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Nevsevug

Women’s bodies and their choice of dress

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What should women dress like and why? This is a huge topic is today’s age. Westerners and all easterners that align modernity to western ideals seem to just want everyone to dress as little as possible. Religious people including Muslims believe women should be covered. Either way it seems as if men are the ones who decide what women should look like. If you agree with western ideals then you believe the hijab is oppressive and unnecessary. However, even just not wearing a hijab isn’t good enough. A woman must always look a certain way(that appeals to the male eye). For example, if women show their legs they must be shaved. Women are only attractive if they are above a certain weight but not chubby. Women and their bodies are only good enough if they are conventionally attractive. Breast feeding in public isn’t okay because breasts are meant to be for male appreciation. On the other hand, women cover their bodies but men don’t have to. Women wear hijabs and loose clothing and cover their entire bodies else it isn’t good enough. However, men need only to cover a certain portion of their bodies at all times. It isn’t mandatory for them to be covered head to toe. 

I don’t really have opinions that lean either way, though I do not enjoy seeing people’s bodies be they male or female. I’m also not looking to put down any one view. This is just me putting you thoughts on paper. In my opinion showing your body doesn’t look good and looks a bit animalistic to just have your body parts out. I hate seeing men not wearing shirts in public, on tv, etc and feel the same about women. However I do not understand the Islamic view of making it mandatory for women to cover completely but not men. What do you all think? 

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Women just have to observe the rules of hijab, such as loose clothing, head covered etc. No men have the right to be so critical in terms of how they style themselves.

But yeah the biology/anatomy of men and women is different, so the standard of modesty will not be the same. A woman cannot walk in the public without a bra, but a man can. 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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Whatever way whoever chooses to dress, I think that the most important thing is to maintain ones dignity. 

Dressing in a revealing fashion is not so dignified in my opinion. That goes for both genders.

I think the most dignified dress for a women is the abayya because ideally it says something about her, namely she is not trying to please you with revealing her body to you or feel the need to have her looks evaluated by strangers in order to feel validated. She is aware of the reality of human nature, society and her religion, her aim is to please the Creator and not that which is created. Ideally speaking at least.

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On 12/28/2018 at 10:03 PM, IbnSina said:

I think the most dignified dress for a women is the abayya because ideally it says something about her, namely she is not trying to please you with revealing her body to you or feel the need to have her looks evaluated by strangers in order to feel validated. She is aware of the reality of human nature, society and her religion, her aim is to please the Creator and not that which is created. Ideally speaking at least.

What about in the West where something like that makes you stand out more? Wouldn’t that be defeating the purpose? Also what about loose clothing or dresses? Why abaya?

 

On 12/28/2018 at 9:27 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

But yeah the biology/anatomy of men and women is different, so the standard of modesty will not be the same. A woman cannot walk in the public without a bra, but a man can. 

 

Men often wear such tight clothing that you can see the shape of their privates. In a particular type of relaxed clothing(sweats) it’s very visible. Also women are attracted to muscled men so would it be wrong to have good muscles and show off your chest? 

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5 hours ago, Nevsevug said:

What about in the West where something like that makes you stand out more? Wouldn’t that be defeating the purpose? Also what about loose clothing or dresses? Why abaya?

Stand out in what way?

We do not believe that the hijabs main purpose is for the sake of people, rather for the sake of obedience towards our Creator.

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Wearing a black abaya in the west does cause attention, especially if you only study or work with westerners. It's much easier if you're a stay at home mom or woman. Then you can wear whatever you want without worrying about colleagues etc.

If you can make it work with a black abaya, then that's great, but for most sisters in the younger generations it doesn't work. And at some work places you're not even allowed to wear it, for instance at hospitals.

There's nothing wrong with wearing loose "normal" clothes/dresses. But still that can be difficult for curvy sisters to pull off as even that sometimes shows something. 

Edited by Carlzone

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On 12/29/2018 at 10:09 AM, Nevsevug said:

What should women dress like and why? This is a huge topic is today’s age. Westerners and all easterners that align modernity to western ideals seem to just want everyone to dress as little as possible. Religious people including Muslims believe women should be covered. Either way it seems as if men are the ones who decide what women should look like. If you agree with western ideals then you believe the hijab is oppressive and unnecessary. However, even just not wearing a hijab isn’t good enough. A woman must always look a certain way(that appeals to the male eye). For example, if women show their legs they must be shaved. Women are only attractive if they are above a certain weight but not chubby. Women and their bodies are only good enough if they are conventionally attractive. Breast feeding in public isn’t okay because breasts are meant to be for male appreciation. On the other hand, women cover their bodies but men don’t have to. Women wear hijabs and loose clothing and cover their entire bodies else it isn’t good enough. However, men need only to cover a certain portion of their bodies at all times. It isn’t mandatory for them to be covered head to toe. 

