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skyweb1987

Quran and Ahl Albayt - Numerical Relations

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9 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

If you insist on more than one Ulil Amr in the life of Prophet Muhamamd saww then I respond as given in the following:

As per hadith of the Prophet saww 12 Infallible Imams are Ulil Amr and three of these  Imams were present in the life of the Prophet Muahhamd saww. Imam Ali as , Imam Hussan AS  and Imam Hussain AS. I can agree to this interpretation alone. please.

 

On 2/15/2019 at 5:47 PM, Jaane Ya Ali said:

So Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain, Bibi Fatima were part of the authority that managed the well being and security of the ummah at that time? [4:83]

I would've thought that the likes of Hazrat Hamza [if he was still alive] and/or other generals would've played a part in security measures, hence making them part of those with authority and fulfilling the plurality of ulu amr.

 

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16 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I don't know why you're ignoring the fact there is only one Imam/ulil amr at a time.

This is not the case with fuqaha. There can be multiple fuqaha present at a time and you need to choose from among them which one is best to follow.

I know 12er doctrine dictates one active Imam at a time. Ulul amr on the other hand says there could be multiple at one time, as was the case during the time of the Prophet [saw].

So you've adopted a man-made system, where one undertakes studies to become a mujtahid and go on the "most knowledgeable" list. Anyone can also become a mujtahid, given enough time in the hawza. I'm not attacking the system. Afterall, you have to adapt to the situation of not being able to access your 12th. But we all know how the marjaiyyat system has evolved over time too. And at the end of the day, you are listening to fallible people and relying on their judgement.

13 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

How do you consider that the scholars are equal to the proof of Allah ie Hujjatullah> 12 th Imam is Hujat tullah,  Ulil Amr an infallible Imam  and successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw.?

 

38 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

 

most Imami jurists usually refer to the second part of this tradition to establish the guardianship of the jurists. The statement makes clear that fuqaha (ruwat) act as the proof (Hujjah) of the Imam in all matters in which the Imam acts as the proof of Allah. Imam Khomeini describes a ‘proof of God’ (or Hujjah) as someone who God has designated to conduct affairs; all his deeds, actions and sayings constitute a proof for the Muslims. If the proof commands you to perform a certain act and you fail to obey him, or if despite the existence of the proof, you turn to oppressive authorities for the solution of your affairs, then God almighty will advance a proof against you on the Day of Judgment. [Imam Khomeini, Islam and Revolution, p. 86.]

In summary, being a hujjat implies the authority of one over his followers, and hence the injunctions of the holder of such a status must be complied with. Since the Imam as God's hujjat (the ‘proof’ that Allah will not accept any excuses for disobeying) has designated the fuqaha as his Hujjah, the commands and directives of the fuqaha are as those of the Imam.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Shia-political-thought-ahmed-vaezi/why-wilayat-al-faqih#signet-letter-tuqih63-absent-Imam

Do you disagree with Khomeini's view?

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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14 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Do you disagree with Khomeini's view?

Mujtadhid is the most learned man ie most learned scholar yes it is true.. 

Where is the answer of my question that 

How do you consider that the scholars are equal to the proof of Allah ie Hujjatullah> 12 th Imam is Hujat tullah,  Ulil Amr an infallible Imam  and successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw.?

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2 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

5. Because the ulul amr are not part of the party to whom one must refer back to upon dispute, which is why you have a hadith in al-Kafi as posted by Leibniz where ulul amr have been added to the referral party:

The question asked is mentioned below again:

5.  If the Prophet Muhamamd saaw is infallible as all Muslims believe then how can a fallible be Ulil Amr other than chosen representative  of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who with same absolute authority covered under one "Atiu" for the Prophet and Ulil Amr in 4:59

I have already mentioned that here is no verse in the Qur'an  that people chosen / fallible, is caliph / Imam or Ulil Amr in the Qur'an. Also there is no example that a people chosen / fallible is caliph , Imam, successor  or Ulil Amr except representatives chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The Prophets are infallible as per Muslims beliefs so no fallible can be a caliphs/ Imam/ / successor of the Prophet or Ulil Amr. 

