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Quran and Ahl Albayt - Numerical Relations

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2 hours ago, Fink said:

It's a serious question. You're telling me to trust fuqaha to differentiate between quarter of a million contradictory Shia hadiths ? Of which only 10-20 thousand have been considered reliable by likes of Sayed Al-khoei RA.

You have just proved why we need to trust on fuqaha.

2 hours ago, Fink said:

So to get back to my point , you will never reliably understand what the Prophet and the Imams said using hadith. You're getting guesses my friend. Except for the very few mutawatir hadiths. 

It's your guess, we are reliably understanding the ahadith and holding firmly to the message & commands of Prophet & Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them). 

It's your problem that you neither have proper understanding of the verses of Qur'an nor you have trust on the sahih us-sanad ahadith of Ma'someen (asws). So you have closed both the doors (Allah & Prophet, Qur'an & Hadith).  

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21: Imams Numeric used in Qur'an

Sr No.

Sura No.

Verse No.

Prime of Sura

Prime of Verse

1

2

124

2

7

2

11

17

2

8

3

15

79

6

7

4

17

71

8

8

5

25

74

7

2

6

36

12

9

3

7

46

12

1

3

Sum

 

 

35

38

 

 

 

 

 

1

9

12

9

3

2

21

73

3

1

3

28

5

1

5

4

28

41

1

5

5

32

24

5

6

Sum

 

 

19

20

 

 

 

 

 

12

270

544

=35+19=54

=19+20=39

 

9

13

=54+39=112

 

 

I.          The numeric that are extracted from the above analysis are 112, 13 & 9.

ii.          Sura Number 112 is named as Sura Tauheed is the identification of true concept of Tauheed.

-          It consists of 4 verses and these verses comprise  of 47 letters.

-          The same 47 is the Sr No, of Sura Muhamamd saw ie the name of the Prophet saw.

-          The same number ie 47 letters have been in the Verse of purification (last part of 33:33)

-          The same number of letters ie 47 have been used in the names of the pure personalities from the  Ahl alabayt as (13 Nos including 12 Imams and Fatima   SAA daughter of the  Prophet saw) of the Prophet Muhamamd saw.

-          The following link can be seen for verification.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060471-Qur'an-and-ahl-albayt-numerical-relations/?do=findComment&comment=3189527

iii.         5 personalities including the Prophet Muhamamd saaw, his daughter Fatima saa , and three Imams including Imam Ali AS, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain AS were present  in the life of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw and the other 9 Imams also came  after Imam Hussain AS 

(...............Continued)

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, Fink said:

More puzzling is when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says look folks I don't know what will happen to me or you - I don't know the unseen, and then fuqaha come along and invent this concept of wilayah altakweeniya. Which is basically shirk redressed. 

So this is your understanding of Prophethood? You understand Prophet as ignorant man who only listen to wahi and forward it to us and he has no knowledge of anything. I can see the similarity of this ideology with the one mentioned in chapter 9:

وَمِنْهُمُ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ النَّبِيَّ وَيِقُولُونَ هُوَ أُذُنٌ

Actually you have the problems with the wilayah of Prophet & Ahlul Bayt too. So how can you understand wilayah of faqeeh!!! 
 

There are some human beings who also have access to the knowledge of unseen. For example:

عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَى‏ غَيْبِهِ أَحَداً / إِلَّا مَنِ ارْتَضَى‏ مِن رَّسُولٍ فَإِنَّهُ يَسْلُكُ مِن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ رَصَداً

“The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any. Except to him whom He chooses as an apostle; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him.” (72:26-27)

مَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيَذَرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى‏ مَآ أَنْتُمْ عَلَيْهِ حَتّى‏ يَمِيزَ الْخَبِيثَ مِنَ الطَّيِّبِ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُطْلِعَكُمْ عَلَى الْغَيْبِ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَجْتَبِى مِن رُّسُلِهِ مَن يَشَآءُ

“On no account will Allah leave the believers in the condition which you are in until He separates the evil from the good; nor is Allah going to make you acquainted with the unseen, but Allah chooses of His apostles whom He pleases…” (3:179)

ذِى قُوَّةٍ عِندَ ذِى الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ / مُّطَاعٍ ثَمَّ أَمِينٍ / وَ مَا صَاحِبُكُم بِمَجْنُونٍ / وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ بِالْأُفُقِ الْمُبِينِ / وَ مَا هُوَ عَلَى الْغَيْبِ بِضَنِينٍ

“The processor of strength, having an honorable place with the Lord of the Dominion, One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust. And your companion is not gone mad. And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon. Nor of the unseen is he a tenacious concealer.” (81:20-24)

ذَ لِكَ مِنْ أَنْبَآءِ الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيْكَ

This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you…” (3:44)

 

Edited by Salsabeel

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9 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

So this is your understanding of Prophethood? You understand Prophet as ignorant man who only listen to wahi and forward it to us and he has no knowledge of anything. I can see the similarity of this ideology with the one mentioned in chapter 9:

وَمِنْهُمُ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ النَّبِيَّ وَيِقُولُونَ هُوَ أُذُنٌ

Actually you have the problems with the wilayah of Prophet & Ahlul Bayt too. So how can you understand wilayah of faqeeh!!! 
 