I don’t really have opinions that lean either way, though I do not enjoy seeing people’s bodies be they male or female. I’m also not looking to put down any one view. This is just me putting you thoughts on paper. In my opinion showing your body doesn’t look good and looks a bit animalistic to just have your body parts out. I hate seeing men not wearing shirts in public, on tv, etc and feel the same about women. However I do not understand the Islamic view of making it mandatory for women to cover completely but not men. What do you all think? 

I'm also into this topic. I'm trying to make an opinion but I couldn't. Need more knowledge about hijab. While getting into a discussion with a secular person the things about spirituality and other stuff doesn't work. You've to be more logical. Peeps, kindly do educate us

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On 12/29/2018 at 6:03 AM, IbnSina said:

Ideally speaking at least.

I think that's a subjective view. A woman could be dignified and live to serve her Lord whilst not wearing a abayah. I don't think the "ideal" situation would involve a woman in a abayah. There are also many figure hugging and attention seeking abayahs out there which completely defeat the purpose of maintaining one's dignity.

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On 1/2/2019 at 3:55 PM, Carlzone said:

There's nothing wrong with wearing loose "normal" clothes/dresses.

Imo, this is ideal. You meet the hijaab standards while wearing what is considered normal and common in the society and time you live in (something that is also encouraged in Islam).

I also believe it reinforces the idea that hijaab is an ideal, not a cultural custom (something that the rest of the world should understand better). It's not about wearing specific clothes (abaya, chador, etc.), but how you choose to dress.

Aa for the case of men, there are many considerations I think are commonly missed. Our choice of clothing communicates a lot, not only when it comes to what we should hide. There is a lot written on the subject, actually.

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Women should dress what is approved by their male relatives 

What if they have none? What if they want them to dress scantily? No hijab? Etc etc men aren’t gatekeepers for everything

this is not a good argument lol

dress what Allah approves. Now that’s the way it should be 

Edited by Ralvi

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As salaamun aleikum,

No matter how modest a woman dresses, even if she maxes it out with a chador and a niqab, the wind will ALWAYS be her enemy:/ 

There are not enough hands on a womans body to sufficiently keep the wind from causing whatever material you are wearing to hug your body and curves, no matter how much or how little of a body and curves you have. Beyond a certain point, there is not much that can be done.

To stress out on it and to make your life and mental state intolerable and a literal living hell by attempting the impossible, would actually become counter-beneficial and possibly enter the realm of haram.

I personally dont wear chador or abaya outside the masjid programs because as mentioned above, it attracts WAY more attention in my area of the world. When i HAVE worn abaya in public, its gets REALLY uncomfortable, all the weird stares and looks ive gotten, to the point where ive wondered if i was going to find my tires slashed when i came out to my vehicle:/ Fox and CNN have been VERY successful in my neck of the woods, unfortunately:/

What i wear everyday, which is modest, loose fitting regular ol clothes, is much for fitting for the society i live in...plus, i always trip and stumble when wearing an abaya--.-- I dont know how you sisters pull it off, but props! They be carrying a baby in one arm, two bags of groceries in the other, and walking up a flight of stairs FLAWLESSLY, and I'm over here like, " I can't even do that minus the baby and the grocery bags" :/

Its really up to each  man and woman to get real with themselves regarding if theyre honestly doing the best they can, and to keep to it real, lets just admit the truth, that we men AND  women, are all at different levels in how we present ourselves and in our modesty. In sha Allah we all keep moving forward in developing deeper levels of inner reflection, self honesty, and determination in our submission to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

Side note: No amount of outside pressure will be able to force someone into deeper levels of practice, that is a point the individual needs to reach in their own practice and path, however, that approach is GREAT for fostering bitterness, resentment, anger, and halting spiritual progress,lol.. In short, these things need to be inducted into children from the beginning, and/or hashed out before marriage, not imposed upon someone in the name of "husband/wifes rights" AFTER marriage, because even though these rights definitely do exist for men and women, let's be honest with ourselves, when has forcing someone to do something actually been of any benefit? In fact, quite often, it works the opposite way. There will always be exceptions, but thats not what im addressing here. 