Thus it is sufficient evidence to prove that one "Atiu" that covers both the Prophet and Ulil Amr are infallible (in verse 4:59) and as per Shia belief they are 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet saww.

The Ulil Amr should also be referred to (in the verse 4:83) for the knowledge of the matters in addition to the verse 4:59 so your claim is rejected on this basis.

Edited by skyweb1987

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

How many "Mowla" were there during the time of Prophet?

According to your narrative, only Prophet (S) and I suppose Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would be Mowla at the time of these verses being revealed. Imam Ali was only declared Mowla in Ghadeer, near the end of the Prophetic mission.

 

18 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Mujtadhid is the most learned man ie most learned scholar yes it is true.. 

Where is the answer of my question that 

How do you consider that the scholars are equal to the proof of Allah ie Hujjatullah> 12 th Imam is Hujat tullah,  Ulil Amr an infallible Imam  and successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw.?

Thank you for accepting that you follow a man-made system. Again, I am no criticising. I understand the need to adapt to the situation we're presently in.

As for your question, which I've answered twice now. Your own scholars say they have the same level of hujjat as the 12th Imam during his ghaibah due to "they are my proofs to you, and I am Allah’s proof to them”. I quote again:

Quote

most Imami jurists usually refer to the second part of this tradition to establish the guardianship of the jurists. The statement makes clear that fuqaha (ruwat) act as the proof (Hujjah) of the Imam in all matters in which the Imam acts as the proof of Allah. Imam Khomeini describes a ‘proof of God’ (or Hujjah) as someone who God has designated to conduct affairs; all his deeds, actions and sayings constitute a proof for the Muslims. If the proof commands you to perform a certain act and you fail to obey him, or if despite the existence of the proof, you turn to oppressive authorities for the solution of your affairs, then God almighty will advance a proof against you on the Day of Judgment. [Imam Khomeini, Islam and Revolution, p. 86.]

In summary, being a hujjat implies the authority of one over his followers, and hence the injunctions of the holder of such a status must be complied with. Since the Imam as God's hujjat (the ‘proof’ that Allah will not accept any excuses for disobeying) has designated the fuqaha as his Hujjah, the commands and directives of the fuqaha are as those of the Imam.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Shia-political-thought-ahmed-vaezi/why-wilayat-al-faqih#signet-letter-tuqih63-absent-Imam

Hence why Wilayatal Faqih is a thing.

 

17 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The question asked is mentioned below again:

5.  If the Prophet Muhamamd saaw is infallible as all Muslims believe then how can a fallible be Ulil Amr other than chosen representative  of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who with same absolute authority covered under one "Atiu" for the Prophet and Ulil Amr in 4:59

I have already mentioned that here is no verse in the Qur'an  that people chosen / fallible, is caliph / Imam or Ulil Amr in the Qur'an. Also there is no example that a people chosen / fallible is caliph , Imam, successor  or Ulil Amr except representatives chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The Prophets are infallible as per Muslims beliefs so no fallible can be a caliphs/ Imam/ / successor of the Prophet or Ulil Amr. 

Thus it is sufficient evidence to prove that one "Atiu" that covers both the Prophet and Ulil Amr are infallible (in verse 4:59) and as per Shia belief they are 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet saww.

The Ulil Amr should also be referred to (in the verse 4:83) for the knowledge of the matters in addition to the verse 4:59 so your claim is rejected on this basis.

I don't believe Allah only appoints infallibles. This is my evidence for it:

1. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act. [10:14]

2. But they rejected him, so We delivered him and those with him in the ark, and We made them rulers and drowned those who rejected Our communications; see then what was the end of the (people) warned. [10:73]

3. Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the Earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [24:55]

4. And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs, [28:5]

5. He it is Who made you rulers in the land; therefore whoever disbelieves, his unbelief is against himself; and their unbelief does not increase the disbelievers with their Lord in anything except hatred; and their unbelief does not increase the disbelievers in anything except loss. [35:39]

6. And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. [32:24]

7. And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil). [25:74]

This is sufficient to reject the claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only gives authority to an infallible.

