Jump to content
skyweb1987

Quran and Ahl Albayt - Numerical Relations

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The word Imam has been used total 12 times in the Qur'an. 

7 times in singular form and 5 times in plural form the verses that has the word Imam  are mentioned below

The word Imam [singular] has been mentioned 7 times as previously stated.

The word a'immah [plural] mentioned 5 times.

Why are you adding when Imam means one and a'immah means collection. This does not equal to 12 Imams as Imam has not been mentioned singularly 12 times.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

How can there be 12 Imams in her progeny while her husband is the first Imam? You need to redo your math :).

There is no doubt among Muslims in the Imamate of Ali, Hassan and Hussain (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them). Ali ((عليه السلام)) is famous as Imamin Mubeen while his two sons are famous as "syeda shababe ahlil jannah".

Imamate is a covenant of Allah therefore all Imams are chosenones of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all are tahireen, sabireen and muqsiteen.

If anyone is away from their ma'rifah and their status, he should try his best to get rid of rijs, because it is rijs which has been kept away from these blessed personalities.

And yes, I can provide you the reference of 12 Imams from Qur'an as there are verses present where these blessed personalities some times introduced as mishkaat, zujaj, noorun ala noor, iddata ash-shahoor etc. 

A marjoos cannot get near to them neither he can get access to them. The reason of rijs, some times, related to their  inability to use intellect (wa yaj'al-ur-rijsa alallathina la ya'qeloon).

 

 

Let me phrase my question again.

The Shias claim that after the Prophet there had to be 12 (11 excluding Ali) Imams from his progeny. The Imams are infallible beings and its binding upon Muslims to follow them , so much so that Imamah is an article of faith. Can you provide any Quranic verse(s) which unequivocally substantiates this claim? You can refer to verses related to oneness of God , Prophethood of Muhammad and its finality , life hereafter , existence of angels to know what an unequivocal description is in Qur'an when it comes to articles of faith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

The Shias claim that after the Prophet there had to be 12 (11 excluding Ali) Imams from his progeny

It was not the claim of Shias but a hadith of Prophet (S). You can find it in both Shia/Sunni hadith books.

2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

The Imams are infallible beings and its binding upon Muslims to follow them

There are clear evidences for that in Qur'an and already quoted few verses on this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

You can refer to verses related to oneness of God , Prophethood of Muhammad and its finality , life hereafter , existence of angels to know what an unequivocal description is in Qur'an when it comes to articles of faith.

Since we believe Islam is perfect religion, perfected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it has a complete system of governance and Prophet (S) himself as well as Qur'an has introduced that system (I.e., wilayah/imamate).

This system comes under the clause/article "Prophethood of Muhammad (S)" yet it is in itself a seperate article of faith. Because it is linked with the obedience and submission to Prophet.

The verse 4:59, 5:55 etc are sufficient as evidence. Hadith of ghadeer is sufficient for evidence. And the efforts of people to weaken the chosen ones and their killings are sufficient as evidences.

Awwalona Muhammad, Awsatona Muhammad, Aakhirona Muhammad, Kullona Muhammad.

Hussaino minni wa ana min Hussain

The fsmous phrase of Prophet for ahlul kisa in hadith e kisa "innahum minni wa ana minhum"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Since we believe Islam is perfect religion, perfected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it has a complete system of governance and Prophet (S) himself as well as Qur'an has introduced that system (I.e., wilayah/imamate).

This system comes under the clause/article "Prophethood of Muhammad (S)" yet it is in itself a seperate article of faith. Because it is linked with the obedience and submission to Prophet.

The verse 4:59, 5:55 etc are sufficient as evidence. Hadith of ghadeer is sufficient for evidence. And the efforts of people to weaken the chosen ones and their killings are sufficient as evidences.

Awwalona Muhammad, Awsatona Muhammad, Aakhirona Muhammad, Kullona Muhammad.

Hussaino minni wa ana min Hussain

The fsmous phrase of Prophet for ahlul kisa in hadith e kisa "innahum minni wa ana minhum"

4:59 annuls infallibility for anyone other than God and his Prophet so that's an argument against Imamah. 5:55 has nothing to do with Imamah. See, if there was anything in the Qur'an about Imamah it would not have been that hard for you to pull it off. My point was that God supposedly inserted these far fetched whimsical Jafr codes in Qur'an but did not mention Imamah explicitly in any verse to make it as straight of a matter as Tawheed , Nabuwaah or Aakhira etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