(...just sitting here waiting for the push back,lol)

 

W/s

 

Edited by shia farm girl

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2 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

No matter how modest a woman dresses, even if she maxes it out with a chador and a niqab, the wind will ALWAYS be her enemy:/ 

There are not enough hands on a womans body to sufficiently keep the wind from causing whatever material you are wearing to hug your body and curves, no matter how much or how little of a body and curves you have. Beyond a certain point, there is not much that can be done.

To stress out on it and to make your life and mental state intolerable and a literal living hell by attempting the impossible, would actually become counter-beneficial and possibly enter the realm of haram.

I personally dont wear chador or abaya outside the masjid programs because as mentioned above, it attracts WAY more attention in my area of the world. When i HAVE worn abaya in public, its gets REALLY uncomfortable, all the weird stares and looks ive gotten, to the point where ive wondered if i was going to find my tires slashed when i came out to my vehicle:/ Fox and CNN have been VERY successful in my neck of the woods, unfortunately:/

What i wear everyday, which is modest, loose fitting regular ol clothes, is much for fitting for the society i live in...plus, i always trip and stumble when wearing an abaya--.-- I dont know how you sisters pull it off, but props! They be carrying a baby in one arm, two bags of groceries in the other, and walking up a flight of stairs FLAWLESSLY, and I'm over here like, " I can't even do that minus the baby and the grocery bags" :/

Its really up to each  man and woman to get real with themselves regarding if theyre honestly doing the best they can, and to keep to it real, lets just admit the truth, that we men AND  women, are all at different levels in how we present ourselves and in our modesty. In sha Allah we all keep moving forward in developing deeper levels of inner reflection, self honesty, and determination in our submission to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

Side note: No amount of outside pressure will be able to force someone into deeper levels of practice, that is a point the individual needs to reach in their own practice and path, however, that approach is GREAT for fostering bitterness, resentment, anger, and halting spiritual progress,lol.. In short, these things need to be inducted into children from the beginning, and/or hashed out before marriage, not imposed upon someone in the name of "husband/wifes rights" AFTER marriage, because even though these rights definitely do exist for men and women, let's be honest with ourselves, when has forcing someone to do something actually been of any benefit? In fact, quite often, it works the opposite way. There will always be exceptions, but thats not what im addressing here. 

(...just sitting here waiting for the push back,lol)

 

W/s

 

Exactly, encouraging and requiring it while they are children will already give them the world view necessary to keep being modest as adults. If they weren’t taught as children then how can you expect them to fully appreciate this as adults? Especially when the society around them doesn’t care about modesty? We have to teach them that even doing this can compromise their beliefs, being modest is very central to our personal beliefs and our outward presentation to not only the people around us but also to our Imams and to Allah. This is for men and women. Men shouldn’t even be looking women, and women shouldn’t either. But this isn’t stressed enough at home nor outside 

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@Ralvi Yes, it makes me really sad when i see little kids, im talking LITTLE,mostly girls, at the masjid, running around with tiny shorts that barely cover their nether regions, and super short  sleeve  or no sleeve shirts..people dont realize that by dressing their daughters this way, it is eliminatinng their haya and the element of shame of exposing their bodies to strangers. It teaches them to be comfortable baring their skin, then, when theyre teens, theyve lost their sense of discomfort and it will be very difficult to get them to act differently after having lost that haya:(

W/s

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On 1/2/2019 at 5:36 PM, Nevsevug said:

Men often wear such tight clothing that you can see the shape of their privates. In a particular type of relaxed clothing(sweats) it’s very visible. Also women are attracted to muscled men so would it be wrong to have good muscles and show off your chest? 

Salam ,it’s also said that we must wear asthat people don’t point at us in public & don’t wear dress of fame  our Imams as men were wearing costumes with dresses that didn’t show their private parts but they were wearing what fits them with best looking that was showing somehow their musclenity a bit not whole of it 

for women is stricter rules but they must wear outfit in a way that people don’t point to them in public & don’t cause trouble for them from non Muslims but they must follow Islamic rules about head covering & other rules 

and both must wear in away that we can separate men from women 

it’s a sign of end days that men & women looks like each other in public .

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On 12/29/2018 at 3:09 AM, Nevsevug said:

However I do not understand the Islamic view of making it mandatory for women to cover completely but not men. What do you all think? 

