first-greater-sin-shirk

1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I understand Shirk to be rationally impossible.

How it is rationally impossible?

إِنَّ الشِّرْكَ لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌ 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

How it is rationally impossible?

إِنَّ الشِّرْكَ لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌ 

 

As Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى explains:

“Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined.”  (21:22)

There are many reasons why a multiplicity of Gods is rationally impossible such as the argument of coneceptual differentiation and others

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Multiplicity of gods is only incoherent if those gods are ontologically equal with the one uncaused cause who is the necessary being. If those gods are lesser deities then it is coherent. I don't see how shirk is rationally impossible. There is a hadith that says the servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, slaughters for other than Allah, or does dua to other than Allah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

As Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى explains:

“Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined.”  (21:22)

There are many reasons why a multiplicity of Gods is rationally impossible such as the argument of coneceptual differentiation and others

I think this is where you need to look at the definition of Shirk. 

If you understand shirk is "rationally impossible", that would mean that the punishment against Shirk is "irrational". And Allah's announcement that He would never forgive shirk become irrational too.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Multiplicity of gods is only incoherent if those gods are ontologically equal with the one uncaused cause who is the necessary being. If those gods are lesser deities then it is coherent. I don't see how shirk is rationally impossible. There is a hadith that says the servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, slaughters for other than Allah, or does dua to other than Allah. 

What do you mean by lesser deities? Do these lesser deities have the attributes of Allah? Are they independent of Allah? As believing in a deity that is limited but also independent of Allah is also a rational impossibility.

You would have to define what you mean by praying, slaughtering and doing dua to other than Allah. As in if you do any of these things, believing that the one you are doing these things for is independent of Allah, then this is a rational impossibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

I think this is where you need to look at the definition of Shirk. 

If you understand shirk is "rationally impossible", that would mean that the punishment against Shirk is "irrational". And Allah's announcement that He would never forgive shirk become irrational too.  

So do you think that believing in mutiple equal Gods is possible then?

Of course it isn’t. 

How does a belief being rationally impossible have anything to do with the punishment for that belief being rationally impossible? I don’t see the link. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

So do you think that believing in mutiple equal Gods is possible then?

Yes it is possible. One can "believe" in multiple gods. That's what humanity is doing from so long. We humans have the tendency to make anything and anyone "ilah". 
 

7 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

How does a belief being rationally impossible have anything to do with the punishment for that belief being rationally impossible? I don’t see the link. 


The punishment must be for a thing which is "rationally possible", otherwise it would become irrational itself. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

We humans have the tendency to make anything and anyone "ilah". 
 

And when I say this, it means we have the tendency to misplace things i.e., we can do Zulm of any sort. Placing someone at the level of "Al-Ilah" or associating someone with Allah (s.w.t) from our side is shirk, injustice and hence called zulmin azeem. 

Most of us makes our "hawa-e-nafs" ilah and start worshiping it. 

أَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ 
25:43

أَفَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ
45:23

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Yes it is possible. One can "believe" in multiple gods. That's what humanity is doing from so long. We humans have the tendency to make anything and anyone "ilah". 
 


The punishment must be for a thing which is "rationally possible", otherwise it would become irrational itself. 


 

I know, people can believe in rational impossibilities if they want. 

But that is not what I meant. 

What I meant was the belief itself. Do you think that the belief of their being multiple possible Gods is possible?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I know, people can believe in rational impossibilities if they want. 

But that is not what I meant. 

What I meant was the belief itself. Do you think that the belief of their being multiple possible Gods is possible?

 There cannot be multiple gods, that's what intellect & logic dictates.

But "Shirk" is not limited to any belief of multiple gods. One can commit shirk by obeying someone other than Allah (s.w.t). One can commit shirk by directing his trust or confidence towards someone or something that does not deserve it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

What do you mean by lesser deities? Do these lesser deities have the attributes of Allah? Are they independent of Allah? As believing in a deity that is limited but also independent of Allah is also a rational impossibility.

You would have to define what you mean by praying, slaughtering and doing dua to other than Allah. As in if you do any of these things, believing that the one you are doing these things for is independent of Allah, then this is a rational impossibility.

Many of the attributes of God are not unique to God (e.g. creatures can be merciful and God is merciful). If you mean the essential attributes of God then no they can't if those attributes are absolutely unique to Him (e.g. having no beginning, omniscience, omnipotence). Nothing that exists is independent of Allah, nothing can happen expect by His will. I don't know exactly what you mean by independent. Defining deity or gods is a bit tricky. Its rationally possible for God to create a lesser god that He would order people to worship, this is basically what early logos theologians believed about Jesus. This lesser god can still be dependent on God. 

To pray to anyone besides Allah is shirk regardless of whether one believes the thing they are praying to is independent of Allah, I dont know what needs to be explained there. The mushrikun of quraish ultimately believed those who they worshiped besides Allah were dependent on Allah. They said they worshiped them only to get closer to Allah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- To believe that a creation has a power which was attained through other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or that it attained it by itself is shirk.