4:59 annuls infallibility for anyone other than God and his Prophet so that's an argument against Imamah. 5:55 has nothing to do with Imamah. See, if there was anything in the Qur'an about Imamah it would not have been that hard for you to pull it off. My point was that God supposedly inserted these far fetched whimsical Jafr codes in Qur'an but did not mention Imamah explicitly in any verse to make it as straight of a matter as Tawheed , Nabuwaah or Aakhira etc

is Imamate mentioned in Holy Qur'an ? - Dr..Usama Al-Atar

Fatimia 2013-Imamate in the Qur'an -Lecture 1-Shaykh Amin Rastani

Aqa’id: How can we prove our belief about 12 Imams by Qur'an & Hadith

Imamate in Islam -Hajj Hasanain Rajabali |Lectur 15 Ramadan 1430 2009 [HD]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

4:59 annuls infallibility for anyone other than God and his Prophet so that's an argument against Imamah.

I haven't yet discussed infallibility issue. What has been said in reference to 4:59 is that there are ulil amr mentioned in there and their obedience has been made obligatory to us.

 

3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

This system comes under the clause/article "Prophethood of Muhammad (S)" yet it is in itself a seperate article of faith. Because it is linked with the obedience and submission to Prophet.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا
4:59

And what is mentioned in 4:60 is also important:

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَتَحَاكَمُوا إِلَى الطَّاغُوتِ وَقَدْ أُمِرُوا أَنْ يَكْفُرُوا بِهِ وَيُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُمْ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا 
4:60
 

25 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

5:55 has nothing to do with Imamah.

Yes how can you understand wilayah while you haven't yet reached to imamah!! 
 

27 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

See, if there was anything in the Qur'an about Imamah it would not have been that hard for you to pull it off.

It is not hard for me :) rather it is hard for you to accept the truth. Imamah has been mentioned as divine covenant and you're disagreeing, that's strange indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I haven't yet discussed infallibility issue. What has been said in reference to 4:59 is that there are ulil amr mentioned in there and their obedience has been made obligatory to us.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا
4:59

And what is mentioned in 4:60 is also important:

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَتَحَاكَمُوا إِلَى الطَّاغُوتِ وَقَدْ أُمِرُوا أَنْ يَكْفُرُوا بِهِ وَيُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُمْ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا 
4:60
 

Yes how can you understand wilayah while you haven't yet reached to imamah!! 
 

It is not hard for me :) rather it is hard for you to accept the truth. Imamah has been mentioned as divine covenant and you're disagreeing, that's strange indeed.

The Shia Imams , other than Ali for a brief period , were never "Ulil Amr" (people of authority). Secondly the verse clearly indicates that "Ulil Amr" must be someone fallible as one can differ with him and the matter shall against be taken to Allah and Prophet who are infallible ones. This verse clearly refutes the saga of infallibility. Wilayah and Imamah are concepts alien to Islam and human rational. The second verse you have quoted has nothing to do with Imamah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

The Shia Imams , other than Ali for a brief period , were never "Ulil Amr" (people of authority).

:) You can't understand Imamah really. Only the 12 Imams are the ulil amr (people vested with authority). 
 

23 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

Secondly the verse clearly indicates that "Ulil Amr" must be someone fallible as one can differ with him and the matter shall against be taken to Allah and Prophet who are infallible ones.

Again wrong!! 

You cannot differ with the ulil amr. How can you differ while it is the Prophet himself who is saying "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla"? Differ with Ali (asws) and get back to history to see Prophet's words. You will find that you're commanded to obey Ali (asws). Differ with any one of them & get back to Prophet to see his words "innahum minni wa ana minhum". 

28 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

This verse clearly refutes the saga of infallibility.

I say this verse proves the infallibility of ulil amr. Because Allah has commanded in this verse their obedience while in other places Allah has categorically prohibited us to obey "sinners and those who err". 

فَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا {24}

[Shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

 وَلَا تُطِيعُوا أَمْرَ الْمُسْرِفِينَ {151}

[Shakir 26:151] And do not obey the bidding of the extravagant,

وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَنْ ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

[Shakir 18:28] and do not follow him whose heart We have made unmindful to Our remembrance, and he follows his low desires and his case is one in which due bounds are exceeded.

And in chapter 96, after mentioning the few traits Allah has commanded us "كَلَّا لَا تُطِعْهُ" (Nay! obey him not) 

38 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

The second verse you have quoted has nothing to do with Imamah

You need to look at it with reference to verse 49 which mentions the Ulil Amr, the purified, infallible & just leaders. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

The word Imam [singular] has been mentioned 7 times as previously stated.