1

Just looking at this statement. Men and women are not the same. One is not better or less because of the gender, but the genders are not the same.

The beauty of women and the nature of man should be considered if you want to know why IMHO.

Furthermore, I advise you to read more or so about the subject, if you want.


Al-Islam.org (Googling al-islam.org + subject or just on the website)
AhlulBayt TV Documentary and main channel has useful videos in this regard.

 

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On 1/3/2019 at 10:44 PM, 2Timeless said:

I think that's a subjective view. A woman could be dignified and live to serve her Lord whilst not wearing a abayah. I don't think the "ideal" situation would involve a woman in a abayah. There are also many figure hugging and attention seeking abayahs out there which completely defeat the purpose of maintaining one's dignity.

What the ideal way of living for a muslim women is has been defined by the role models we have in shia Islam for women, infallible role models in fact.

A women can have the ideal akhlaq of a muslimah or she can have the ideal exterior of a muslimah or she could have BOTH, it is a possibility. Achieving one of them should not be used as a reason to neglect the other one.

I understand it can be a safety issue for some sisters living in the west but in my opinion it does not change the ideal and the question would rather be if it isn't better to move from such a place in my opinion.

Edited by IbnSina

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@IbnSina

It's not possible for everyone to move back home.

I've been in Iraq quite a lot lately, each time getting deeper into the Iraqi society. Honestly, the fasad and filth I came across there (in our holy cities!) were much worse than what I have come across in Europe. Now I'm thinking that it's safer to have my future kids grow up in Europe rather than in Iraq. Very sad, but true. 

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5 hours ago, Carlzone said:

@IbnSina

It's not possible for everyone to move back home.

I've been in Iraq quite a lot lately, each time getting deeper into the Iraqi society. Honestly, the fasad and filth I came across there (in our holy cities!) were much worse than what I have come across in Europe. Now I'm thinking that it's safer to have my future kids grow up in Europe rather than in Iraq. Very sad, but true. 

Of course not everyone can move back home and moving to a better place does not necessarily mean back home, could even mean to another place in the west that is not as muslim hostile.

I am happy you have not seen much fasad where you live in the country you live in Europe, where I live it is institutionalized, which means they systematically teach your kids to do haram. I think you will find groups of good people and groups of bad people in every country, but the difference is when you turn on your TV in the living room and a naked women is in your face. Or when the kids cartoon teach your children that its okay to have two fathers and the characters are having haram relationships. Or when they want to force my daughter to swim and dance with the boys in her class. Or when they tell my child that evolution theory is not theory but factual proof. Or when alcohol is spread out thru every layer of society, where the parents let their kids try their alcohol for the first time. Or when I have to fear for my wife when she walks out with a hijab on. I could go on for hours.

That is not the environment I want to live in nor raise my offspring in. As a man who travels for a living I can say first hand that every society has its negatives and positives, if we are lucky in life we get to chose which negatives we want in our life. Spiritual deprivation and institutional submission to ones nafs are not the kind of negatives I wish to have in my life nor for my family.

Theres a difference between living in a society in which haram is offered openly, in fact in certain cases enforced upon you, and living in a society in which you have to make an active effort in order to achieve it.

 

 

Edited by IbnSina

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43 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Of course not everyone can move back home and moving to a better place does not necessarily mean back home, could even mean to another place in the west that is not as muslim hostile.

I am happy you have not seen much fasad where you live in the country you live in Europe, where I live it is institutionalized, which means they systematically teach your kids to do haram. I think you will find groups of good people and groups of bad people in every country, but the difference is when you turn on your TV in the living room and a naked women is in your face. Or when the kids cartoon teach your children that its okay to have two fathers and the characters are having haram relationships. Or when they want to force my daughter to swim and dance with the boys in her class. Or when they tell my child that evolution theory is not theory but factual proof. Or when alcohol is spread out thru every layer of society, where the parents let their kids try their alcohol for the first time. Or when I have to fear for my wife when she walks out with a hijab on. I could go on for hours.

That is not the environment I want to live in nor raise my offspring in. As a man who travels for a living I can say first hand that every society has its negatives and positives, if we are lucky in life we get to chose which negatives we want in our life. Spiritual deprivation and institutional submission to ones nafs are not the kind of negatives I wish to have in my life nor for my family.

Theres a difference between living in a society in which haram is offered openly, in fact in certain cases enforced upon you, and living in a society in which you have to make an active effort in order to achieve it.