- To claim any of the unique attributes of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى are applicable to other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is also shirk. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Many of the attributes of God are not unique to God (e.g. creatures can be merciful and God is merciful). If you mean the essential attributes of God then no they can't if those attributes are absolutely unique to Him (e.g. having no beginning, omniscience, omnipotence). Nothing that exists is independent of Allah, nothing can happen expect by His will. I don't know exactly what you mean by independent. Defining deity or gods is a bit tricky. Its rationally possible for God to create a lesser god that He would order people to worship, this is basically what early logos theologians believed about Jesus. This lesser god can still be dependent on God. 

 To pray to anyone besides Allah is shirk regardless of whether one believes the thing they are praying to is independent of Allah, I dont know what needs to be explained there. The mushrikun of quraish ultimately believed those who they worshiped besides Allah were dependent on Allah. They said they worshiped them only to get closer to Allah. 

Yes i meant the attributes of essence. By independent, I mean that their Gods had powers without the will of Allah. Again, what do you mean by lesser God? If this "lesser God" has no unique attribute of Allah, and is dependent on Allah, then I don't think that we can consider this any type of God. This is the case with the Imams (a). They were created, did not have any unique attribute of Allah, and were dependent on Allah. And then you mention worship, as I mentioned, this needs to also have a clear definition. Do you agree that it is rationally impossible for there to be two equal Gods, or for Allah to create a "lesser God", that has independent powers?

As for praying, then I would think by definition prayer means to believe that the one you pray to is independent. Otherwise again, we must define what prayer is. Does prayer mean doing the actions of prayer such as sujood? Because, the children of Ya'qub prostrated to Yusuf (a), and we can be sure that this can't be shirk. 

I was referring more to dua. Calling to someone for help, believing that they are dependent on Allah, is not Shirk. However, calling on someone believing that they are independent of Allah, is Shirk.

As for the idolaters of Quraysh, I don't think it is correct to say that they believed their idols were dependent on Allah. If you read the Qur'an holistically, you will find that they definitely believed their idols were independent of Allah. Examples:

Or have they taken other than Allah as intercessors? Say, "Even though they do not possess [power over] anything, nor do they reason?" (39:43)

From this verse, we can see that instead of taking the idols as dependent of Allah and being able to intercede by the permission of Allah (bi idhnillah), they took the idols as independent of Allah and that they could intercede beside Allah (min dunillah).

We see not with you your intercessors whom you claimed to be partners with Allah. (6:94)

From this verse, we can deduce that they believed their idols had independent powers, and made them equal partners with Allah.

Sayyid ‘Abbas Sayyid Karimi has found eighteen proofs from the Qur'an to establish that the pagans of Quraysh believed their idols were independent of Allah. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

 There cannot be multiple gods, that's what intellect & logic dictates.

 But "Shirk" is not limited to any belief of multiple gods. One can commit shirk by obeying someone other than Allah (s.w.t). One can commit shirk by directing his trust or confidence towards someone or something that does not deserve it. 

So you have admitted that multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

So according to your logic, the punishment for someone believing in multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

- To believe that a creation has a power which was attained through other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or that it attained it by itself is shirk.

- To claim any of the unique attributes of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى are applicable to other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is also shirk. 

Would you agree that this belief and claim is rationally impossible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

So you have admitted that multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

So according to your logic, the punishment for someone believing in multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

What do you even mean. We as muslims know that there is only one ilaah. To say otherwise would be kufr and shirk. 

Hence it is impossible to have multiple Gods. 

But there is a difference between the impossibility of there being multiple gods. And the impossibility of the belief in multiple gods. We know, or as you say, existence of multiple gods is impissible. That does not mean belief in multiple gods is impossible. People believe in impossible phenomenon and things all the time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

What do you even mean. We as muslims know that there is only one ilaah. To say otherwise would be kufr and shirk. 

Hence it is impossible to have multiple Gods. 

 But there is a difference between the impossibility of there being multiple gods. And the impossibility of the belief in multiple gods. We know, or as you say, existence of multiple gods is impissible. That does not mean belief in multiple gods is impossible. People believe in impossible phenomenon and things all the time. 

Yes, this is what I meant, .

I understand people can believe impossibilities such as multiple Gods, but it is rationally impossible for there to be multiple Gods. 

I was responding to the brother based on other things he has said in the discussion. He said that "If you understand shirk is "rationally impossible", that would mean that the punishment against Shirk is irrational". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

 

So how do we define Shirk and how do we define worship?

Iblis worshipped Allah for six thousand years, while we do not know whether it was the years of this world or of the years of the hereafter6

....

“…Respite me until the day when they are raised up (7:14)”.

So, Iblis had neither any defect in the principle of belief in Allah’s being the Creator, or in belief in Allah’s Lordship in creation and nor in belief in ma’ad. But still he falls so much! Why? Because he does not believe in Allah’s Lordship in Law-giving (Divine legislation) and docs not regard Allah’s command to be obeyed unquestionably, unless Allah’s command would be consistent with (Ibis’s) own thought and desire." 2

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034818-a-dialogue-on-your-understanding-of-shirk/?tab=comments#comment-2879294

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

  I understand Shirk to be rationally impossible. However, some have defined Shirk as worshipping other than Allah. What is worship? Well, according to the earliest linguists, worship is defined as extreme humility and submissiveness.