The word a'immah [plural] mentioned 5 times.

Why are you adding when Imam means one and a'immah means collection. This does not equal to 12 Imams as Imam has not been mentioned singularly 12 times.

1. The word Imam has been used 7 times in singular form it is agreed no doubt about it. But do you think Imam is Only One instead of 7 as per your belief?

2. The Imams are 12 as per Shia in the light of many hadith. The sum of count of plural from (5 times) and singular form (7 times) comes out to be 12.

3.. As far as names of 12 Imams are concerned it is further clarified that there are 4 Imams of name Ali, 3 Imams are of  name Muhamamd and this (4+3) sums upto 7.  There are 5 Imams including 2 of name Hassan., 1 each with the name Hussain, Jaafer  and  Musa. This total counts to 7 + 5 = 12. in relation to the representation mentioned in Qur'an.

4. Also there is no evidence provided (as asked in the last post) that the names of 7 Imams and the verse of Qur'an referring those 7 (as per sevener  belief) has the same number of letters. for verification of your claims.

Thus in the light of above your claims about the numbers of Imams to be 7 is rejected. This truly proves the count of Imams to be 12.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

You cannot differ with the ulil amr. How can you differ while it is the Prophet himself who is saying "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla"? Differ with Ali (asws) and get back to history to see Prophet's words. You will find that you're commanded to obey Ali (asws). Differ with any one of them & get back to Prophet to see his words "innahum minni wa ana minhum". 

For Shia the following verse provides the definition of Ulil Amr:

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their Prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:246)

Imam Ali is the most knowledgeable person in the ummah after the Prophet Muhamamd saww and he is the bravest man in all the battles of Islam.  Thus proving him ulil Amr as per the above verse of Qur'an undoubtedly..

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

The Shia Imams , other than Ali for a brief period , were never "Ulil Amr" (people of authority). Secondly the verse clearly indicates that "Ulil Amr" must be someone fallible as one can differ with him and the matter shall against be taken to Allah and Prophet who are infallible ones. This verse clearly refutes the saga of infallibility. Wilayah and Imamah are concepts alien to Islam and human rational. The second verse you have quoted has nothing to do with Imamah

It seems you mistaken being caliph or ruler with being ‘Ulil Amr’ but they have this authority either  be ruler or caliph  or not the caliphate & rulership is just head of iceberg that visible for us toward  their right & authurity matter (Ulil Amr) 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:) You can't understand Imamah really. Only the 12 Imams are the ulil amr (people vested with authority). 
 

Again wrong!! 

You cannot differ with the ulil amr. How can you differ while it is the Prophet himself who is saying "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla"? Differ with Ali (asws) and get back to history to see Prophet's words. You will find that you're commanded to obey Ali (asws). Differ with any one of them & get back to Prophet to see his words "innahum minni wa ana minhum". 

I say this verse proves the infallibility of ulil amr. Because Allah has commanded in this verse their obedience while in other places Allah has categorically prohibited us to obey "sinners and those who err". 

فَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا {24}

[Shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

 وَلَا تُطِيعُوا أَمْرَ الْمُسْرِفِينَ {151}

[Shakir 26:151] And do not obey the bidding of the extravagant,

وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَنْ ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

[Shakir 18:28] and do not follow him whose heart We have made unmindful to Our remembrance, and he follows his low desires and his case is one in which due bounds are exceeded.

And in chapter 96, after mentioning the few traits Allah has commanded us "كَلَّا لَا تُطِعْهُ" (Nay! obey him not) 

You need to look at it with reference to verse 49 which mentions the Ulil Amr, the purified, infallible & just leaders. 

"Ulil amr" explicitly means people of authority and the Shia Imams never had any authority except for the brief period of Ali. The verse is clearly stating that you can differ with "Ulil amr" and in such a case the absolute authority rests with Allah and his messenger. I wonder why are you arguing over such a clear verse which is very clearly saying that "Ulil amr" is not infallible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS :  You have posted segments of verses to make a point but that does not serve the purpose. Its like cherry picking from Shakespeare plays to prove that he was a momin. Whatever God intends to say in the Qur'an , says it explicitly and if Imamah is an article of faith for Muslims , it would have been explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

"Ulil amr" explicitly means people of authority and the Shia Imams never had any authority except for the brief period of Ali. The verse is clearly stating that you can differ with "Ulil amr" and in such a case the absolute authority rests with Allah and his messenger. I wonder why are you arguing over such a clear verse which is very clearly saying that "Ulil amr" is not infallible.