Fi Amanillah

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5 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Hence why Wilayatal Faqih is a thing.

Wiayat  faqih has nothing to do with the Shiite creed. It is only a concept by a group of people in Iran.

Edited by skyweb1987

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5 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

This is sufficient to reject the claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only gives authority to an infallible.

This is false interpretation of these verses.

 

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18 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Wiayat  faqih has nothing to do with the Shiite creed. It is only a concept by a group of people in Iran.

You could say the same about Taqleed; That it has nothing to do with Shi'I creed and was rather a concept which evolved over time and has become what it has.

17 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

This is false interpretation of these verses.

It's scary to think that our beliefs are based on interpretations and transmission through the fallible.

Thank you for your time.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have mercy upon us.

Fi Amanillah

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23.   The following verses are famous and numerical research on these is also mentioned below:

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُو۟لِى ٱلْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ 

The first part of the verse mentions three types who are to be obeyed: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet Muhammad SAWW and Ulil Amr.  This part of verse has14 dots in it. Hadith about the verse mentions that 12 Imams are to be obeyed who are Ulil Amr for us. 12 Imams are from the progeny of the Prophet Muhmamd saww  out of 14 infallible.

The following may serve  further clarification of  14 regarding the word "Atiu".أَطِيعُوا۟ 

 ٣_٣٢  قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ

٣_١٣٢         وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

٤_٥٩  يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُو۟لِى ٱلْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَٰزَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍۢ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌۭ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

٥_٩٢  وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٨_١     يَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلْأَنفَالِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلْأَنفَالُ لِلَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ ۖ فَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَصْلِحُوا۟ ذَاتَ بَيْنِكُمْ ۖ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥٓ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

٨_٢٠  يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ

٨_٤٦  وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَا تَنَٰزَعُوا۟ فَتَفْشَلُوا۟ وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ ۖ وَٱصْبِرُوٓا۟ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلصَّٰبِرِينَ

٢٠_٩٠         وَلَقَدْ قَالَ لَهُمْ هَٰرُونُ مِن قَبْلُ يَٰقَوْمِ إِنَّمَا فُتِنتُم بِهِۦ ۖ وَإِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى وَأَطِيعُوٓا۟ أَمْرِى

٢٤_٥٤         قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا۟ ۚ وَمَا عَلَى ٱلرَّسُولِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٢٤_٥٦         وَأَقِيمُوا۟ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُوا۟ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

٤٧_٣٣         ۞ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوٓا۟ أَعْمَٰلَكُمْ

٥٨_١٣         ءَأَشْفَقْتُمْ أَن تُقَدِّمُوا۟ بَيْنَ يَدَىْ نَجْوَىٰكُمْ صَدَقَٰتٍۢ ۚ فَإِذْ لَمْ تَفْعَلُوا۟ وَتَابَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَأَقِيمُوا۟ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُوا۟ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ ۚ وَٱللَّهُ خَبِيرٌۢ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ

٦٤_١٢         وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

٦٤_١٦         فَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ مَا ٱسْتَطَعْتُمْ وَٱسْمَعُوا۟ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ وَأَنفِقُوا۟ خَيْرًۭا لِّأَنفُسِكُمْ ۗ وَمَن يُوقَ شُحَّ نَفْسِهِۦ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

 

has been mentioned in 14 verses in the whole Qur'an  أَطِيعُوا۟

أَطِيعُوا۟5 verses have the word   

two times in these.

 The Qur'an does exhibit  the 5 & 14 infallible in its sequence.

(.............Continued)

Edited by skyweb1987

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