 

 

I agree with most of what you're saying. 

I came to Europe as a small small child and I went to kindergarten and school and university here. All western ones. And I basically didn't have Muslim friends growing up. 

My parents didn't allow me to go swimming, dancing or travelling with the other kids. They didn't allow me to go to parties or anything like that. I didn't even know what alcohol smelled like until some years ago when I was on a boat travelling to another country and westerners were smelling weird. That is how I found out what alcohol smells like. And the country I live in has amongst the highest alcohol consumption levels in the world. 

As for TV - it's very dangerous as it brainwashes us without us realizing it. I abandoned TV perhaps 9 years ago and I don't think i would allow my kids to watch TV freely. I'd check what they want to watch. I'd encourage them to watch religious channels. Or just spend quality time together instead of being glued in front of a TV.

As for raising kids, personally, I would be a stay at home mom and not allow them to go to kindergarten, because I have worked there myself and seen what they brainwash kids with. For instance that girls and boys are the same (which I myself was taught and believed for a long time), homosexuality in books as something ok and natural etc.

I would not want westerners to get to my kids minds and belief systems before me. 

Anyway, my point is that you can stay away from all of those haram things if you want to, even in fasadspreading places. Yes, it's more difficult. And if you have the option of moving to an even better and less fadadspreading country then of course that is better. 

In the end I believe that what is most important is to live by Islamic standards yourself and to have a good relationship with your kids. Coz then they'd want to be like you. 

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Salam,  oh my Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى I feel so disgusted and shameful just by watching those videos especially the last part of last video. But they had no shame and dignity making a lie about me, God for bid did they think or saying something similar about me or they use  Islamic historical events to justify a little different lies, what is the difference  I feel like the sooner I go to the next world the better for me because of the lies and false information they have spread about me but now because  of my unborn baby I can't even pray for that either.   I hope they do not take my writing out of context or take it in the wrong way.

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On 1/5/2019 at 8:56 PM, Carlzone said:

I agree with most of what you're saying. 

I came to Europe as a small small child and I went to kindergarten and school and university here. All western ones. And I basically didn't have Muslim friends growing up. 

My parents didn't allow me to go swimming, dancing or travelling with the other kids. They didn't allow me to go to parties or anything like that. I didn't even know what alcohol smelled like until some years ago when I was on a boat travelling to another country and westerners were smelling weird. That is how I found out what alcohol smells like. And the country I live in has amongst the highest alcohol consumption levels in the world. 

As for TV - it's very dangerous as it brainwashes us without us realizing it. I abandoned TV perhaps 9 years ago and I don't think i would allow my kids to watch TV freely. I'd check what they want to watch. I'd encourage them to watch religious channels. Or just spend quality time together instead of being glued in front of a TV.

As for raising kids, personally, I would be a stay at home mom and not allow them to go to kindergarten, because I have worked there myself and seen what they brainwash kids with. For instance that girls and boys are the same (which I myself was taught and believed for a long time), homosexuality in books as something ok and natural etc.

I would not want westerners to get to my kids minds and belief systems before me. 

Anyway, my point is that you can stay away from all of those haram things if you want to, even in fasadspreading places. Yes, it's more difficult. And if you have the option of moving to an even better and less fadadspreading country then of course that is better. 

In the end I believe that what is most important is to live by Islamic standards yourself and to have a good relationship with your kids. Coz then they'd want to be like you. 

 

You know there is also one more aspect you need to consider and thats the most important one in my opinion, which is where you see the society heading, in what direction, will it get worse or better?

All the bad things I mentioned and all the bad things you know of yourself, none of them will get better in the future from my observations and understanding, I can see that from the last 20 years to now.

How will it be in another 20 years?

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On 1/5/2019 at 2:08 PM, IbnSina said:

Speaking about institutionalized fasad/haram, this came out today:

 

 

I want to die, in Islamic schools too!!!!?????!!!!

grrrrrrrrahhhhhhh!!!!!!

ive got two younger brothers for God’s sake!! One is in elementary and the other in middle school! T-T

and I wanted them to be innocent for as long as possible. I was very young when I got to know ‘everything’ so I don’t want them to go through what I did, but for them these people will try to inject into their EDUCATION?! Blasphemy!! 

:angry:

Children are children for God’s sake, we’re being indoctrinated to not even be allowed to protect them! 

Edited by Ralvi

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