The authority of Ulil Amr comes form Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance of the people whether he is apparently in power government caliphate  or he does not have that apparent power but he is still ulil Amr and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like the Prophets. Out of those Prophets only few governed in land but they were chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)..

I like to see a simple verse of Qur'an mentioning that Ulil Amr means a people  chosen caliph / Imam / successor of the Prophet saww instead of chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Would you like to quote for clarity the verse for and the example of Ulil Amr that was chosen by the people for their guidance instead of chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the Qur'an?

 

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

"Ulil amr" explicitly means people of authority and the Shia Imams never had any authority except for the brief period of Ali. The verse is clearly stating that you can differ with "Ulil amr" and in such a case the absolute authority rests with Allah and his messenger. I wonder why are you arguing over such a clear verse which is very clearly saying that "Ulil amr" is not infallible.

 

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

For Shia the following verse provides the definition of Ulil Amr:

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their Prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:246)

Imam Ali is the most knowledgeable person in the ummah after the Prophet Muhamamd saww and he is the bravest man in all the battles of Islam.  Thus proving him ulil Amr as per the above verse of Qur'an undoubtedly..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4:59 dismisses the infallibility of "Ulil amr" and its so clear that even the early Shia scholars could see it. Hence in al kafi  there is a Hadith which deals with this contradiction by ascribing it to Tehreeg in Qur'an.

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ قَالَ تَلَا أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَ أَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ تَنَازُعاً فِي الْأَمْرِ فَأَرْجِعُوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَ إِلَى أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ثُمَّ قَالَ كَيْفَ يَأْمُرُ بِطَاعَتِهِمْ وَ يُرَخِّصُ فِي مُنَازَعَتِهِمْ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ذَلِكَ لِلْمَأْمُورِينَ الَّذِينَ قِيلَ لَهُمْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَ أَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ

Means that the second part of the verse "Once you differ with Ulil amr then refer it back to Allah and his messenger" was revealed as "Once you differ with the Ulil amr then refer it back to Allah , his messenger and the Ulil amr" :sign_welcome:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

For Shia the following verse provides the definition of Ulil Amr:

وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا ۚ قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ ۚ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

And their Prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:246)

Imam Ali is the most knowledgeable person in the ummah after the Prophet Muhamamd saww and he is the bravest man in all the battles of Islam.  Thus proving him ulil Amr as per the above verse of Qur'an undoubtedly..

Though it does not derive from that verse but Imam Ali was "Ulil amr" for a brief period of time. I have already ceded that. But that's not the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

1. The word Imam has been used 7 times in singular form it is agreed no doubt about it. But do you think Imam is Only One instead of 7 as per your belief?

2. The Imams are 12 as per Shia in the light of many hadith. The sum of count of plural from (5 times) and singular form (7 times) comes out to be 12.

3.. As far as names of 12 Imams are concerned it is further clarified that there are 4 Imams of name Ali, 3 Imams are of  name Muhamamd and this (4+3) sums upto 7.  There are 5 Imams including 2 of name Hassan., 1 each with the name Hussain, Jaafer  and  Musa. This total counts to 7 + 5 = 12. in relation to the representation mentioned in Qur'an.

4. Also there is no evidence provided (as asked in the last post) that the names of 7 Imams and the verse of Qur'an referring those 7 (as per sevener  belief) has the same number of letters. for verification of your claims.

Thus in the light of above your claims about the numbers of Imams to be 7 is rejected. This truly proves the count of Imams to be 12.

wasalam

1. I don't believe in 7 Imams. Just made an observation that Imam [singular] is mentioned 7 times. 7 x 1 = ...7.

2. 7 single apples, plus 5 bags of apples, doesn't equal 12 apples.

3. Yes, 12 names will have a total count of... 12.

4. I'm not acquainted with Jafr codes and don't feel the need to either. Alas, I don't have the means to rebuttal nor verify your mathematics. Religion should be simple. Man has complicated it. One shouldn't need to perform such gymnastics to prove a fundamental belief.

Fi Amanillah

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The authority of Ulil Amr comes form Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance of the people whether he is apparently in power government caliphate  or he does not have that apparent power but he is still ulil Amr and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like the Prophets. Out of those Prophets only few governed in land but they were chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)..

I like to see a simple verse of Qur'an mentioning that Ulil Amr means a people  chosen caliph / Imam / successor of the Prophet saww instead of chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Would you like to quote for clarity the verse for and the example of Ulil Amr that was chosen by the people for their guidance instead of chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the Qur'an?

The answers to the questions are still awaited. @Leibniz

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...