 

Hmmmm no that's what the Qur'an says. You want the verse number?

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16 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Imam means singular form believed in them (7 times)

Imams plural form it is not believed but rejected (5 times)

All are Imams in plural form ie 12 not a single Imam. as mentioned in Qur'an.

I believe in all what has been revealed to us is truth and count of all (7 +5 ) is 12 no one can deny unless he has closed  eyes.

wasalam

22. The verses with word of Imam /Imams seems resemble in number to 12 Imams in the following manner:

 

Sr No.

Sura No.

Verse No.

Resemblance in number to

1

2

124

Imam Ali ibne Abi Talib AS

2

9

12

Imam Hassan bin Ali AS

3

11

17

Imam Hussain bin Ali AS

4

15

79

Imam Ali bin Hussain AS

5

17

71

Imam Muhamamd  bin Ali  AS

6

21

73

Imam Jafar bin Muhamamd  AS

7

25

74

Imam Musa bin Jafar AS

8

28

5

Imam Ali bin Musa AS

9

28

41

Imam Muhamamd bin Ali AS

10

32

24

Imam Ali bin Muhamamd  AS

11

36

12

Imam Hassan bin Ali  AS

12

46

12

Imam Muhamamd bin Hassan  AS (Al Mahdi)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The total count of verses where word Imam both in singular and plural form has been used is exactly 12.

The verse no. is exactly equal to 12 as mentioned above for 3 surah. The names of 3 Imams are Muhammad on the name of the Prophet Muhaamd saaw.

The above analysis confirms that there are 12 Imams and the verses seem resemblance in number to each of Imam in the above mentioned manner.

(.........Continued)

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 minute ago, Fink said:

Hmmmm no that's what the Qur'an says. You want the verse number?

I don't want the verse numbers, I have seen those verses and others referred above too. And I also know the words of Prophet (S) mentioning himself as "madinatul ilm". 
 

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19 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Ulil amr are the Ahlul Bayt (asws) only. If these Ahlul Bayt nominate or authorizes some one for some job then that someone too can be considered as ulil amr.

Well, as others can be nominated by the Prophet to be part of the ulul amr, then it certainly isn't exclusive to the Ahlul Bayt is what I'm saying, and so can't be used as proof of 12 infallible Imams. The likes of Usama ibn Zayd who was nominated to lead the expedition of invading the Syrian frontier as one example of being given authority.

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3 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Well, as others can be nominated by the Prophet to be part of the ulul amr, then it certainly isn't exclusive to the Ahlul Bayt is what I'm saying, and so can't be used as proof of 12 infallible Imams. The likes of Usama ibn Zayd who was nominated to lead the expedition of invading the Syrian frontier as one example of being given authority.

As I made it clear that Ulil amr are the bearers of the minniyat of Prophet and are infallibles, purified etc. 

The example of Usama is good, but his obedience was not made obligatory in all matters. A limited power of attorney for any specific event is other thing and irrevocable general power is other.

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Refer back to Allah and his Messenger is pretty straight forward. It acknowledges that ulil amr are not infallible. Who is ulil amr right now? Sistani? Khamenei?—are they infallible?

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10 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Refer back to Allah and his Messenger is pretty straight forward. It acknowledges that ulil amr are not infallible. Who is ulil amr right now? Sistani? Khamenei?—are they infallible?

Ulil Amr is 12th Imam Al Mahdi as who is the 12th successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw presently for Shia.

You seem just confusing the fuqaha / scholars with Ulil Amr. These scholars make the attention of the people towards the religious matters in the light of Qur'an,  sayings of the Prophet saww and Imams from the pure progeny of the Prophet saww. 

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Well, as others can be nominated by the Prophet to be part of the ulul amr, then it certainly isn't exclusive to the Ahlul Bayt is what I'm saying, and so can't be used as proof of 12 infallible Imams. The likes of Usama ibn Zayd who was nominated to lead the expedition of invading the Syrian frontier as one example of being given authority.

Salam Prophet (pbu)  only expresses Allah will not his will announcing Imam is from Allah but choosing commander is by Prophet (pbu) althought by choosing Usama Prophet (pbu) tried to teach people accepting ulil Amr from a simpler example .