“ ..one who worshipped Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam should know that Sayyidina Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam had passed away, the one who worships Allah, let him know that Allah is living and will live for ever..” [3]

This word is not new. Was obedience, respect and considering Muhammad al-Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) his Mawla( Leader)  considered worship? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

So you have admitted that multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

Yes it is impossible for me.

Ask the same question to any Christian, he will give you his rationale with full confidence as to why their god has triune nature. Ask the same question to an athiest to have his rationale as to why there is no god(s).

5 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

So according to your logic, the punishment for someone believing in multiple Gods is rationally impossible.

Is it rationally impossible for human to worship his desires (hawa)?

Is it rationally impossible for human to place his trust & confidence (tawakkal) to someone other than his creator?

Is it rationally impossible for humans to claim someone as his god(s)?

If these things are rationally possible then the punishment for shirk is rationale too. 

Is it rationally impossible for humans to do zulm?

Punishment cannot be prescribed for any sort of impossibilities. 

Edited by Salsabeel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here lies the possibility:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 3:

إِنَّا هَدَيْنَاهُ السَّبِيلَ إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا

Surely We have shown him the way: he may be thankful or unthankful. (English - Shakir) 

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 48:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَٰلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاءُ وَمَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَىٰ إِثْمًا عَظِيمًا

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (English - Shakir) 

If there is no possibility (rationally) that anyone have the capacity to commit this sin, why there is punishment & why there is announcement that Allah (s.w.t) will never forgive them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Yes i meant the attributes of essence. By independent, I mean that their Gods had powers without the will of Allah. Again, what do you mean by lesser God? If this "lesser God" has no unique attribute of Allah, and is dependent on Allah, then I don't think that we can consider this any type of God. This is the case with the Imams (a). They were created, did not have any unique attribute of Allah, and were dependent on Allah. And then you mention worship, as I mentioned, this needs to also have a clear definition. Do you agree that it is rationally impossible for there to be two equal Gods, or for Allah to create a "lesser God", that has independent powers?

By lesser God I mean ontologically lesser. Polytheistic pantheons typically had a hierarchy of gods, its not like they were all equal. Some would even be the children of other gods which is something the idolaters of quraish believed. They believed Allah had daughters who were goddesses. It is impossible for there to be a god that is ontologically equal with the necessary existence. I don't see why it would be irrational for Allah to create a lesser god that has independent powers or a god that is dependent on His will. 

11 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

As for the idolaters of Quraysh, I don't think it is correct to say that they believed their idols were dependent on Allah. If you read the Qur'an holistically, you will find that they definitely believed their idols were independent of Allah. Examples:

Or have they taken other than Allah as intercessors? Say, "Even though they do not possess [power over] anything, nor do they reason?" (39:43)

From this verse, we can see that instead of taking the idols as dependent of Allah and being able to intercede by the permission of Allah (bi idhnillah), they took the idols as independent of Allah and that they could intercede beside Allah (min dunillah).

I really don't see how that verse proves what you are saying. This ayah is in reference to their claims regarding the idols and images according to shaykh toosi. Obviously idols and images do not have power over things and nor do they reason, they are things humans make. أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ شُفَعَاءَ can just be that those intercessors they took besides Allah weren't actually given the power of intercession by Allah regardless of what they believe. This is reminiscent of when Abraham (as) destroyed the idols and his conversation with his people. Are you saying idol worship would have been okay if they believed it was with the permission of Allah? 

11 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

We see not with you your intercessors whom you claimed to be partners with Allah. (6:94)

From this verse, we can deduce that they believed their idols had independent powers, and made them equal partners with Allah.

Sayyid ‘Abbas Sayyid Karimi has found eighteen proofs from the Qur'an to establish that the pagans of Quraysh believed their idols were independent of Allah. 

I don't see how this proves they believed their idols had ontologically equality with Allah nor does it say they believed they had power that wasn't contingent on Allah. There are many ayat that seem to posit that the idolaters of quraish posited their gods and idols as lesser than Allah. Allah would be the supreme creator God in their pantheon.

For instance:
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ - 29:65
And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him. 
Why would they do this unless they believed that ultimately Allah is in control and is greater than their other gods?

قُلْ مَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ وَالْأَرْضِ أَمَّن يَمْلِكُ السَّمْعَ وَالْأَبْصَارَ وَمَن يُخْرِجُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَيُخْرِجُ الْمَيِّتَ مِنَ الْحَيِّ وَمَن يُدَبِّرُ الْأَمْرَ ۚ فَسَيَقُولُونَ اللَّهُ ۚ فَقُلْ أَفَلَا تَتَّقُونَ - 10:31

Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?" They will say, " Allah," so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"
 

Edited by Shi3i_jadeed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×