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

Ulil Amr is 12th Imam Al Mahdi as who is the 12th successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw presently for Shia.

You seem just confusing the fuqaha / scholars with Ulil Amr. These scholars make the attention of the people towards the religious matters in the light of Qur'an,  sayings of the Prophet saww and Imams from the pure progeny of the Prophet saww. 

 

How do we obey 12th Imam if he is not accessible?

also I think you are fixated that ulil amr = 12 Imams. You haven’t looked at the verse from an objective view.

Edited by 786:)

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You read “Follow Allah, the Messenger, and Ulil Amr” as “Follow Allah, the Messenger, and 12 Imams

then the next sentence you read “If you quarrel then refer back to Allah and his Messenger” as “If you quarrel then refer back to Allah, his Messenger, and 12 Imams

this is a clear inconsistency and fallacy. You are being oblivious to the verse and reading it with preconceived notions.

It can either mean one of two things:

1) ulil amr = 12 Imams AND they are fallible 

OR

2) ulil amr <> 12 Imams

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

Ulil Amr is 12th Imam Al Mahdi as who is the 12th successor of the Prophet Muhamamd saaw presently for Shia.

You seem just confusing the fuqaha / scholars with Ulil Amr. These scholars make the attention of the people towards the religious matters in the light of Qur'an,  sayings of the Prophet saww and Imams from the pure progeny of the Prophet saww. 

There is no proof the 12th Imam exists. Aleast not on a level to be doctrine. There are some reports that indicate the 11th Imam may have had a son. Well humans can have kids , thats not new.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

How do we obey 12th Imam if he is not accessible?

also I think you are fixated that ulil amr = 12 Imams. You haven’t looked at the verse from an objective view.

In the period of occultation / ghaibah  of 12th Imam initially there were 4 deputies to the Imam. After wards,  In the light of sayings of Imam   Ulema /fuqha /scholars should be approached regarding the religious matters in the light of verses of Qur'an, sayings of the Prophet and sayings of the Imams.

The hadith of the Prophet saww mentions 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet saww as Ulil Amr, I have not fixed them,

The is no other verse mentioning the alternate definition of Ulil Amr for people chosen caliph / successor of the Prophet saww etc instead of chosen representative of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you like to quote it please do mention for confirmation of your thoughts

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You read “Follow Allah, the Messenger, and Ulil Amr” as “Follow Allah, the Messenger, and 12 Imams

then the next sentence you read “If you quarrel then refer back to Allah and his Messenger” as “If you quarrel then refer back to Allah, his Messenger, and 12 Imams

this is a clear inconsistency and fallacy. You are being oblivious to the verse and reading it with preconceived notions.

It can either mean one of two things:

1) ulil amr = 12 Imams AND they are fallible 

OR

2) ulil amr <> 12 Imams

This is actually the opinion of sayed kamal alhaidari as well. That you can disagree with ulil amr.

Edited by Fink

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Here's what puzzles me. The 12ers say they conclusively know the 11th Imam had a son and that he went into gaiba. 

However, the Shias that were present were so confused the issue earned the name "The dillema" . Books were written on the topic. Including one by shaykh saduq. 

There was atleast a DOZEN mini sects that all disagreed on what happened. 

And now over a 1000 years later, someone got it right?

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31 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

In the period of occultation / ghaibah  of 12th Imam initially there were 4 deputies to the Imam. After wards,  In the light of sayings of Imam   Ulema /fuqha /scholars should be approached regarding the religious matters in the light of verses of Qur'an, sayings of the Prophet and sayings of the Imams.

The hadith of the Prophet saww mentions 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet saww as Ulil Amr, I have not fixed them,

The is no other verse mentioning the alternate definition of Ulil Amr for people chosen caliph / successor of the Prophet saww instead of chosen representative of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you like to quote it please do mention for confirmation of your thoughts

wasalam

You claim the messenger established who ulil amr were. Then you say the last of the ulil amr transferred authority to the ulema/fuqaha/scholars. So the last of the Imams transferred authority to fallibles. So now authority has gone from in the hands of divinely appointed to system appointed. Is this not a fallacy based upon your understanding of the verse?

Is this not the same thing we batter Sunnis about? They handed authority to fallibles after the Prophet. We just did the same thing 250 years later.

Edited by 786:)

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9 minutes ago, Fink said:

Here's what puzzles me. The 12ers say they conclusively know the 11th Imam had a son and that he went into gaiba. 

However, the Shias that were present were so confused the issue earned the name "The dillema" . Books were written on the topic. Including one by shaykh saduq. 

There was atleast a DOZEN mini sects that all disagreed on what happened. 

And now over a 1000 years later, someone got it right?

The trust is vested in the supposed deputies who took khums on behalf of the Imam.

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